Sport bike build - CBR600RR (the CBRe)

teddillard

100 W
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
125
Location
Boston, USA
OK, I'm going legit, and posting this to the ES. 8)

146_05_18zoom2005_honda_cbr600rrchassis_engine.jpg


I've got a build thread going on my blog: https://evmc2.wordpress.com/category/the-cbre-build-thread/

But here's the plan:
Donor chassis – 2005+ CBR600RR (or similar): $2000.00 – $5000.00

It seems like ’05 was the turning point for the chassis on either the CBR-RR series or the Yamaha R6 or R1 – inverted forks, chassis re-designs, and most of the development of the bikes after that were in engine improvements. Here’s a good site on the CBR-RR for reference. The Yamaha line has dominated racing in the past few years but I’m guessing that’s mostly due to engine work, not handling. In any case, the handling on either of these bikes past ’05 isn’t going to suck. For that matter, nor is the handling on most of these even earlier, so we can throw in an option for chassis going back to about ’03 (the first year of the RR variant) if the price is right.

Repair and tune on chassis: $500 – $1500

Just experience talking here, but you usually need to fix something to make things right. Right?

Motor – Emrax 268 with accessory output shafts and shipping and all: $4500

This is the outrunner that is rated for 100kw, 6000-something RPM and weighs all of 28lbs. The trick is to pick a controller that is a reasonable size, you can program (that is, you can find someone who can tune it correctly for you), and that can get the most out of the motor yet isn’t eleventy million dollars. That remains probably the biggest question.

Cooling for the Emrax: $500

This is for the pumps, lines and radiators for liquid-cooling the motor. Not much of a major deal, but the nickel-dime stuff will kill you.

Controller: Rinehart PM100DX – $5000.00

This will run the Emrax at a minimum of 160V, which is about the highest I care to run the system at, though pretty low in terms of getting the most out of this motor. This would allow up to a 300V system, which I can move to at a later time. It also is a controller that several folks have offered to tune.

Controller/Motor tuning: $1000

I have no real idea of how much this would actually be, but I figure this is a good round number, considering it needs to include shipping and beer money and other sundries.

Fabrication and machining: $1000

This is primarily for the motor mounts and battery enclosure and mounting assemblies. Again pretty much a stab in the dark.

Battery pack: $2000.00 – $4000.00

Totally depending on what deals I can get and what I can find, as well as the size of the pack. This could range from a used pack that I assemble, to a complete plug-and-play using a Zero pack. Probably the biggest unknown, system-wise, but also one of the more flexible decisions. I can change voltage as well as capacity if the system is designed right.

Controls and Displays: $1000.00

I kind of really want this to be legit, so running a good display, like from Andromeda, would be slick. They just launched, and they said they’re working to develop a Rinehart interface, so that’s good. Also they support the Orion BMS, which I forgot to mention.

BMS – Orion BMS- Standard: $1500

Again, this allows expansion up to a lot more voltage than what I’m looking at, but the one that’s set up for 60 cells (190V or so) is around $1k. Just throwing in some extra for cables and connectors and other stuff.

Charger – Manzanita PFC20X: $2000.00

This is kind of a shot in the dark as well, but seems about right for a ballpark, high power (and thus high-speed) charger. I think you have to go with one of the major brands so the BMS will integrate well, so I’d lean towards Brusa or Manzanita. Funny how chargers are kind of the last thing you want to think about. I’m not at all convinced I even want it mounted on the bike, but we’ll see. For any near-max-range riding, it’s pretty handy to be able to just plug in and top up. So yeah. Let’s not scrimp on this detail.

Cables and connectors: $500.00

Yeah, OK, I want them to be pretty.

Totals

Best case – Worst case

$21,000 – 27,500

Actually, more, on the “best case” side than I was guessing, by a grand, and a lot less on the “worst case” side. I was thinking if things went all bad we’d be looking at more like $36,000. Keep in mind the possibility of reselling salvage parts of the donor bike. I don’t like to figure this in, because it’s such a crap-shoot, but say you have a motor that you can sell off for $1000.00. So we bring it down to $20,000 – 26,500.

Let’s, just to introduce some reality into this, look at the pricing for what is (in theory) on the market in this performance bracket.
Mission R: $32,499
Energica EGO: $34,000
Lightning LS-218: $38,800

My performance goals are pretty vague – but I’d like to get in the neighborhood of a 75 mile range, top speed of 150mph, and 0-60 times of 4 seconds or better. Give or take the same ballpark as those bikes.
 
Nice project. I like seeing that you plan to make it more powerful than the original which is about 75kW stock :D

I've been riding a 2005 CBR600RR for the past few years and it's an excellent bike. Definitely a good idea to stick with 2005+ models for the reasons you mention (you'll want good suspension and brakes at 100kW on a heavier bike!) and 2005-06 are pretty inexpensive these days. If mine wasn't so damn reliable I might be eyeing it off for conversion too :lol:

Have you already seen the Varley conversion?
1511848_596849043718377_862626252_o.jpg
 
I have not - I see they were racing with Catavolt, Ripperton and Voltron, but can't find much information on them. Got any linkies?

(edit: Just found a bit of information here: http://evmotorcycle.org/drupal_evmotorcycle/)
 
I have a PM100DX that I won't be needing soon. It came in the DP1e, but I'm going to something in the 500kW range now.
 
teddillard said:
I have not - I see they were racing with Catavolt, Ripperton and Voltron, but can't find much information on them. Got any linkies?

(edit: Just found a bit of information here: http://evmotorcycle.org/drupal_evmotorcycle/)

They have a facebook page but it's scant on details too:
https://www.facebook.com/varleyelectricvehicles

Having seen it in person, it looks like they struggled to package everything they wanted into the bike using A123 20Ah pouches:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/splinter/15058686430/in/set-72157647542026482

If you have a component layout like Voltron EVO and the EMRAX motor + cells with decent energy density, then everything should fit pretty well and have decent weight distribution.
 
liveforphysics said:
I have a PM100DX that I won't be needing soon. It came in the DP1e, but I'm going to something in the 500kW range now.

Nice! PM sent...
 
I was just tossing battery ideas around and found this (again):

11kw.jpg

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=14&name=lithium-batteries-and-packs&Itemid=605

Seems like a good fit.
 
teddillard said:
I was just tossing battery ideas around and found this (again):

Seems like a good fit.

Hi,

Chevy volt packs might be a better fit for this project.
 
teddillard said:
Controller: Rinehart PM100DX – $5000.00

This will run the Emrax at a minimum of 160V, which is about the highest I care to run the system at, though pretty low in terms of getting the most out of this motor. This would allow up to a 300V system, which I can move to at a later time. It also is a controller that several folks have offered to tune.

***

My performance goals are pretty vague – but I’d like to get in the neighborhood of a 75 mile range, top speed of 150mph, and 0-60 times of 4 seconds or better. Give or take the same ballpark as those bikes.

Before you go battery shopping, the specs and goals quoted above will need to be thought about...

You'll only get about 50kW out of the PM100DX if you run at 160V. The Rinehart's battery input voltage is a wide window but the max current it will draw is fixed so you really need to run at the highest voltage it's designed to accept if you want the greatest power out. That in turn will net you the best power density.

At 50kW, you might hit your acceleration goal (Zero SR w/ powertank claims 3.9 seconds, weighing 208kg) but if you want to hit 150mph, you'll need about 75kW.

Comparing again with the Zero SR, it looks like you'll need about 12kWh if you want 75 mile range at 70mph. If you're happy to have a 75 mile range at a lower average speed then your battery pack can shrink.

It quickly becomes an important thing to decide because the larger your pack is the lower the discharge requirements from each cell become, letting you choose lower C rate higher energy density cells. Conversely, the smaller your pack becomes, the higher your C rate requirements become to still deliver the current you need to hit peak power which may limit you to less energy dense cells.

Chris Jones' Voltron Evo provides a practical example where he needs a pretty small pack compared to his peak power (6kWh & 150kW peak) which limited cell choices at the time to ones under 150Wh/kg. Much more energy dense cells are available (~200Wh/kg) but couldn't meet his power requirements.
 
Hi Ted,
I will be watching this with interest. The stumbling block always seems to be the batteries. I agree with the Leaf cell option, very solid and tidy. I wonder if your configuration will end up like Rippertons R1 and Jones' Voltron Evo. A verticle stack with chain drive seems to be the best design at the moment, see Todd Perkins Scrape.

All the best with this build.

Bernel.
 
Can somebody cut a clip called "It's all about that batteriez"? :D

Thanks voicecoils, that's a real tight explanation of battery issues for this kind of a build.

Here's my theory. Design the build around a good, high power motor/controller combination. Stay flexible on the battery configuration - much as Chris has. (We were just chatting, actually :D) This has been kind of a holy grail for me since my first builds - and it's worked really well. I've run essentially the same motor/controller on lead, Headways, RC lipo and CALB by working with a basic mount/bracket assembly and voltage. (I'm running two "36v" packs which are removable - "modular" - which i can use at higher voltage for the street bike, and lower voltage the dirt bike.)

So on the premise that batteries are still a fast-moving target, and that I'll want to play with weight vs range, and that I'm somewhat obsessed with the idea of a modular, fast-swap, scalable battery pack design, that part of the shopping list is far from final, and will probably change even after the build is complete. Also, I'm comfortable with the fact I won't be running the controller/motor at it's full 100kW capacity necessarily.
 
I think C-rate is really important, and in a way, almost as important as specific energy density.

Say my 6 kWh pack - it's a 2p pack made from 40C cells. Now, accepting that 40C in the RC LiPo world is really 20C, that means my 6 kWh pack can deliver 200 amps for brief bursts, like down the straight at Eastern Creek. 200 A from the pack is necessary to achieve this power level (~125 kW).

If I'd gone with a 10C cell, this same sized pack would only deliver 100 amps without leaving spec, so I would literally have to DOUBLE the battery capacity to achieve the same power levels. Doubling the mass of the pack is not to be taken lightly! OK, it will be more like 1.5 X because the 10C cell would presumably pack more than 145 Wh/kg, but you get where I'm coming from.

Another example to consider were the 24s3p packs I built for Rodney64's Phasor. The pack made from 40C cells went further than the smaller, lighter pack made from 20C cells, simply due to sag. Both packs were 15 Ah, both packs were 88 V nominal. But because the 20C cells sagged more, more Wh were consumed to achieve the same range. And no, he didn't go slow wherever he went :mrgreen:

It's a bit like the FIM Forumla E. Basically, they suck because they're slow. They barely crack 220 km/h so they can stretch a race out to 1 hour, and that includes a car swap :lol: I would much rather experience a 15 minute race where everyone was going batshit fast, ripping it up and blowing us away with 330 km/h top speeds.

You're going to take one of the world's best handling chassis and power it from the world's best powerplant (electric). Unless you want to travel interstate, there's no real need for a massive pack. Stuff the range and go for handling I say, even if it means a reduced range. Fit a 6 kW charger onboard if you need to stop and charge :)
 
I totally agree with you Chris, Ted you are thinking along the same lines as me when it comes to batteries. Get the controller and motor you want and get as much power out if it as you can. Some of us are limited from a financial standpoint but the battery technology or power source technology is going to improve and get cheaper.

I for one can't wait for the next evolution of my bike and the battery technology to come. I always surf the various forums for modern sports bikes that are being converted and prototypes like Voltron Evo.

Gentlemen you are all pioneers and it is your shirt tails that a lot of us are following and inspiring.

I wonder what performance we will eventually see Ted once your build is complete.


Bernel
 
I chanced across something recently which may be of interest to Ted & others...

Packaging everything into a sportsbike alloy twin-spar frame can be tricky but going for a custom trellis frame like Voltron Evo can be expensive.

Perhaps there's a happy medium from the stunt bike world called 'steel half frames':
DSC_2412.JPG

http://www.szfajcar.com/frames.html from Poland

You send them your frame and they chop it and build a chromoly trellis at the front. I don't know the cost, but it could enable large battery packs while still being cheaper than a full custom frame.

[EDIT]Found a few prices here. Looks like a steel half-frame that they've made before (existing jigs etc) costs less than US$700 plus two way shipping and any customs. Much cheaper than I expected! Of course something custom would cost more but might still be worth considering.
 
That is REALLY cool. It still leaves a recessed swingarm option too. I like it :)
 
Hi,

Mitch said:
Chevy volt packs might be a better fit for this project [instead of Leaf packs].
voicecoils said:
It quickly becomes an important thing to decide because the larger your pack is the lower the discharge requirements from each cell become, letting you choose lower C rate higher energy density cells. Conversely, the smaller your pack becomes, the higher your C rate requirements become to still deliver the current you need to hit peak power which may limit you to less energy dense cells.
Volt packs are available for much less than Leaf packs (1/3-1/2) and the cells have a much higher C rate.
 
Nice - thanks for the additional information.

edit: just put some numbers together: https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/more-batteriez-chevy-volt-packs/
img_3103.jpg


"At 8C you’re looking at 8C x 45ah = 360 amps. 360A x 176V = 63.4kW.

At the peak of 15C you have 675A. Now you’re looking at 118.8kW.

I just heard back from the folks there and this pack is about 85lbs, so the total weight would be 170lbs. Still on the beefy side, but 30lbs better."
 
Looking into the lipo, (I blame Chris :roll:) I put this post up with a simple configuration spreadsheet:
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/12/29/more-on-the-lipo-option/

screen-shot-2014-12-29-at-9-52-09-am.png


It seems a 6kwh pack of Turnigy 40C cells would give me 120kw at around 100lbs. Can that be right? Just have to add a fireproof garage to the budget. :eek:
 
Don't forget that the copper buslinks will add some weight. Get a strip of copper 18 mm wide and 2 mm thick, and lop off the buslinks from this. You'll need about 1 metre per kWh. And you'll be doing well to make the battery enclosure weigh less than 10 kg, including any hardware like contactors and fuses. But yeah, the cell-level energy density is about 145 Wh/kg, and the price is right :) Buy them direct from Herewin - Hobbyking stores them inside a moving cement mixer for some reason. When they arrive they have scuff marks and dings all over them, not to mention a few DOA cells.

LiPo is simply the best battery for performance applications. It's a compromise on several fronts, but power and cost ain't two of them :)
 
Just got a couple of great battery comparison spreadsheets from Tom de Bree:

https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/build-references-battery-spec-sheet/

Thanks, Tom!
 
Glad to see you had a chance to use the excel files I sent you. The prices for the 18650 cells are from some reseller in eastern europe.
 
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