Suzuki RF400E, now with Enertrac MHM602

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marcexec
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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Apr 30, 2014 7:29 am

Just USPS - feel free to send me a PM (I really don't mind), this is derailing the thread a little.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by zEEz » Apr 30, 2014 7:44 am

marcexec wrote:Just USPS - feel free to send me a PM (I really don't mind), this is derailing the thread a little.
Ok. thanx. no more battery shipping questions on this thread :mrgreen:
But, since you plan to put 12 modules, are you not worryied to blow the motor
if using lot of power for long time?
Or you plan something bigger in the future? 8)

have fun
from 1A-1S to 300A-16S ESC ^_^ 3g to 10Kg brushless motors ... 3W to 15kW

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Apr 30, 2014 9:35 am

I'll be using a thermometer to monitor :).
In seriousness, the design allows for a 2nd 80-100 and the batteries will be placed so a Colossus or Motenergy type (usually 200mm) motor can be added.
Pics to follow on (further) gearbox modification.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by zEEz » Apr 30, 2014 11:12 am

marcexec wrote:I'll be using a thermometer to monitor :).
In seriousness, the design allows for a 2nd 80-100 and the batteries will be placed so a Colossus or Motenergy type (usually 200mm) motor can be added.
Pics to follow on (further) gearbox modification.
hehe :shock:
if you want to stay with infineon controller, you are probably limited to motenergy, inductance wise.
otherwise sevcon + pms120 motor would be wise choice ( tomaj is selling in forum for reasonable price) for
your frame and leaf battery. I was tempted myself, but I still have a me907 and infineon 36fet to put to
good use. I plan to convert an enduro 2stroke 125, sooner or later, with Leaf module hopefully.
I plan to preserve the gearbox, probably reduced from 6 to 3 gears .... if luck help.
Clutch is already dry and cosy. :mrgreen:
from 1A-1S to 300A-16S ESC ^_^ 3g to 10Kg brushless motors ... 3W to 15kW

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » May 05, 2014 5:29 pm

hehe :shock:
if you want to stay with infineon controller, you are probably limited to motenergy, inductance wise.
otherwise sevcon + pms120 motor would be wise choice ( tomaj is selling in forum for reasonable price) for
your frame and leaf battery. I was tempted myself, but I still have a me907 and infineon 36fet to put to
good use. I plan to convert an enduro 2stroke 125, sooner or later, with Leaf module hopefully.
I plan to preserve the gearbox, probably reduced from 6 to 3 gears .... if luck help.
Clutch is already dry and cosy. :mrgreen:
Cheers. Sounds like an interesting project. Would you go 60Ah, too?
I still have 2x 80100s in my mind for some reason. Could test different setups etc. Take one off for a rewind. You get the idea. Who knows about stage 2. Need to get her on the road now to save me some gas first, though :)

Some good news about the wiring harness that came with the 3rd box, it seems to be able to fit with the intended placing, maybe with some slight modification:
ImageImage

Also a little progress report on the gearbox. Cut a bit off that was not necessary and allowed me to re-seal the bottom plate. Had a bit of oil assembling in the open front compartment, probably after I dropped it once (LL: always put in the top bolt in first, it will swivel on the bottom one...). Fingers crossed the leak wasn't anywhere else. It wasn't pressure-related either. Filled it up to middle level now and will watch overnight. Next will be to tilt it to check the upper plates. ~120h in total in the gearbox now... Some pics:
ImageImageImageImage
An yes, I have moved the workbench (garage in new house) and built it up a little more :)
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by zEEz » May 06, 2014 3:25 pm

marcexec wrote: Cheers. Sounds like an interesting project. Would you go 60Ah, too?
I still have 2x 80100s in my mind for some reason. Could test different setups etc. Take one off for a rewind. You get the idea. Who knows about stage 2. Need to get her on the road now to save me some gas first, though :)
Hehe, nono, for the beginning I would like to keep the bike as light as possible: just 4 modules!
Great if you plan to double - charge your bike. If you double rewind each 80-100, you could use 4 Lyen controllers
in total and possibly hide the 2 motors inside an aluminium tube to provide forced cooling :twisted:

I'm toying with the idea to use a CVT instead of the original engine geartrain (too heavy):
Image

EDIT: no Cvt and I'll keep the modules at 60 Ah ... so I bought 7 of them in total, to put in series.
3.6KWh is a serious amount of juice. I still look around for the right frame, to keep modification
to the structure at a minimum. I have an aprilia enduro 125, but I am considering an offroad frame
for the 50 enduro class that is far easier to deal with in order to use it like a legal bike and to minimize
insurance and taxes to pay ..... :roll:



have fun!
from 1A-1S to 300A-16S ESC ^_^ 3g to 10Kg brushless motors ... 3W to 15kW

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Jun 19, 2014 6:34 am

making slow progress:

Bottom battery frame is done, so is the mounting bracket to the gearbox bar 4 holes.

The adapter plate has been modified to support 2 motors close to the gearbox body with 500 and 575mm belts respectively which have arrived.
That way I get the space for the front 8 modules, roughly where the radiator used to be.
Also disassembled motor as the torque made it slip on the shaft will be reworked to have 4 set screws instead of 2 previously.
Pics to follow.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Jun 30, 2014 4:06 pm

Gearbox mods are done for now, so is the adapter plate (long holes to put the belt on, then tigthen it). Also cut a little bit off to allow for 2 stack of 4 modules. Lower pack (2x2)in and fastened (rear bracket to frame mount, front bracket mounted to lower gearbox). Made a precise mockup of 4x2 modules (137mm x 303 (315 with terminals) mm x 448mm). It will just fit with the terminals on the bottom. 15mm to spare to front fork on full compression (tested with ratchting tension belt).

Now to the pics in chronological order:
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

Next: have to find s.o. in Dublin to fabricate the front battery frame, preferably from aluminium
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Jun 30, 2014 4:57 pm

Threw together a quick Sketchup of the battery box, enjoy:
ImageImage
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Jul 18, 2014 2:40 pm

parts for front battery box have arrived:
ImageImage

just need to get them welded together now :)
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Sep 03, 2014 2:54 pm

Well, we might finally be approaching v1.0 (as EVs are never done - they can only be driven at some point, according to a signature :)).
Finally got my battery box - only had to send it back 2 times for corrections... (Desired internal measurements were not passed on so that the "top" was placed between the two "sides". The 2 "strips" were then raised which still left the box too wide.) The quality of the welds is good, though.
I had to file them off where the mounts go:
Image
Which had to be swapped left to right, leaving the fairing mount in the way:
Image
Wich makes a nice, tight fit (M10 bolts), requiring no washers:
ImageImageImageImage
adding the mounts for the 8 AESC modules:
Image
small mod on the plastic holders:
Image
Any suggestions on the torque?
Image
:D
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Sep 29, 2014 3:25 pm

I had the batteries in for a while now, wired everything up and hit the limits of the motor/controller combo:
90-100V battery side x 130 RPM/V of the Turnigy is about twice what - according to knowledgeable soruces on a highly regarded forum we all know - the motor should run at (saturation issues etc.).
The bike would run around the garden but the controller cuts out an any significant load or brisk accelleration.

So the natural next step was to re-terminate from delta to WYE, dropping the KV to 75. Unfortunately the windings are epoxied "to the neck" - the middle phase actually having about 1/4th of the strands broken already. Trying to pull it apart showed me that that I would be looking at a full rewind...

I'm shopping for motors now. :roll:
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by gwhy! » Oct 01, 2014 5:35 am

What controller are you using ?.. I don't know how much it will all cost but if you wanted to pay for postage to the uk plus materials I would rewind your motor for you.. drop me a PM ?.

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Oct 01, 2014 2:24 pm

gwhy! wrote:What controller are you using ?.. I don't know how much it will all cost but if you wanted to pay for postage to the uk plus materials I would rewind your motor for you.. drop me a PM ?.
Appreciate it gwhy! - have a look at the paperweight on my desk - might give it a try myself before resorting to a specialist:
Image :)
I have a spool of coated wire somewhere (donated to me because of our hobby) - maybe I can make that work.
I also have a KV 80 motor ordered from Alien - I planned for 2 anyway, didn't I? :lol:
As per https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30&t=20618, the motor saturates around 9500 rpm (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 00#p423355), so at 24s / 100V we shoud aim for a KV of 80-90 rpm/V, correct?
Table:
Thud wrote: I've been trying to reverse engineer the constant to estimate the Kv for this size motor, based on the sparse data we have at the moment. This is what I've come up with in terms of turns and Kv:

Turns - Kv
1 - 1060
2 - 530
3 - 353
4 - 265
5 - 212
6 - 177
7 - 151
8 - 132
9 - 118
10 - 106
11 - 96
12 - 88
13 - 82
14 - 76

These figures are pretty much the best fit I can get to the known data points, and they would apply equally to someone rewinding an 80-100 motor

Again, Thanks to Jeremy Harris.

I have found this chart to be super accurate with the 80/100 turnigy's & all RPM's are assumed terminated in Delta...
for a lower RPM "Wye" termination, divide by 1.73 to get your new Kv example- 132/1.73= 76-Kv
That leads us to 7 turns in WYE (preferred) or 12-13 turns in delta
Last edited by marcexec on Feb 07, 2015 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Oct 01, 2014 3:46 pm

found it, so maybe from this:
Image
to this:
Image
looks like .8mm net, so around 20AWG

Edit: played around with DriveCalc:
Image
7 turns of 7-wires-in-hand sounds like an exercise in patience or a world of pain...
Opinions?
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by parabellum » Oct 01, 2014 4:43 pm

marcexec wrote:to this:

looks like .8mm net, so around 20AWG
To me it looks more like 1.18mm, so 17AWG :D

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by gwhy! » Oct 01, 2014 6:06 pm

yes it do look bigger than 0.8mm

and you will never fit the max number of turns per tooth that drivecal states, not saying that it not possible but very,very difficult. I would say if it is 1.18mm then number of P wires should be 2 ..

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Oct 02, 2014 2:43 pm

Drivecalc says 5 :) - found the source It think: http://www.brocott.co.uk/enamelled-copp ... 8-500.html
I'll check how much turns I can actually fit around 2 teeth. One test is worth 1000...
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by gwhy! » Oct 02, 2014 3:29 pm

marcexec wrote:Drivecalc says 5 :) - found the source It think: http://www.brocott.co.uk/enamelled-copp ... 8-500.html
I'll check how much turns I can actually fit around 2 teeth. One test is worth 1000...
yes 5 in a ideal world but soon as you start going over 2 layers it becomes very difficult, I would always look at around 1.5 layers as a max .. but having said that I use 1.4 and 1.5mm wire so you maybe able to fit 2 layers with ease with 1.18mm but the 3rd layer will start to become a nightmare :D . Yes doing a test is always the best thing to do..

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Oct 03, 2014 2:26 pm

Was able to fit 23 - sanity check by my wife - I wouldn't be objective...
so 7 turns, 3-in-hand it is:
Image
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by gwhy! » Oct 03, 2014 2:42 pm

marcexec wrote:Was able to fit 23 - sanity check by my wife - I wouldn't be objective...
so 7 turns, 3-in-hand it is:
Image
2 layers of 3 strands :D

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Oct 15, 2014 2:24 pm

In the meantime I:
- got my replacement motor from Alien Power Systems
- replaced the shaft with the 2nd one I had made here (lesson learned: even using a hairdryer is enough heat to make it very easy to tap out the old shaft and slide in the new one)
- removed the skirt bearing
- put in the hall sensors - 4A no load now on 96V lead 8)
- put it on the bike, now facing a small speedbump:
Image
:(
off shopping again...
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Oct 21, 2014 4:47 pm

I'm calling version 1.0 now:
Image
She's allowed to the front door now.
Took her for a test ride through the neigborhood:
- 3km, used 1.1Ah
- 3.5kW peak pulled (controller amp limit set at 40A)
- peak of 60km/h
- the new motor's temp: 15°C -> 32°C after the run
- changing gears was never so much fun :D
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by Bernel » Oct 22, 2014 12:31 pm

Nice job Marc good to see you got it going.

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Oct 23, 2014 1:31 am

Thanks.
Took her to work and back yesterday. Way in is uphill and the power limit was a bit annoying on a stretch where everybody is a little faster than allowed, got overtaken by 3 cars. Motor topped out at 60°C which is not unexpected as it's completely sheltered by the front battery pack. The Lyne 12FET is literally hanging in the wind and got barely warm. Also the TA is still on the bench.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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