Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Arlo1 » Aug 05, 2011 3:30 pm

Gordo wrote:To be clear; All of the chains I have broken and have seen broken, happened while either drag racing or hill climbing. The chains just spooled off on the ground.

I did a search for info and found 134 reasons for a Darwin Award;

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u651412p0570p214/

Cleaning the chain while it is in motion. :shock: :shock: :shock:
Yup had a instructor from college who lost hi finger that way.

I have seen 10's of 1000s of broken chains and never an injury form it. But there is chain gaurds on the bikes to help prevent the injurys.... I have seen lots of busted engine cases from snaped chains and I can imagine a few car winsheilds as well. The Chain on the nitro bike gets x amount of runs before it gets replaced.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by inspiredvoltfreak » Aug 07, 2011 7:46 pm

Just wanted to post the most up to date pic. It's also my updated avatar.
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Not much happened with the bike this weekend. Feeling very tired. Will hopefully finish the preliminary covering of the body panels this week.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Whiplash » Aug 09, 2011 11:12 pm

Lookin good! Keep it up, you are really close now!!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by inspiredvoltfreak » Sep 12, 2011 1:00 am

Update: I just completed a motorcycle riding course today at 4:30 with Pacific Riding School in Surrey. What a blast. Completed their night school B program which means i was at class from 6:30 to 11:00 every night after finishing at work. Works out to 5 18 hour days in a row for me with work schedule and commuting included. Follow that up with 6.5 hours saturday and 5.5 hours today. I have completed my MSA and only have to show it to ICBC and I will be able to take the bike on the road for the first time. I am getting insurance on it tomorrow and my first ride should be in the evening. This project has been such a journey. So much I would do differently now. Wish I could do it all over again having done the course first.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Hillhater » Sep 12, 2011 1:19 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote: ...I have completed my MSA and only have to show it to ICBC and I will be able to take the bike on the road for the first time. ....
did the bike have to be tested / inspected / certified ?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by adrian_sm » Sep 12, 2011 1:23 am

Great. You must be pretty excited.
inspiredvoltfreak wrote:So much I would do differently now. Wish I could do it all over again having done the course first.
For those following in your footsteps... What would you do differently?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by inspiredvoltfreak » Sep 20, 2011 3:39 pm

Ok, so here we go. Unfortunate reality is this. I got my motorcycle license and have tried the bike out briefly, but a problem presented itself. With the bike theoretically geared for about 80kph it speeds fairly slow, let's say 10 sec to 50kph and then really slow acceleration after that. I have had a lot of trouble with my ammeters blowing up as soon as they are connected so I have yet to get an accurate reading on the current going to my motor or from my batteries. I just got a different meter in the mail yesterday night and have not tried installing it yet but from putting a volt meter on my shunt i get about 45ma voltage max during acceleration. This is on a 500A 75mv shunt. So figure thats around 300 Amps assuming 500A=75mv on the shunt. (Not sure if thats what the rating means). But I only get up to around 35 to 45 volts max coming out of my controller and it starts out from around 10V and slowly climbs at a steady rate. Considering my bike is 72V I dont think I should be getting 27 volts of drop by pulling 300A on a 115ah pack. I could be wrong. I want to bypass te controller and hook the bateries direct for a test to rule out that my controller is not causing the problem. By the way my controller is a Kelly rated for 72V 400Max ad I am confident t is programmed properly.

As to adrian_sm's question:
1. Would not build a Trike! (Wish i'd taken my motorcycle riding course first, my opinion on motorcycle safety is totally different post course)
2. Would build it one of two ways
2A. Build bike with smaller possibly Lithium batteries onboard for short range fun (removable for charging) and then build a removable side car with leaning parallelogram suspension and the same big heavy lead acids for longer range commute.
2B. Build bike with smaller possibly Lithium batteries onboard for short range fun (removable for charging) and thenbuild a tow behind trailer with the same big heavy lead acids for longer range commute.

By going with the trike i sacrificed bout 100lbs to an extra wheel assembly, cv joints, and differential. I also created a bike that is not much fun to ride as it does not lean and requires a heavy push on the handle bars to corner at even 50kph.

I have Spent due to my mistakes a little shy of what i could have spent on a zero s motorcycle an there is a dealer in Vancouver for those bikes so i could have even test driven it before deciding. I now have a bike that weighs twice as much and goes "half the range (Theoretically)"

Needless to say I am disappointed with the result. I have not completely given up on saving it yet as I believe there is more that can be done.

Now, Questions to my readers.

1. Anyone using me 0709 motor or similar please provide Vehicle weight, range on charge, battery voltage and ahours for comparison

2. Please analyze data and give feedback on this guys build compared to mine. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/sh ... 44725.html
Compared with my bike his rolling weight is 892lbs an took him up a %10 gradient at over 65kph.
Mine is rolling weight 750lbs and barely maintains 60kph on the flat.

I am considering getting another frame and starting over mounting 4 batts in engine compartment, 2 as saddle bags and motor on rear swing arm, I am confident I could shave off 100lbs or more this way but I'm not sure what difference it would really make on the flats. Hill helper of course, that's a given.

Appreciate any insights.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by flathill » Sep 20, 2011 3:49 pm

Drop the lead acid and run it in reverse. Trikes are only stable when the two tires are up front. Almost killed myself on one of these when I was about 11 (urban offroading down the 20 set stairs at a high school in the city):
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Gordo » Sep 20, 2011 4:28 pm

Nathan;
Very first and biggest point, in my oppinion, is my total admiration for what you have built. To even suggest it is a failure, is very wrong. The value is in what you have learned, not it the fact that it only does 50% of what a store bought machine can do for the same cost.
My first electric vehicle was a scooter. A tremendous bargain, with good speed and range. All I learned from it was that an EV far surpassed my expectations.
But this got me interested in lighter, bike type, of transportation.
I feel I have learned a great deal from reading ES for hours.
I hope you will have the time and opportunity to ride a tilting trike, before you go to all the trouble of building one? I have ridden motorcycles all my life and have had ridden several trikes and sidecars, but not a tilting one. My guess is a tilting trike is still a trike and still a POS. I hope someone with experience will chime in and give some incite. What do they do when you hammer the brakes? What do they do when you hammer the brakes in a corner, or in the rain, or with one wheel on the oil patch you find at every intersection? What do they do when you accelerate in a corner? Sorry to be so negative, but I have never dumped a 2 wheel bike except when playing the fool in the dirt, in the gravel, or when the frame broke. Maybe I haven't ridden a conventional trike or sidecar enough, but I have been sufficiently frightened on both and seen other experienced riders really badly wrecked on them.
The only disadvantage of a tadpole trike seems to be spinning the rear wheel in the oil patch or breaking loose under hard acceleration, in a corner. This does not have to mean a disaster, just a little wake-up call.
Like the guys say, one test is worth a 1000 opinions. Go test these alternatives before you waste one more grey cell or spend one more dollar.
Thanks for taking the time to fully document your build and your findings.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Arlo1 » Sep 20, 2011 7:45 pm

flathill wrote:Drop the lead acid and run it in reverse. Trikes are only stable when the two tires are up front. Almost killed myself on one of these when I was about 11
Guns are dangerous too when you point them at your own head and pull the trigger! :roll:
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RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Hillhater » Sep 20, 2011 9:12 pm

...But I only get up to around 35 to 45 volts max coming out of my controller and it starts out from around 10V and slowly climbs at a steady rate. Considering my bike is 72V I dont think I should be getting 27 volts of drop by pulling 300A on a 115ah pack.
You cannot measure the voltage out of the controller ..its not DC there.
try measuring the battery voltage under load. and find a way of monitoring the current accurately.
..+ dont assume the controller setting are 100% as they need to be.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Gordo » Sep 20, 2011 10:02 pm

Arlo1 wrote:Guns are dangerous too when you point them at your own head and pull the trigger! :roll:
"One test is worth 1000 opinions." When will you do THAT test? :lol:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Arlo1 » Sep 20, 2011 11:09 pm

Gordo wrote:
Arlo1 wrote:Guns are dangerous too when you point them at your own head and pull the trigger! :roll:
"One test is worth 1000 opinions." When will you do THAT test? :lol:
When IM the last Ev riding/driving human and big oil is trying to corrupt me once again!
My Leaf motor controller build. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=63982&p=963227#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by inspiredvoltfreak » Sep 20, 2011 11:46 pm

First off, thanks to Gordo! Your a real encouragement. I don't feel it is a total loss. I do value the experience. I'm just not sure if I will be able to commit money to a project like this again. At least not for many years.
Hillhater wrote:
...But I only get up to around 35 to 45 volts max coming out of my controller and it starts out from around 10V and slowly climbs at a steady rate. Considering my bike is 72V I dont think I should be getting 27 volts of drop by pulling 300A on a 115ah pack.
You cannot measure the voltage out of the controller ..its not DC there.
try measuring the battery voltage under load. and find a way of monitoring the current accurately.
..+ dont assume the controller setting are 100% as they need to be.
Correct me if i'm wrong but it is DC it is just pulsed DC. I know my meter is not quick enough to see the thousands of on off cycles and so sees it as a steady voltage somewhere in between. Should i not however see close to 72 volts if i was giving it 95-100% duty cycle? The reason this concerns me is that voltage affects torque and horsepower and though this controller does have a soft start feature I would still expect it to hit the motor hard after a short delay. This controller never hits hard it just climbs slowly maybe 2 to 3 volts per second. I must confess my test drives have been extremely short and have not kept the throttle on for more than 1 minute as i did not have an ammeter and don't want to fry anything. I will post more results after a thorough test drive likely this weekend.

I have a specific question i'd like you all to weigh in on. Do you think switching frames back to 2 wheel and losing around 100lbs would make a significant difference, or would I just be wasting my time and more of my resources?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Hillhater » Sep 20, 2011 11:53 pm

Losing weight will help acceleration and hill climbing ( a little ?) , but wont do anything for speed.
check the electrics, (battery, controller, etc) thoroughly first , before you do anything dramatic.
Try to talk to Kelly also ?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by johnhead@frontiernet.net » Sep 21, 2011 10:31 am

I do not agree with a trike only being stable with two wheels up front. Check out my very stable Stealth E-3 which is a leaning 3 wheeler.
@ http://www.evalbum.com/3367

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by flathill » Sep 21, 2011 2:24 pm

johnhead@frontiernet.net wrote:I do not agree with a trike only being stable with two wheels up front. Check out my very stable Stealth E-3 which is a leaning 3 wheeler.
@ http://www.evalbum.com/3367
Awesome John! Are you related to Dr. Richard Head. JK :) You're right leaning trikes are more stable. Kinda like the Dodge Tomahawk:
Image

Normal trikes are fine for putting around the city
If you want to have some fun and reverse the CBR as I suggested here's a rear steering tadpole:

Just promise not to take it on the freeway and watch the rail road tracks
crazy awesome maneuverability for an urban enviro

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by johnhead@frontiernet.net » Sep 21, 2011 8:16 pm

Great old clip. Was that Amelia Earhart in the dark one? Looked like her?

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Gordo » Sep 22, 2011 3:20 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote: I have a specific question i'd like you all to weigh in on. Do you think switching frames back to 2 wheel and losing around 100lbs would make a significant difference, or would I just be wasting my time and more of my resources?
Before giving any help with this question, we have to ask what is the purpose of this vehicle. You started out building a rig to commute on. Is what you ended up with totally unsuitable? If not, ride it an get some of your money back in the form of savings. If so, what is you distance and will 2 wheels with your available parts, make the trip? You have dug yourself a little bit of a hole buying the lead, but maybe what you have will work? If it won't, you might consider an e-pedal bike (it is not a push bike no matter how many retarded DP's call it one). If this is a transportation solution for you, there is tons of help here on how to get going at minimum cost.
Let us know what is what?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by flathill » Sep 22, 2011 9:01 pm

johnhead@frontiernet.net wrote:Great old clip. Was that Amelia Earhart in the dark one? Looked like her?
Good eyes! Yes they were good friends. She helped him get national coverage at White House by earlier making it her official vehicle when she accepted her Gold Metal of the National Geo Society

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by inspiredvoltfreak » Sep 25, 2011 8:06 pm

Gordo wrote:Before giving any help with this question, we have to ask what is the purpose of this vehicle. You started out building a rig to commute on. Is what you ended up with totally unsuitable? If not, ride it an get some of your money back in the form of savings. If so, what is you distance and will 2 wheels with your available parts, make the trip? You have dug yourself a little bit of a hole buying the lead, but maybe what you have will work? If it won't, you might consider an e-pedal bike (it is not a push bike no matter how many retarded DP's call it one). If this is a transportation solution for you, there is tons of help here on how to get going at minimum cost.
Let us know what is what?
Ok, My commute is approximately 50 kilometers and half of that is on the 99 so i need top speed of 80kph :) at least or 100kph :D to not be a nuisance. :oops: Geared for 80kph I can't actually get that fast, i can get to 70 but it takes a reeeeaaaaally long time and wouldn't maintain on a hill. I suspect as is I could gear it for 65kph but that's about max. I would have a lot less rolling resistance with 2 wheels and no differential/cv shafts so I'd guess I might be able to gear it for 80kph and actually get there? But acceleration would still be very slow I doubt it would maintain on a hill, and it would be unsuitable for the 99.

I did some more testing today and if I pin the throttle the bike pulls hard 350 amps for less than a second and then drops quickly down to about 200A and slowly from there down to about 100a which is what it takes to maintain 65kph on a level surface.

I was having issues as well under hard acceleration with the motor suddenly cutting out which i didnt understand at first and though I had a loose connection on the throttle, it's actually current roll back. The controller is backing off to save the fets.

I also tried jacking the back end off the ground and going full throttle. At full throttle I am seeing 68V at the motor with my meter and it takes a measly 20 amps or so to keep the wheels going once at speed.

I am still surprised to see the voltage at the motor increase with the speed of the motor, I would expect it to increase to near 72 with "full throttle" almost instantly but it's like a speedometer. case and point I can say that 46v at the motor under a pinned throttle is approx 50kph. If I see 46v I don't need a speedometer. Anyone know why that is? Is it like that on your vehicles? Voltage increases torque, max speed and horsepower so why not give it 72 V at full throttle and then ramp up the amps as back up? It makes me wonder if my controller has a problem or if a different controller would give better performance?

I would expect 50% throttle to give 36v at motor and 100% throttle to give 72V but 100% throttle gives a voltage that increases in proportion to speed of motor. :?:

A lot of information so I'll leave it at that for now.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by Gordo » Sep 25, 2011 8:37 pm

Someone with experience measuring the voltage at the motor needs to chime in. I don't trust your measurement. I would want to use my scope to see the actual amplitude and pulse width before I came to any conclusion as to what is going on with your controller.
I will be home in my shop in a few days and will make some measurements.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by amberwolf » Sep 25, 2011 11:50 pm

You won't see full voltage at the motor unless you are out of the current-limiting band of the controller. Any time it is limitng current, it MUST do so by PWMing the voltage to the motor, which means you have less than the full battery voltage there by the proportion of the PWM duty cycle.

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by inspiredvoltfreak » Sep 26, 2011 2:50 am

amberwolf wrote:You won't see full voltage at the motor unless you are out of the current-limiting band of the controller. Any time it is limitng current, it MUST do so by PWMing the voltage to the motor, which means you have less than the full battery voltage there by the proportion of the PWM duty cycle.
Excellent! That makes perfect sense, should have been obvious but totally understandable now. Thanks!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Post by inspiredvoltfreak » Sep 28, 2011 10:49 pm

teddillard wrote:I got this from John at Motenergy (Mars): "Note that these motors are set for CCW rotation. The efficiency in the CW direction is not as good due to the timing adjustment on the motor. If you need CW rotation, then the timing needs to be adjusted."

He also sent me some new higher voltage dyno plots for the ME0709. I posted them here:
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2011/09/17/n ... 0709-mars/
Saw this post on https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... rs#p463417 and had to wonder? I'm not at liberty to go down to my bike right now but I cant recall which way my motor turns???? As it is going into a differential and I cant remember if the ring gear is on the left or right I have no way to deduce it either. I hadn't thought of playing with timing. Anyone think it would make a difference worth having? I remember playing with timing on a smaller dc motor when I was younger and I could get that thing spinning so fast it would sit there and bounce up and down on the shaft like a top without me holding it. I know the motors have a small band of efficiency and i don't want to stray from that but can't help but wonder what moving the brushes 5 degrees would do. Anyone? P.S. I'll check my motor direction asap.
Last edited by inspiredvoltfreak on Sep 29, 2011 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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