Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

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SlowCo   10 kW

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by SlowCo » Jun 28 2018 6:26am

Well you found the limit and the magic smoke came out. I have enjoyed reading your efforts and build so far and wish you well in changing to a mid drive motor (or just in front of the rear tire on the swing arm). As efficiency isn't so important for drag racing you could change to a brushed motor and controller combo. A lot cheaper when you want serious kW's.

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jun 28 2018 6:50am

No, no brushed motor, don‘t like the maintenance issue and fighting with brushed fire at higher voltages! Also a weight issue!
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by SlowCo » Jun 28 2018 7:10am

But brushed DC is quick :shock: :


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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jun 28 2018 7:41am

So therefore you also know the prices for such a quick DC bike?!?
Two DC motors (8000€ each)
Zilla 2k controller (8000€ minimum)
Batterie pack (480V/2000A) 15k€ ???
Weight near to 300kg :wink:
So I think the overall costs for such a bike will be over 50k€
No, sorry my bike should stay below 200kg and without maintenance on motor.
My aim is to go under 10 seconds hopefully, that's fast enough for me.
Have to check first the controller is alright, if yes I will continue on this voltage level with a second controller.
If not I will change to higher voltage and lower current!
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by madin88 » Jun 28 2018 8:06am

Sad to hear that.

If the motor isn't smooth running anymore there could be a short in the windings, but it could be also the controller (blown FETs).
Does it spin freely if you disconnect the motor from the controller?
What was the peak temp of the motor?
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jun 28 2018 8:13am

I will check it later on by disconnecting him

Controller said short winding, not Fet problem but I will see it!

Smoke comes out of the motor, no smell from controller but let me check first.
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

SlowCo   10 kW

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by SlowCo » Jun 28 2018 8:22am

Rovii wrote:
Jun 28 2018 7:41am
So therefore you also know the prices for such a quick DC bike?!?
Two DC motors (8000€ each)
Zilla 2k controller (8000€ minimum)
Batterie pack (480V/2000A) 15k€ ???
Weight near to 300kg :wink:
So I think the overall costs for such a bike will be over 50k€
No, sorry my bike should stay below 200kg and without maintenance on motor.
My aim is to go under 10 seconds hopefully, that's fast enough for me.
Have to check first the controller is alright, if yes I will continue on this voltage level with a second controller.
If not I will change to higher voltage and lower current!
Yes, the quicker you want to go, the higher the cost.
But if you try to replicate the performance of that set up with brushless motors and controller it would be a lot more expensive than that!
Keeping the weight down helps a lot when accelerating. Maybe go smaller even. I love the Silver Giant drag bike from True Cousins:
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/23/el ... ins-bikes/

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parabellum   10 MW

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by parabellum » Jun 28 2018 10:04am

Rovii wrote:
Jun 28 2018 4:51am
A short video showing smoke is coming out of the motor:
Looks like toast phase wires from the video. Did you upgrade them before pushing that far?

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jun 28 2018 10:34am

I disconnected the cables from the motor and still have the same problem. I lifted up the wheel so that he can spin free but it cost a lot of power to turn it!

Well the bottle neck was the cable inside the axle.
There you have no chance to take bigger cables!
16-20mm2 was the maximum!
So the box where I connected the 50mm2 cable to the 20mm2 cable looks very clean. So I think the short circuit was inside the motor ... maybe inside the axle.

So I hope that no mosfet was damaged ...
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by flat tire » Jun 28 2018 11:46am

TBH I have to agree that $/effort DC has the upper hand in cost on high power drag setups. And they need not weigh a complete elephant. You can get salvage motors from forklifts for WAY under 8k euro apiece and I don't know about the controller side of things but 8k euro is cheap for a controller that will easily deliver in excess of 1000 hp to the ground. So for your application which could see 10s with 1xx hp, a much less expensive controller can probably be found. And of course you only need a relatively small lipo pack <10kwh. It's true, the motor will be a little heavy but such a bike would be so much faster than your current setup it would be ridiculous.

Oh and as far as maintenance goes, this is a drag bike you will not often ride. Brushes will be the least of your worries.
Last edited by flat tire on Jun 28 2018 11:48am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by parabellum » Jun 28 2018 11:47am

The weak spot is the insulation on the wires, inside the confined axle channel.
To toast the winding you usually need to heat up the whole stator over the insulation enamel rating, somewhere north of 120C. You would feel the heat radiation of the stator in your faces skin just looking at it in this case.

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jun 29 2018 2:37am

flat tire wrote:
Jun 28 2018 11:46am
Oh and as far as maintenance goes, this is a drag bike you will not often ride. Brushes will be the least of your worries.
Yes, you are right!
Ok, I will think about this ...
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jul 02 2018 2:22am

I thougt about it and I think I will change now to brushed DC motors ...
So it will take a while because I also have to update the chassie for it ... still waiting on the new rear rim ...
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 02 2018 2:38am

Great job on giving that motor enough power my friend!

Great job on a 12.2sec 1/4mile too! That's fast!!!
Rovii wrote:
Jun 28 2018 4:51am
Both has the same price!
Hopefully the controller will alive and not also damaged.
A short video showing smoke is coming out of the motor:
https://youtu.be/WNyHEaxCDNM

He shows error code 2220 (Short circuit of motor windings).
I have to remove the wires to see it´s only motor problem!

Otherwise I have to think for a cheaper option with motor controller choice!
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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by emmgee » Jul 02 2018 3:49am

Hmm, DC motors, I don't know.... part of the fun of following your work is that it's NOT DC. There are spectacular examples how far you can get with plasma-spitting monsters, so why repeat what others have already demonstrated in perfection?
I personally want to get rid of my Lynch motors, because I think there are more elegant solutions nowadays especially on the controller side. Burnt motors seem to be the price for it :wink:
Modified Scott Nitrous, 74V, MagicPieV2, waiting for Lebowski-Controller by whereswally
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Dream: Quantya with Lebowski-Controller and brushless motor (Revolt RV-160, Colossus, Emrax 207, ...)

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 02 2018 4:47am

Having done brushed DC at 232Vdc and 1,000amps, I would never do another brushed drivetrain. No argument that it can get a good 6oft time, but it's pretty sad at everything else.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jul 03 2018 7:10am

Mmmh, I am thinking and thinking and thinking ...

Well QS Motor has a more powerfull 273 80H than my "old" version ... could be handling up to 1225A phase current, Kv=17,6!
I will check today the controller is ok or not by measuring diode testing of B+ to UVW and B- to UVW.
If he is ok I could play with thinking about the more powerfull version + water cooling (only to be on safe side during slow motion ride that the windings will be cooled.
To have no chain drive is also a nice feature and I already have the swingarm ready for it ...
Another update can be to put another 80H to front wheel but than the bike will be very heavy and I do not think it make sense!

What can I do to get faster?

Regarding the sensor feedback, what make more sense, to get a hall feedback or a sin/cos feedback?
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by madin88 » Jul 03 2018 8:51am

Rovii wrote:
Jul 03 2018 7:10am
What can I do to get faster?
I would look for a motor that fit's on the swingarm and convert it to a middrive.

2WD?
i believe for drag racing it would not be a bad idea, but otherwise, in terms of handling and suspension characteristics it make things worse, and it is questionable if the fork can hadle so much troque / thrust.
btw: the front motor could be smaller as there would be anyway traction problems. I think if you take one with half the power of the one in the rear it would be powerful enough.
Think about the costs: you would need to buy two new motors, and a second controller (hopefully yours is OK).

Did you took your motor apart to see if it can be repaired?
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by SlowCo » Jul 03 2018 10:02am

Rovii wrote:
Jul 03 2018 7:10am
Mmmh, I am thinking and thinking and thinking ...

What can I do to get faster?
I think you need to determine what is most important to you for this drag race project.
The fastest acceleration within your budget: brushed DC motor and controller.
The challenge of accelerating as fast as possible within your budget with a brushless motor and controller: go lighter and mid drive (for optimal gearing). The power level you were in now doesn't need such a big and heavy bike. An Aprilia RS50 or 125 is lighter and strong enough.

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jul 03 2018 11:02am

An Aprillia is not an option for me!

Emrax 228 can handle 100kW peak and fits perfectly to Emsiso EmDrive500.
But costs 4000€ with watercooling!

Then I can play with different transmission ratios!
At least I can add another one to the motor as dual drive on one shaft!
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

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Dui, ni shuo de dui   100 W

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Jul 03 2018 10:23pm

Too bad you fried your motor, that sucks...
Maybe an easy solution could be to send it back to QS and maybe provide them with the best kind of wire you can find wherever you live so they can rewire it for you?
Shouldn't cost too much and you'd have a custom motor with the specs you want.

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jul 04 2018 1:09am

Shipping cost from GER to China will be around 250€ (each direction).
We are talking about 50kg hubmotor!

Also Emrax has updated their prices for the motors. They charged now 500€ (+22% fee) for the LV-versions :evil:

I am really frustrated.
I also get no feedback from QS how I can open the motor.
Forget the YouTube video, it doesn´t work!
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by phate » Jul 04 2018 6:00am

Rovii wrote:
Jul 03 2018 11:02am
Emrax 228 can handle 100kW peak and fits perfectly to Emsiso EmDrive500.
But costs 4000€ with watercooling!

Then I can play with different transmission ratios!
At least I can add another one to the motor as dual drive on one shaft!
Emrax 228's are crazy. How can you not get excited reading through that specsheet?

I am hugely in support of a dual-outrunner mid drive setup. My work in progress below, which is admittedly crude due to the limited tooling I have available. I'd ditch the bearing blocks entirely and move away from a chain if I still had machining capability, but for now aluminum box-section and a drill press will do the trick.
Image

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Rovii » Jul 04 2018 8:28am

My problem ist not the spec.
But I calculated the price today for a 228 and now he costs 5000€ with the same parts as I checked half a year before and they updated the price because:
Low voltage stators are much harder for winding process and they need almost 3 times as much to prepare winding compared to MV or HV.
- Fastest speed record 200,49 kph on flat after 740m (175V, 400A, Kelly KLS 8080I 14401, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 mile @ 157,12 kph on flat and 14.468 sec (146V, 600A, Kelly KHB 14601, 2017)
- Fastest 1/4 Mile @ 170,62 kph and 12,278 seconds ( 117V, 800A, Emsiso EmDrive 500, 2018)

14/34kW QS-Motor 273 80H 7T winding (560A and 1740 turns @ 144V) @ 169kg GSXR 1000 K2

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Dui, ni shuo de dui   100 W

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Re: Suzuki GSX-R e899 K2

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Jul 05 2018 3:40am

Rovii wrote:
Jul 04 2018 1:09am
Shipping cost from GER to China will be around 250€ (each direction).
We are talking about 50kg hubmotor!
Yeah, I live in China so I kinda forgot about the shipping cost since it is so low here...
250Euros seems a bit high to me, you should maybe try to get a quote from the standard post office wherever you live (not DHL, Fedex or stuff like that, they are notoriously super expensive).
But I doublt it could be cheaper than 100-150Euro, that's for sure
Rovii wrote:
Jul 04 2018 1:09am
I also get no feedback from QS how I can open the motor.
Forget the YouTube video, it doesn´t work!
Is it any different from the other QS motors?
Usually they are fairly easy to open, but you need a ton of force to separate the rotor from the stator, those magnets are pulling hard!
I only did this on a 2000W motor, I can't imagine how much force you'll need on yours.

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