My Electric Motorbike

Show off your E-Scooter or Motorcycle creation here.
User avatar
jansevr   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 470
Joined: May 27 2011 6:58pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, U.S.

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by jansevr » Jul 14 2018 10:20am

In regards to the slow acceleration...you can try adjusting the settings for acceleration time under the throttle menu.

Keep this in mind (from the sabvoton manual): The less the “acceleration time” or “deceleration time” is, the faster the throttle will response ,(It is forbidden that the time set over 2000ms).

If you go less than 2000ms the throttle will instantly go to full throttle. Be sure to have the rear wheel suspended off the ground when tuning and testing.

User avatar
Dui, ni shuo de dui   100 W

100 W
Posts: 161
Joined: Jan 29 2016 3:21am

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Jul 15 2018 8:43pm

jansevr wrote:
Jul 14 2018 10:20am
In regards to the slow acceleration...you can try adjusting the settings for acceleration time under the throttle menu.

Keep this in mind (from the sabvoton manual): The less the “acceleration time” or “deceleration time” is, the faster the throttle will response ,(It is forbidden that the time set over 2000ms).

If you go less than 2000ms the throttle will instantly go to full throttle. Be sure to have the rear wheel suspended off the ground when tuning and testing.
It doesn't exactly work like that, unfortunately.
This parameter only sets the throttle response time, which means the controller will determine the average value of the throttle potentiometer input by sampling during this time. It just makes the throttle more reactive, but it doesn't help adding more power. I usually set my throttle response time to 50ms both for acceleration and deceleration.

Anyways, the acceleration is not bad at all, it is still way better than a 250cc gas one, just that it lacks a bit of kick from standstill. I think this is a controller issue, sabvotons controller are not programmed to give full power from zero. I just hope there is a clever way to trick the controller to give more power during this phase.

Changing for a smaller diameter wheel is out of the question, the bike would look weird, it would lower its ground clearance and impact handling. But sure, purely speaking about acceleration, it would work. :)

User avatar
kebekua   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 31
Joined: Jan 19 2016 1:19am

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by kebekua » Sep 11 2018 1:12am

If you guys wanna see the performance on the street check out the videos of Dui and I against a 400cc bike.

Soon another video with the Mobipus 72600. We'll need to find a 600cc for that one!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRTDp5tUqaY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUS4IMGhe3E

And this one is for whoever said lead acid batteries are good for nothing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFSrPVXyVR8
''Power is not a means, it is an end.'' O'Brien, 1984

User avatar
eee291   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 735
Joined: Nov 05 2015 4:35pm
Location: Austria, Burgenland: Güssing

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by eee291 » Sep 11 2018 3:02am

And this one is for whoever said lead acid batteries are good for nothing:
Well, that is still a fact.

User avatar
kebekua   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 31
Joined: Jan 19 2016 1:19am

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by kebekua » Sep 11 2018 4:19am

A Chuck Norris kind of fact, yeah
''Power is not a means, it is an end.'' O'Brien, 1984

User avatar
armandd   10 W

10 W
Posts: 73
Joined: Jan 18 2018 4:46am
Location: Malaysia

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by armandd » Sep 12 2018 8:50am

If lead acids are so bad, why is it that millions are still manufactured every day? They are not as bad as some people might think.

User avatar
macribs   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3486
Joined: Jul 22 2014 5:59pm

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by macribs » Sep 12 2018 10:25am

Well diesel fuel and and that tar like bunker oil that ships are using are also produced each and every day. That does not make em good for you or me. Same with the diesel engines. Mass produced but still there are better alternatives.

User avatar
eee291   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 735
Joined: Nov 05 2015 4:35pm
Location: Austria, Burgenland: Güssing

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by eee291 » Sep 12 2018 11:07am

armandd wrote:
Sep 12 2018 8:50am
If lead acids are so bad, why is it that millions are still manufactured every day? They are not as bad as some people might think.
Lead-acid Batteries are a huge waste. Especially for EVs.

I mean 250 Cycles@100% DOD and only 30-40wh/kg which gets cut in half if you discharge at 1C or greater, it's just laughable.
Also Lead-acid batteries degrade slowly at above 25C. And in Winter, you can consider yourself lucky if you make it to your local Walmart.

The reason they are still made today is because they can be made cheaply. People then buy Lead-acid batteries without even knowing about the shortcomings, only to dispose of them within 2 or so years.

I'm not saying Lead-acid Batteries don't have their uses. But I do feel sorry for people that put them in their EVs.

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7539
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by Chalo » Sep 12 2018 11:41am

You only have to look at what lead powered electric cars were like, versus what lithium powered electric cars are like, to understand the implications.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

User avatar
Dui, ni shuo de dui   100 W

100 W
Posts: 161
Joined: Jan 29 2016 3:21am

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Sep 12 2018 9:09pm

Hi guys,

Instead of wasting some nice energy to debate about evil SLA vs good Lithium here, what would you say if we used all this brain power to help me mod my controller here instead: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=95846

:wink: :wink:

User avatar
Dauntless   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7131
Joined: May 29 2010 1:49am
Location: Coordinates: 33°52′48″N 117°55′43″W

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by Dauntless » Sep 12 2018 10:54pm

Heavens! It's the arguing SLA's that gets their blood going. Now they are ready for full contact Latin dancing on your controller.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

User avatar
eee291   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 735
Joined: Nov 05 2015 4:35pm
Location: Austria, Burgenland: Güssing

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by eee291 » Sep 13 2018 1:31pm

Dauntless wrote:
Sep 12 2018 10:54pm
Heavens! It's the arguing SLA's that gets their blood going. Now they are ready for full contact Latin dancing on your controller.
You don't know how hard I laughed at this :lol:

User avatar
minde28383   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 448
Joined: Apr 02 2010 7:11am

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by minde28383 » Feb 11 2019 1:38am

Lower Kv would give you initial kick but with such ebike it would be disappointing loosing top speed.
I was considering that Sabvoton72150 does it better than Kelly72300. Especially from stand still.
Overall 72150 too small for your hub or was it 72200 than it's kind ok considering price. People saying their Sabvaton fry, mine new Sabvaton fried too, but in my case I think it happened due lack of diode on relay (contactor). There is magnetic electric voltage spike every time you disengage relay so some controllers are susceptible to it and fry, like mine did.
Also you need FF inside your hub unless liquid / water cooling is an easy and an option for you, than it's even better.
Sabvoton software is primitive (basic), there is nothing to change in it to gain your sought initial acceleration. Similarly like any other controller it is designed, programmed to preserve hardware (controller itself and motor) by not pushing Amps too fast when you crank throttle or maybe parts themselves are not enough, but I think it is programmed to deliver considerably subtle wattage in very low rpms. Looking from manufacturer and warranty point of view - softer start, less prone to brake.
In other your thread, I read, somebody suggest that it is possible to change parts: Fets and caps and make it more powerful but even if you would do it, theoretically speaking, it still would be black box (you don't know what inside, what outcome, what you will gain with it). AFAIK you can change parameters which are in their proprietary Sabvoton application only. But I rather live with generic controller than with something like Sevcon. It has tons of parameters to change. It can rape any motor, but one needs be become an expert to understand what it can do and what to change.

Seeking for initial kick from 0-10 km/h. Maybe APT would give it. Not too expensivs - ''APT Programmable FOC AE96600''. This one is a brick but 600A phase.

Maybe it does not apply to your hub as yours has wider magnets but:
I had change to run qs273 v2 11kv 28H magnets in 16'' rim with huge tire coupled with Sabvoton 72150, locked version. Within battery and phase amp range there was a point from which amp increase had no noticeable dynamic increase, effect.
ebike build in progress
CN 5.5kw scooter (on sale)
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (on sale)

User avatar
Dui, ni shuo de dui   100 W

100 W
Posts: 161
Joined: Jan 29 2016 3:21am

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Feb 13 2019 12:42am

minde28383 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:38am
Overall 72150 too small for your hub or was it 72200 than it's kind ok considering price.

It's the "72200", not really an official version since it didn't really exist at the time, but a modified version of the 72150, with unlocked firmware where you can input figures >150A
So far I have it set up at 210Amps battery and 510Amps per phase. It's been like that for more than a year already, driving everyday and it seems just fine with it. Never tried to push it more since I don't know what it the actual theoretical limit of the FETs and I suppose I'm close to it.
It does heat a bit during the hot days of summer in which case I can reach the temp limit after around 15-20 minutes of hard ride, but nothing crazy. And its not even water cooled.
minde28383 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:38am
People saying their Sabvaton fry, mine new Sabvaton fried too, but in my case I think it happened due lack of diode on relay (contactor). There is magnetic electric voltage spike every time you disengage relay so some controllers are susceptible to it and fry, like mine did.
Never had any problem with mine.
I had problems with my other one, but I think it was due to me welding my chassis without having disconnected the controller (extremely stupid mistake). The controller still works 99% of the time, but sometimes, randomly, it doesn't want to start (the controller turns on, but nothing happens when you turn the throttle). Wait a few hours and it generally will start again. No error messages. Tried everything already, changing a few throttles, hall sensors, re done the wiring... But 99% of the time it still works fine. Super weird problem.
But before that it worked flawlessly for about 3 years. I even inverted the positive and negative terminals from the battery once, it made a gigantic spark but the controler was still working fine. This thing is tough.
I don't really know how people managed to fry theirs, I'm using Sabvoton controllers for about 5 years and never been able to destroy one so far despite being pretty hardcore with them.
minde28383 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:38am
Also you need FF inside your hub unless liquid / water cooling is an easy and an option for you, than it's even better.
The motor barely heats, for now it is not really a problem
It is probably the bright side of the limited power from 0-10kmh :)
minde28383 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:38am
Sabvoton software is primitive (basic), there is nothing to change in it to gain your sought initial acceleration.
That's actually the only thing it misses in my opinion. I wouldn't say it's primitive given the fact that it is a no brainer for the user 99% of the time, you just plug everything, click on "test" and the software will determine your motor parameters for you, you don't have to guess or mess up with specs you don't understand it's pretty advanced in that regard.
Other than that the fact you cannot change the startup torque I think the software is good enough, it's easy to use and quite foolproof, any changes you make don't need a reset of the controller so you can tweak in real time which is a huge, huge advantage. You can tweak the settings wile riding the machine if you want to. I don't remember any other controller being able to do that.
Like you, I think that the startup torque is limited to protect the controller and motor from unexperienced people and to improve the controller life expectancy. It's a bit annoying but I can live with that actually, now that I'm used to it doesn't really matter so much to me. It reminds me of turbo engines with turbo lag, not much until you reach 3000 rpm and then BOOM! Except it doesn't arrive abruptly, its more like a smooth wave of torque.
minde28383 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:38am
In other your thread, I read, somebody suggest that it is possible to change parts: Fets and caps and make it more powerful but even if you would do it, theoretically speaking, it still would be black box (you don't know what inside, what outcome, what you will gain with it).
Well, yes and no.
Even if you don't know how the software is programmed, you know for sure that it takes its decisions based on some inputs. Those inputs will mostly be voltage and current values. Those values will come from different sensors located somewhere on the controller. So the idea here is to trick the controller, supplying it with altered values. For example, lowering the resistance of a shunt sensor to make the controller believing that it gives less current than it is actually giving. Or bypassing the current sensors for a similar result.
Actually I'm pretty sure you could do almost anything you want with an external microcontroller, gathering the value of these sensors, then mapping them according to a map of your choice before finally feeding them to the actual microcontroller of the sabvoton.
Let's say for instance that the current sensor detects right now a current of 200Amps on phase A, you feed that value to the 1st microcontroller who turns it into, let's say 150A and then feeds this value to the Sabby microcontroller. The sabby will then think it didn't reach its actual target of 200A, it will widen the PWM duty cycle as a consequence and the FETs will be opened for longer. In the end the limit will be the heat capacity of your mosfets as well as your motor saturation point. At least I think so.
Sure, you'd need a clean code who would run fast enough not to delay the information too much but I think this should be doable.
I'm unfortunately unable to test that because I just have one controller that I actually need everyday to go to work, plus I'm not entirely sure I'd be qualified enough to tackle this challenge.
minde28383 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:38am
Seeking for initial kick from 0-10 km/h. Maybe APT would give it. Not too expensivs - ''APT Programmable FOC AE96600''. This one is a brick but 600A phase.
600A/phase is not that much different than 510A/phase. Sure It might be slightly better but nothing really insane.
But maybe the power curve is different, I don't know,
minde28383 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 1:38am
Maybe it does not apply to your hub as yours has wider magnets but:
I had change to run qs273 v2 11kv 28H magnets in 16'' rim with huge tire coupled with Sabvoton 72150, locked version. Within battery and phase amp range there was a point from which amp increase had no noticeable dynamic increase, effect.
Could be your motor saturating (in which case it should run very hot), but I had a similar issue until I discovered that there are two parameters that work together, I think it was the "rated current" and the "max limit current" or something. Changing one without changing the other wasn't making any difference passed some point, but then changing the other made a difference. I believe that was because the controller was hitting one of the two limits first, so whatever parameter you entered couldnt' be reached in real conditions.

If you post some screenshots of your config page I can help you if you want.

Vortecks   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 44
Joined: Aug 17 2017 9:37pm

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by Vortecks » Feb 14 2019 12:45am

I've just revisited this post and I've noticed you're using the same BMS as me.
I wasn't happy with the Chinese app so I wrote my own - https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... tecks.vbms
Drop me a PM and I'll send you the latest version if you want :D

User avatar
minde28383   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 448
Joined: Apr 02 2010 7:11am

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by minde28383 » Feb 14 2019 1:05am

What's BMS model?
Mine is ANT 32S 120A 300A. Does you app works with it? What's different in your app?
ebike build in progress
CN 5.5kw scooter (on sale)
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (on sale)

User avatar
Dui, ni shuo de dui   100 W

100 W
Posts: 161
Joined: Jan 29 2016 3:21am

Re: My Electric Motorbike

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Feb 14 2019 1:54am

Vortecks wrote:
Feb 14 2019 12:45am
I've just revisited this post and I've noticed you're using the same BMS as me.
I wasn't happy with the Chinese app so I wrote my own - https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... tecks.vbms
Drop me a PM and I'll send you the latest version if you want :D
Thanks a lot for the offer, very much appreciated!
I'm unfortunately the kind of sucker who still uses an Iphone4 so I just can't use it :(
But if one of these days I get out of the dark side I'll send you a PM, for sure :)
Thanks again and nice work on the app

Post Reply