Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

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skeetab5780
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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 04, 2017 3:31 pm

fechter wrote:
Dec 04, 2017 2:43 pm
Looking good.
Sprocket mounted, this motor shaft is quite long and in a perfect world I would have cut it shorter like I did with the BHT, but this bike has plenty of room under the hood so I let it fly
Depending on the chain forces, the shaft might have a tendency to snap off. Making it shorter will reduce the chances of this.
That would really suck, and I would have to re weld the bracket to change it at this point.

I should have cut it before hand, but ended up getting to the project last minute with no prep time...

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 04, 2017 3:35 pm

So instead of installing my Kelly software on a laptop I use my office PC, so I had to drag the dirt bike into my office and plug the USB cable in. Selected the Phase angle indentification process and the motor spun in the right direction properly after rebooting the controller! Its that simple with the KLS series.

Looks like I have to strap some lipo to this thing and take it for a ride!

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by captain387 » Dec 04, 2017 6:26 pm

Looks like a pretty fun setup you have there.

I didn't read through the thread but I assume you are going to be adding some bracing to the frame where the old ICE motor was?
Would hate to see the frame split in half 8)
04 Norco Atomik - Cycle Analyst - Hs3540 - 40amp Infineon Controller - 12s2p 5.8 Ah Turnigy Lipo
95 GT Timberline FS - Converted back to pedal only.

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 05, 2017 12:04 pm

Ya im basically using this pig as a electric motor tester, ill do small hill climbs and putt around I doubt I will be getting any air or using this heavy ars bike for a long time...Its really heavy and I'm so picky about efficiency that I cant handle it. it is also made of the worst steel and the rear swingarm sucks

Update: I drove the bike around for a test ride and the chain is all over the place to the point I cannot even go full throttle. I need to weld a tensioner to the frame and sort that chain issues out before I go any further. The motor and controller work well together and are very quiet so far not issues there.

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 05, 2017 6:00 pm

Bought some #40 chain and a roller tensioner to beef up the system. Should have used #40 to begin with instead of #41 its 3 times stronger and i need to make the chain longer anyway

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by AMM118 » Dec 11, 2017 7:06 pm

YouTube test looks great!

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by AMM118 » Dec 11, 2017 7:36 pm

Hey skeetab5780,

I'm working on a KTM 50 conversion for my son. Going to go with the same setup as the v2 of your Apollo. Any chance you can help with the wiring were to get a similar battery.


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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by trazor » Dec 12, 2017 12:24 am

skeetab5780 wrote:
Dec 11, 2017 8:50 pm
Looks good!. I want to see the "Denzel 7.5K" in action, and how it holds against the "big block/BHT".
LightningRod's website isn't currently selling more big blocks due to manufacturer supply issues (Mike said this will resolve in few weeks). I'm looking for an alternative motor to build an e-moto for a friend. Please keep us updated!
I wonder what is the nominal power of the denzel motor, 7.5KW seems a bit exaggerated for that size. I think the big block/BHT are rated 1KW. Indeed, yesterday I overheated it by averaging 2KW for 10 minutes in a hot day.

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 12, 2017 10:13 am

Got some more Multi-stars on sale so I can pull more amps when they are paralleled. They are techcnically for my Kuberg bike but I will use them while testing this bike also.
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So I bought a #40 chain which is much much stronger and heavier than the #41 I was using
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I noticed a big problem that I didn't see while using the smaller chain, but now I know why my chain was all over the place. The 12t sprocket is so small that the chain is hitting the two bolts that hold it on the shaft. I tried to use smaller bolts but they still seem to hit. I think I will have to increase the front sprocket size by atleast 1 tooth to fix this issue
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Moved the chain guide a bit also to better suite the new setup
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Here you can see it hits it very badly, I don't think I can keep the 12t
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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by izeman » Dec 12, 2017 12:26 pm

the 12t is too small for sure :(
great build btw! and yes, let your brother do the welding - he knows the stuff. and let him teach you how to do it, it's not that difficult. just needs some pratice.
one question: how do you like the multistars? my turnigy packs are 4 years old now, and i need spares. and the multistars are super cheap, but only 10C rated. can they really deliver 10C w/o breaking a sweat?

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 12, 2017 12:45 pm

So in plans to get this thing on the road I ground down as much of the metal I could to try to cram the 12t in, it is usable for now but it is still rubbing just a bit on the chain. The 13t will be in the mail for a few days...until then Ill have to wait
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after shaving down bolts/retainer clip
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Need to pull wheel back a bit, but 13t will change this anyway
Image

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 12, 2017 12:50 pm

izeman wrote:
Dec 12, 2017 12:26 pm
the 12t is too small for sure :(
great build btw! and yes, let your brother do the welding - he knows the stuff. and let him teach you how to do it, it's not that difficult. just needs some pratice.
one question: how do you like the multistars? my turnigy packs are 4 years old now, and i need spares. and the multistars are super cheap, but only 10C rated. can they really deliver 10C w/o breaking a sweat?
I like the Multi because of the large capacity, I'm not the guy to talk to about real statistics since I rarely ever use voltage meters. I rely on LVC buzzer and that's about it for discharge. But if you are looking for a high current setup with these I would cut the rating in half to about 5C so you get any sort of longevity out of your pack. I have pulled full rating from them at peaks but never continuous. I do love them tho

Looks like I will need some welding done to adapt the rear chain tensioner, maybe I can try to hack this one myself!

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 12, 2017 12:54 pm

AMM118 wrote:
Dec 11, 2017 7:36 pm
Hey skeetab5780,

I'm working on a KTM 50 conversion for my son. Going to go with the same setup as the v2 of your Apollo. Any chance you can help with the wiring were to get a similar battery.
If you are using the KLS controllers they are very simple to wire, just hook up the 3 motor phases and the 5 hall sensor wires color for color and plug the controller into a PC and use the user program Kelly offers to auto select phasing for you. It is a few pages back in this thread if you need more info. Other than that you just need to hook up the three throttle wires and the #7 pink wire has to hook to positive to power the controller up.

The Multi-star LIPO packs can be bought from HobbyKing.com from whichever warehouse is closest to your location. Right now they are on sale and shipping FREE! you can get 3x 6s like I do and put them in series to make 18s, or you can buy 4s configurations if you want 20s or something else. I use a bc168 balance charger to charge every so often and then typically bulk charge with the grin cycle satiator charger big $$

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 12, 2017 1:09 pm

Very crude video of the first test ride with the new motor and chain. Still have lots to do...

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by madin88 » Dec 12, 2017 2:38 pm

trazor wrote:
Dec 12, 2017 12:24 am
Looks good!. I want to see the "Denzel 7.5K" in action, and how it holds against the "big block/BHT".
There is a vid from a russia guy who has done a comparison between D7500 and the BHT (in the end he measured torque).

check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUG_IVDQqqE

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 12, 2017 3:38 pm

I didnt see the BHT motor once in that video, but i also cannot understand the language either. The kv on the paper at the end could be the comparison. Speed seems very close not sure about torque Nm

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by AMM118 » Dec 12, 2017 6:26 pm

Thanks you VERY helpful.

Did you get your KLS controller from Eastgem or right from Kelly? I assume this is the right one?

http://www.eastgem.net/kelly-controller-7218.html

On the batteries - I wanted to have 48V - would I get something like this and run 4 of them in series?

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... -pack.html

This is the charger right?

http://www.myrcmart.com/rcx-bc168-intel ... -4768.html

and

Grin cycle satiator charger

http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 13, 2017 9:04 am

That controller is the 180a peak, the one I am using is the KSL7230 the 300a peak. I have one of the KSL7218 I can sell you for $150 shipped but you will also need a program cable so I suggest maybe you purchase from Kelly direct. Unless you can confirm from Alex at Eastgem that he has the proper cables.

For the battery is you want to run 48v you might want to get 1x6s and 2x4s Multi-stars so you are at 14s this is pretty close. You will have to charge the 6s and 4s batteries separately if you are going to balance charge. The satiator will charge it all in series in bulk if you monitor it regularly for errors just incase.

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by AMM118 » Dec 13, 2017 9:20 am

Very helpful thank you.

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by izeman » Dec 15, 2017 6:44 am

your chain looks too loose. even if you install a chain tensioner. the chain tensioner will only stop the lower part of the chain from hitting the frame.
but it may be that the chain gets shorter when the suspension is compressed. so maybe it's ok. can't say from here :)

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by madin88 » Dec 15, 2017 7:40 am

skeetab5780 wrote:
Dec 12, 2017 3:38 pm
I didnt see the BHT motor once in that video, but i also cannot understand the language either. The kv on the paper at the end could be the comparison. Speed seems very close not sure about torque Nm
At 1:30 you can see the motors side by side, but you have right it isn't the BHT as it has black color. Probabaly same as a LR big block?
But BHT and LR big block should have very similar performance from what i know.. You have had both installed, right? :)
At the end you can see how the guy calculates the Nm from the motor pulling on a scale.

the numbers:
D7500 has 66,65kV and 48,45Nm
other motor has 69,64kV and 26,5Nm

It would be interesting to know more about the torque numbers. It could be saturation torque or just torque output with same controller settings (same phase amps), but thats only specualtion..

can you confirm the kV of about 67 RPM/V?

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by skeetab5780 » Dec 15, 2017 3:27 pm

Got the 13t sprocket in the mail and so far it seems to have fixed most of my issues I was having. The chain is now drivable and is not nearly as sloppy, I can take off fine and get up to full speed fine with no random chain slap or noises

I am still planning to use a tensioner but it is acceptable now and I can get a test ride in no problem now
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The chain is a little bit closer than I want it to be to the tire tread, but it has not hit it yet so I will wait and see how it goes!
Image

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by izeman » Dec 15, 2017 4:11 pm

being so close shouldn't be an issue. if it ever hits the wheel it may just clip off some rubber :) but nothing worse should happen.

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Re: Apollo 250 Dirt Bike Conversion

Post by nutnspecial » Dec 17, 2017 11:00 pm

D7500 has 66,65kV and 48,45Nm
other motor has 69,64kV and 26,5Nm
Wow that seems a pretty dam good increase for just a couple pounds of motor!!!

Imo it's too bad the bigblock and apparently (looking for confirmation) the d7500 have around twice the kV of BHT.

Low kV means you can get more power/energy from the voltage side of equation, which better suits the lighter motors imo, and also you can charge a HV battery of same WH much faster at recommend C-rates.

But still- it looks nice! Glad I found it for ya hahaha, keep up the good work!!

PS Izeman, watch for my new klein build. . . You will love it as a mid direct drive I think- the newer frame/geometry is quite nice to our old ones!

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