Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by skeetab5780 » Jun 18 2019 8:12am

Dui, ni shuo de dui wrote:
Jun 17 2019 9:01pm
It might be a little late, but to solve your magnet problem, have you thought about using some kevlar wire all around the rotor?
Just dip them in epoxy and as long as they don't touch the stator there should be no way that your magnets will fly off again.
that could work? ive never worked with Kevlar and have no clue how thin it could be but there is not much room for error in these motors, they don't work very well at low rpm either unless you use the stock controller. Very odd setup

if anything I would probably try to adapt a stronger motor to the bike, but there is nowhere to put it except exactly where it is...

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by Elect Ron » Jun 18 2019 9:34am

skeetab5780 wrote:
Jun 18 2019 7:32am
Yes I have chargers for the Nimh batteries but they are likely toast and you probably shouldn't use them(if you want one for kicks PM me). I would use the original housing and get a custom 18650 lithium pack for them the 36v models run on 10s lithium. If you run them any higher like 12s then the on board dc dc converter will cut out and stop output of power to accessories which can get annoying.

I can almost guaranty the bikes will power up and work fine with a new battery, the easiest way is to take off the left side cover to expose the controller and tap the new battery into the red and black fat battery lead wires going into the battery compartment off the controller board.
OK but wouldn't it be easier to put a Li pack into the original battery sleeve, and just stuff the extra space with styrofoam or something? I really don't want to mess with new connectors and wires if I can avoid it. I also want the battery to be removable so my wife can take it into her office to recharge.

I think the seller is annoyed with himself for misplacing those chargers and will probably find them eventually. He had all the paperwork in a neat folder, and all four keys.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering how to cobble up a 36V supply just to see if the motors even spin. I don't have three car batteries lying around. Guess I could grab a couple of old 18V tool batteries at a thrift store or yard sale.

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Jun 18 2019 9:14pm

skeetab5780 wrote:
Jun 18 2019 8:12am
Dui, ni shuo de dui wrote:
Jun 17 2019 9:01pm
It might be a little late, but to solve your magnet problem, have you thought about using some kevlar wire all around the rotor?
Just dip them in epoxy and as long as they don't touch the stator there should be no way that your magnets will fly off again.
that could work? ive never worked with Kevlar and have no clue how thin it could be but there is not much room for error in these motors, they don't work very well at low rpm either unless you use the stock controller. Very odd setup

if anything I would probably try to adapt a stronger motor to the bike, but there is nowhere to put it except exactly where it is...
I never tried myself and it was just a wild thought, but I searched afterwards and it seems like some companies are actually doing it so I guess it does work.
An alternative could be to use some carbon fiber wire, which is easier to find and very cheap, so I'd say go for that instead.
https://www.arnoldmagnetics.com/product ... psulation/

Yes, it is extremely thin, thinner than a hair actually. If you wrap it tight and take your time to avoid the fibers crossing each other I think the size difference will barely be noticeable. Pretty sure it could work, the only important things would be:
1) to wind the carbon as tight as possible, so build some kind of jig (a crank fixed on the rotor shaft, two planks and it's done)
2) to use some high temp epoxy, so that it can last a long time. That shouldn't be an issue, a lot of motor windings are epoxied so I think it should be easy to find.
3)Make sure that your bearings are still OK, if you have any play in them then the carbon might come into contact with the iron of the coils.

It shouldn't cost you a lot, I don't think it is very difficult to do and it might be the solution in your case. I think your original magnet gluing was very close to be sufficient, otherwise it would have exploded in a few seconds. But you managed to get a few rides before the magnets flew off, so just adding a tiny bit of strenght would be likely to solve the problem. In this case, with the carbon fiber, I think you'll at least double the strenght if not more, given that the shear forces won't be on the same axis anymore so it should be reliable. Might worth a try, fitting a bigger motor in this tight spot is a much bigger challenge.
:bolt: :bolt: My electric Ninja 250 clone: 16 000W 72V40Ah A123 cells : :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=90032

:bolt: :bolt: My electric Scooter: 11 000W 72V 50Ah LiFePO4 cells: :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=75912

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by skeetab5780 » Jun 19 2019 5:43am

Elect Ron wrote:
Jun 18 2019 9:34am
skeetab5780 wrote:
Jun 18 2019 7:32am
Yes I have chargers for the Nimh batteries but they are likely toast and you probably shouldn't use them(if you want one for kicks PM me). I would use the original housing and get a custom 18650 lithium pack for them the 36v models run on 10s lithium. If you run them any higher like 12s then the on board dc dc converter will cut out and stop output of power to accessories which can get annoying.

I can almost guaranty the bikes will power up and work fine with a new battery, the easiest way is to take off the left side cover to expose the controller and tap the new battery into the red and black fat battery lead wires going into the battery compartment off the controller board.
OK but wouldn't it be easier to put a Li pack into the original battery sleeve, and just stuff the extra space with styrofoam or something? I really don't want to mess with new connectors and wires if I can avoid it. I also want the battery to be removable so my wife can take it into her office to recharge.

I think the seller is annoyed with himself for misplacing those chargers and will probably find them eventually. He had all the paperwork in a neat folder, and all four keys.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering how to cobble up a 36V supply just to see if the motors even spin. I don't have three car batteries lying around. Guess I could grab a couple of old 18V tool batteries at a thrift store or yard sale.
I sell 36v batteries in the used for sale section if you need to get running on the cheap, they are 10s lithium 42v you can charge them with a $20 charger

check them out if you want, it would take more time and patience to get the battery retro fit into the canister rather than simply tapping into the wires. But it also comes down to how comfortable you are with electronics. I personally put a little more power thru the bike than it can handle and the spring terminals on the battery aren't the greatest things in the world. IMO I would use XT60 for quick disconnect and make two batteries for swapping when charging.

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by skeetab5780 » Jun 19 2019 5:51am

Dui, ni shuo de dui wrote:
Jun 18 2019 9:14pm
skeetab5780 wrote:
Jun 18 2019 8:12am
Dui, ni shuo de dui wrote:
Jun 17 2019 9:01pm
It might be a little late, but to solve your magnet problem, have you thought about using some kevlar wire all around the rotor?
Just dip them in epoxy and as long as they don't touch the stator there should be no way that your magnets will fly off again.
that could work? ive never worked with Kevlar and have no clue how thin it could be but there is not much room for error in these motors, they don't work very well at low rpm either unless you use the stock controller. Very odd setup

if anything I would probably try to adapt a stronger motor to the bike, but there is nowhere to put it except exactly where it is...
I never tried myself and it was just a wild thought, but I searched afterwards and it seems like some companies are actually doing it so I guess it does work.
An alternative could be to use some carbon fiber wire, which is easier to find and very cheap, so I'd say go for that instead.
https://www.arnoldmagnetics.com/product ... psulation/

Yes, it is extremely thin, thinner than a hair actually. If you wrap it tight and take your time to avoid the fibers crossing each other I think the size difference will barely be noticeable. Pretty sure it could work, the only important things would be:
1) to wind the carbon as tight as possible, so build some kind of jig (a crank fixed on the rotor shaft, two planks and it's done)
2) to use some high temp epoxy, so that it can last a long time. That shouldn't be an issue, a lot of motor windings are epoxied so I think it should be easy to find.
3)Make sure that your bearings are still OK, if you have any play in them then the carbon might come into contact with the iron of the coils.

It shouldn't cost you a lot, I don't think it is very difficult to do and it might be the solution in your case. I think your original magnet gluing was very close to be sufficient, otherwise it would have exploded in a few seconds. But you managed to get a few rides before the magnets flew off, so just adding a tiny bit of strenght would be likely to solve the problem. In this case, with the carbon fiber, I think you'll at least double the strenght if not more, given that the shear forces won't be on the same axis anymore so it should be reliable. Might worth a try, fitting a bigger motor in this tight spot is a much bigger challenge.
hmm ill have to give this some thought, I do have 50 motors to try it on...

what size would you use? When I google the stuff it looks like yellow yarn, way too thick 45lb rated?

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by Elect Ron » Jun 19 2019 10:00am

skeetab5780 wrote:
Jun 19 2019 5:43am
I sell 36v batteries in the used for sale section if you need to get running on the cheap, they are 10s lithium 42v you can charge them with a $20 charger

check them out if you want, it would take more time and patience to get the battery retro fit into the canister rather than simply tapping into the wires. But it also comes down to how comfortable you are with electronics. I personally put a little more power thru the bike than it can handle and the spring terminals on the battery aren't the greatest things in the world. IMO I would use XT60 for quick disconnect and make two batteries for swapping when charging.
Right, I saw those. So they can be wired 3 in parallel to get 13Ah? And they would fit into the stock housing? Use the stock charging connector?

I'm OK with a little bit of wiring inside the battery housing but ideally I'd like to leave the bike itself as is. I just know it'll never get done, and I have a load of unfinished projects around to prove it, including a couple of gas bikes. It'll be quite enough work as it is, e.g. if I understand this thread, I can't just put a modern $10 ebay throttle on, I'll either have to fix the old one, or replace the controller, as well. That sort of thing.

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by skeetab5780 » Jun 19 2019 2:31pm

Elect Ron wrote:
Jun 19 2019 10:00am
skeetab5780 wrote:
Jun 19 2019 5:43am
I sell 36v batteries in the used for sale section if you need to get running on the cheap, they are 10s lithium 42v you can charge them with a $20 charger

check them out if you want, it would take more time and patience to get the battery retro fit into the canister rather than simply tapping into the wires. But it also comes down to how comfortable you are with electronics. I personally put a little more power thru the bike than it can handle and the spring terminals on the battery aren't the greatest things in the world. IMO I would use XT60 for quick disconnect and make two batteries for swapping when charging.
Right, I saw those. So they can be wired 3 in parallel to get 13Ah? And they would fit into the stock housing? Use the stock charging connector?

I'm OK with a little bit of wiring inside the battery housing but ideally I'd like to leave the bike itself as is. I just know it'll never get done, and I have a load of unfinished projects around to prove it, including a couple of gas bikes. It'll be quite enough work as it is, e.g. if I understand this thread, I can't just put a modern $10 ebay throttle on, I'll either have to fix the old one, or replace the controller, as well. That sort of thing.
Ya Id recommend at least four of the hover board batteries since the Voloci seems to be pretty power hungry 36v 40a you'll get only 10 miles range, but I think only three will fit in the housing(not even sure) Full draw up a hill with no pedals can get upwards of 45amps! You need lots of batteries to go far on these things unfortunately. I had 7 hover packs on my commuter voloci and it still only likes to do 20 mile trips

the throttle is 2.5v so its very hard to find one that matches the OEM controller. They are easy to fix tho and are pretty much bullet proof. Loosen the bottom flat head screw that holds the throttle twist assembly on and then you can pull it apart(don't lose the spring) either the magnet could be reversed or needs to be adjusted one way a bit, or the wires came off. I was able to make every throttle on all 12 of my Volocis work without problems

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by Elect Ron » Jun 19 2019 3:48pm

Thanks, that's a big help. Three packs should work for my wife's commute which is about 4 miles each way and she can plug in at her job. Getting groceries is about 5 miles round trip. But it wouldn't be of much use for anything else. It really sux that public 110v outlets are rare. Guess the charger would "walk away" if I don't stick around, LOL. Don't want to lug the pack around and explain a zillion times, mind if I plug in here, it's just a nickel per charge.

The throttle grips are both tight/stuck mechanically. Not surprising since the bikes saw use on a farm and lots of weather, judging from the rust. Electrically they may be fine, can't tell yet.

I just opened up one of the packs for a look-see. Yikes that's a lot of wires in there. This one has a 40 amp fuse in the + wire, wouldn't that blow on a long uphill stretch?

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Jun 19 2019 10:17pm

skeetab5780 wrote:
Jun 19 2019 5:51am
hmm ill have to give this some thought, I do have 50 motors to try it on...

what size would you use? When I google the stuff it looks like yellow yarn, way too thick 45lb rated?
I would probably use carbon fiber instead of aramid/kevlar actually. Carbon it much stiffer/less susceptible to deformation under the high centrifugal forces and available in much thinner sizes. It is electrically conductive, but I don't think this will affect anything since it's very thin and apparently it's used by professionals on electric rotors, I guess they know what they are doing. Plus the magnetic field is supposed to follow the rotor so the carbon shouldn't see much field changes.
You can try something like this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3273195 ... a4c44027c3

One layer should be enough, but since it's thin you can probably even go for 2 if you wrap it around properly, I'm not sure if you have enough space, you'll see :)

You can test on one motor, you don't even need to install the motor on your bike, just put it on a bench, move away for safety, throw 72v at it for a while and see if the magnets stay in place
:bolt: :bolt: My electric Ninja 250 clone: 16 000W 72V40Ah A123 cells : :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=90032

:bolt: :bolt: My electric Scooter: 11 000W 72V 50Ah LiFePO4 cells: :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=75912

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by skeetab5780 » Jun 20 2019 5:46am

if its not under load I doubt it would fail stock. a no load bench test wont prove anything IMO. This wrap is a good idea just not sure when I will get around to it at the moment.

I'm 6' 3" 240lb riding these things hard in rough trails with hills at four times their rated power or more and at slow speeds at times which is worse

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by fechter » Jun 20 2019 8:00am

Part of the magnet problem is the epoxy stuff they used gets much weaker when hot. The motor could probably take 60v if the motor stays cool. Simply using a different glue would probably help a lot, but removing the original glue would be difficult.

I've seen motors with a band around the magnets. My Honda hybrid had something like that. You could use thin stainless steel wire with epoxy too.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Jun 20 2019 8:27pm

skeetab5780 wrote:
Jun 20 2019 5:46am
if its not under load I doubt it would fail stock. a no load bench test wont prove anything IMO. This wrap is a good idea just not sure when I will get around to it at the moment.
Yeah, I don't know.
Without load you can at least check that it resists the centrifugal forces, it will spin faster without load than it will ever spin once installed on the bike.
:bolt: :bolt: My electric Ninja 250 clone: 16 000W 72V40Ah A123 cells : :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=90032

:bolt: :bolt: My electric Scooter: 11 000W 72V 50Ah LiFePO4 cells: :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=75912

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by Elect Ron » Jul 11 2019 12:37pm

Quick update, the seller never did find his chargers but he felt so bad about it he got in touch with Thatcher Ulrich who sent him one. So now I have one of Thatcher's extra chargers and it turns out one of my packs still has life in it! Took a few cycles but now it will charge to 42v and I can't seem to run the pack down just going in circles in my yard/driveway. Not registered yet but we'll take it to the farm next door to get a better idea of the range.

I'm totally new to riding, if you can believe it, but it seems to me it wants to speed up too much. As soon as the motor engages, it'll accelerate way past safe speed for a parking lot or such. Yes, with the mode switch on slow. I end up cycling on/off a lot to go slow. Okay, I'm not even 160 pounds, helmet and all, but that seems wrong. Throttle? Mode switch not working?

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by skeetab5780 » Aug 02 2019 7:19am

that's NIMH pack is like 10ah or something really small so it will likely get around 8 miles full charge in good working order. Who knows how much capacity was lost from sitting at zero for years...Never mind how heavy it is. You can get a decent 36v lithium battery for $150 now a days online just make sure its capable of 40a max draw

about 80% of the Voloci bikes I own the speed limit switch doesn't work at all, I have one or two that it does work on and its pretty neat. It lets it use pretty much full power until a certain speed and then it cuts out and intermittently keeps the wheels turning, you can still get going pretty fast on flat ground with it

figures the controller I have that this works on the dc-dc conveter doesn't work on and the lights and horn does not work, im thinking of putting a remote dc converter in it soon

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by Elect Ron » Aug 02 2019 1:55pm

I don't mind the weight, actually, and 8 miles of range would be great. Still not registered, we forgot to get a BoS from the seller at the time, sorting that out now. It was a blast on the farm road but started shaking itself to pieces so I stopped. Not before ruining a chain, just as I thought I should really check the tension...

I don't think I would trust those cheap Chinese packs. I would definitely stick it inside the grill for charging, and hang around! Plus it doesn't work with the stock charge indicator, right?

Send me a PM if you have any NiMH packs left, or even individual cells. The second pack had some electrolyte (I think) residue inside and will only charge to 24V so I guess that means a bad cell somewhere.

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by skeetab5780 » Aug 03 2019 8:14am

Elect Ron wrote:
Aug 02 2019 1:55pm
I don't mind the weight, actually, and 8 miles of range would be great. Still not registered, we forgot to get a BoS from the seller at the time, sorting that out now. It was a blast on the farm road but started shaking itself to pieces so I stopped. Not before ruining a chain, just as I thought I should really check the tension...

I don't think I would trust those cheap Chinese packs. I would definitely stick it inside the grill for charging, and hang around! Plus it doesn't work with the stock charge indicator, right?

Send me a PM if you have any NiMH packs left, or even individual cells. The second pack had some electrolyte (I think) residue inside and will only charge to 24V so I guess that means a bad cell somewhere.
I have no old technology batteries, I recycled every single one of them when I got the lot of voloci's they are just as dangerous as anything else. They are too heavy and too useless for me to use them. they get pretty hot when charging/discharging also which is a sign of high resistance, atleast a Chinese lithium battery has a BMS system in it...NIMH does not. I would almost say SLA is better haha

the battery gauge works pretty decent on 10s lithium its lights up all the way and goes to red before it actually dies so its useful to me

depending on which state you live in, you can likely ride this with no troubles from the cops, it really does look like a bicycle to most people, I just made a bill of sale on Microsoft word and registered it with the RMV here in MA we get a 2 year sticker

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by Elect Ron » Aug 03 2019 6:16pm

skeetab5780 wrote:
Aug 03 2019 8:14am
I have no old technology batteries, I recycled every single one of them when I got the lot of voloci's they are just as dangerous as anything else. They are too heavy and too useless for me to use them. they get pretty hot when charging/discharging also which is a sign of high resistance, atleast a Chinese lithium battery has a BMS system in it...NIMH does not. I would almost say SLA is better haha

the battery gauge works pretty decent on 10s lithium its lights up all the way and goes to red before it actually dies so its useful to me

depending on which state you live in, you can likely ride this with no troubles from the cops, it really does look like a bicycle to most people, I just made a bill of sale on Microsoft word and registered it with the RMV here in MA we get a 2 year sticker
Dang! One man’s trash, huh? I would have taken a bunch of them.

Anyway, that’s good to know about the gauge LEDs, thanks for the info.

I’m in Massachusetts, as well. I knew I needed the sticker but the previous owner never registered the bikes, just used them on his farm. So what he gave me was the certificate of origin with his name as the dealer and I thought that was enough. I got the BoS now, it’s just a low-res texted photo though. Think they’ll accept that at the RMV?

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Re: Nova Cruz Voloci Re-vamp

Post by skeetab5780 » Aug 06 2019 8:24am

yes you need nothing but the vin# and the mass RMV form filled out and $40

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