Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

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Bikebrap   100 mW

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Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Feb 27 2018 10:14am

Hi, here I'll be posting progress of my electric motorcycle build.
I'll keep the whole build in one post, and discussions will be in posts below :)

In October 2017 I bought a used Cagiva Supercity 50, which is technically a moped, so it I can ride it with a driver's licence for a car.
1 Cagiva nova.jpg
2 rastevljna.jpg
-24 kg
3 fit.jpg
Making sure a Heinzman PMS 120 will fit. It's a synchronous motor used in Brammo Enertia
PMS 120.jpg
Motor arrived in January 2018.

tested the motor by connecting it to my electric bicycle
sin_cos.jpg
Tested sin/cos sensor with the oscilloscope, forgot to take signal pic, but everything works fine.
Sevcon Gen4 Size 2.jpg
Bought used Sevcon Gen4 Size 2, had to open it for fun :D
3D print.jpg
Designed a motor mount using Solidworks and tested dimensions using 3D printer. Printing with low infill and no faces to save on time and material on first tries.
Mount1.jpg
A millimeter off on one hole, not bad for the first try considering I have no CAD of chassis because it's a 20yr old bike.
FEM.png
Did some quick stress analysis on motor and motor mount because of small front sprocket. Smaller sprocket leads to bigger force on shaft, plus the sprocket is near the end of the shaft ,so combined, it is very "ugly" loaded. Results reveal that shaft really is most critical part, but it is still 2,5 times stronger than ideally required.
mount2.png
Some weight reduction on motor mount. Colours are scaled down, so orange (almost highest stress) is still 4.5 times stronger than ideally required

(March 2018)
sprocket.jpg
Front sprockets arrived, need to change inner diameter and make a keyway.

rear_wheel.jpg
rear_wheel2.jpg
There are always some "nice" surprises when buying used stuff. I can only guess if previous owner had chain snap that resulted in this, but there are no marks on swingarm. It's a very rare and old bike, but fortunately I found a wheel in good condition in Austria, 40€ shipped, so that all could have end up a lot worse. Not mentioning it could have broke mid ridding.
new_wheel.jpg
rear_sprocket2.png
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Also did some quick FEM on rear sprocket just to make sure it's all ok.
mount2.png

(April 2018)
Sent a dxf. files for laser cutting sheet metal for battery boxes, rear sprocket and motor mounts.
Also changed the fork seals and added oil. Both fork sides were without oil, and one for seal was in pretty bad shape
dis.jpg
fork.jpg
seal.jpg
I got tire mounted to new wheel too.
wheel.jpg
(May 2018)
Also connected the motor and the controller. Had a few minor errors like encoders, pre-charge circuit and temperature sensor, but fixed them pretty easily. Now I have no errors when powering up the Sevcon but it starts blinking 10 times after 5 seconds of solid green which means it is in "pre-operational" state and I should use DVT (sevcon software) with IXXAT USB/CAN cable to set it in operational state. I found the software, but cable is pretty expensive.
sevcon error.jpg
Some good guy from local selling site offered to borrow me a IXXAT USB-to-CAN cable for free.
usb to can.jpg
IXXAT cable sees CAN communication ok, but unfortunately Sevcon DVT software doesn't recognize it :/
I think I'm gonna use my bicycle's controller for registration and tame a Sevcon some other time.

Also laser cutted parts arrived :D
metal sheets.jpg
rear wheel.jpg
mounted.jpg
mistake.jpg
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I did some stupid mistake. Wanted fo motor to be in line with swingarm, so that chain doesn't come loose with suspension travel, but overlooked a fact that chassys part is in the way. New motor mount is on the way, but now chain is going to get loose when suspension is compressed. Gonna need a chain tensioner.
Last edited by Bikebrap on May 06 2018 10:06am, edited 39 times in total.

litespeed   100 kW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by litespeed » Feb 28 2018 7:48am

Very impressive so far. Nice build your going to have.

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

Bikebrap   100 mW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Mar 31 2018 9:04am

Thanks

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minde28383   1 kW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Mar 31 2018 10:22am

Btw u say it's 4kw. Why so few? U can make it 10kw at least or there is 4kw limit on some componennt?

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by SlowCo » Mar 31 2018 11:45am

minde28383 wrote:
Mar 31 2018 10:22am
Btw u say it's 4kw. Why so few? U can make it 10kw at least or there is 4kw limit on some componennt?
It seems for legal reasons like he put in the title of the thread...
I take it to fall in the moped class in Europe.

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Mar 31 2018 12:04pm

Indeed, It may be due legal reasons.
In my country, you can drive a moped with car license if moped has less than few kw and max speed is up to 45km/h.

Bikebrap   100 mW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Mar 31 2018 12:13pm

4kW is legal limit for this bike to be declared as moped in my country and mopeds can be ridden with driver's licence for a car (I don't have a drivers licence for a motorcycle, yet). Everything will be constructed for max power, but it will be limited on the streets.


Bikebrap   100 mW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 03 2018 3:15pm

1.jpg
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Boght two chains, merged them to get ~160 links.
2.jpg
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Printed out a spacer between the motor and sprocket
3.jpg
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4.jpg
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Looking where to position a chain tensioner and how to mount it
5.jpg
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Printed out a test tensioner
6.jpg
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Assemby od the battery boxes
7.jpg
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Sealing the edges
8.jpg
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A used 1.6 kWh 72V battery pack with BMS
10.jpg
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Putting some styrofoam and thin wood sheeats to isloate sides form vibration, ipact and electrical connetion.

Bikebrap   100 mW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 03 2018 3:31pm

11.jpg
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Battery pack in the box
12.jpg
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Looking for best positioning of the battery mounts
13.jpg
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14.jpg
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Had to make a new motor mount adapeter plate because two side holes of the old engine mount were a few milimeters misaligned

15.jpg
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Had some spacers for rear motor mount machined.
16.jpg
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Bottom battery mount.
17.jpg
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18.jpg
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BMS case printing.
19.jpg
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LCD and arduino case printed out.
21.jpg
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New chain tensioner printed out.

Bikebrap   100 mW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 03 2018 4:24pm

22.jpg
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Printrd out a bottom cahin tensioner too, it is not critical but it changes the botom chain line so that chain length doesn't change much with suspension travel thus it is not loosening or tightening much.
30.jpg
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Doesn't look preaty but it works perfectly. "If it looks stupid and it works, it ain't stupid"
23.jpg
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Had the front sprocket hardened by cementing on my faculty. Before it was +0.02mm than the diameter of the shaft, now it is +0.12, so yeah :roll: preaty loose.
27.jpg
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As my motor has sin/cos resolver and my conteroller is predicted for hall sensors (gave up on Sevcon programming for now) I have trided to make a replica of inner rotor magents number and printed out hall positioning bracket for spacing the halls exactly 120 degrees, in magnetic therms
28.jpg
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25.jpg
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This did work........ but, only for the first time after running "self-study" on the controller. After that it would switch back to sensorless mode and jitter on next time you try to go from stand sill. After analysing with oscyloscope I noticed some jitter in hall signal when motor is accelerating (all good when speed is constatnt, hall signal in phase with phase voltage). So i tried another solution: using existing sin/cos resolver and make converter to hall signal using arduino.

32.jpg
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29.jpg
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This seemed to work better but it still jittered sometimes when accelerating from stand still. It was sort of ok so i moved on to other problems.

26.jpg
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Soldering some wireing and connectors for arduino nano

TEST VIEDOS IN NEXT POST
31.jpg
All set up and ready to go for registration.
Last edited by Bikebrap on Jun 04 2018 2:03am, edited 1 time in total.

Bikebrap   100 mW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 03 2018 4:43pm






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minde28383   1 kW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Jun 04 2018 5:14am

Wow man you rock. It's an amazing project. I want we could register converted bikes more easily in my place.
What bicycle controller you are using after canceled with Sevcon? Will you come back to Sevcon because the motor is capable at least 90A battery amps; It's my wild guess not considering temp issues as it depends on many things, but it might be up to 150A. I assume you didn't find how it performs when you give it a lot amps yet. If Adruino makes job done then you could consider Sabvoton 72150 or even Sabvoton 72200 or even some Mobipus controller.
It's very nice to see 3D print. It's amazing tech some of us have accesses to.

If you will decide to return to Sevcon do you have somebody whom to consult about it's parameters in case some parameters experience is needed? I got one e-mail contact from Norway who is using configuring such controllers.

One more thing. You wouldn't need to do much configuration on Sevcon unless you want of course. But usually, it is enough to load correct firmware/software to the controller which (firmware/software) is already configured for the motor. Do you have such firmware, have you tried to search it?

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Jun 04 2018 5:32am

you old post says:
IXXAT cable sees CAN communication ok, but unfortunately Sevcon DVT software doesn't recognize it

Have you solved that?

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by whereswally606 » Jun 04 2018 6:53am

I have old dvt Software on my xp windows machine that worked with the sevcon controller dongle, couldn't get it to work on 7 or higher. Have you tried on an older OS?

Hope this helps?
Distributing "Lebowski" FOC Controller PCB (Through hole) since 2016
Moped: Emax 110s 2009

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by macribs » Jun 06 2018 12:23pm

Cool build so far, this I gotta watch to see completed.

Bikebrap   100 mW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 07 2018 1:51am

minde28383 wrote:
Jun 04 2018 5:14am
Wow man you rock. It's an amazing project. I want we could register converted bikes more easily in my place.
What bicycle controller you are using after canceled with Sevcon? Will you come back to Sevcon because the motor is capable at least 90A battery amps; It's my wild guess not considering temp issues as it depends on many things, but it might be up to 150A. I assume you didn't find how it performs when you give it a lot amps yet. If Adruino makes job done then you could consider Sabvoton 72150 or even Sabvoton 72200 or even some Mobipus controller.
It's very nice to see 3D print. It's amazing tech some of us have accesses to.

If you will decide to return to Sevcon do you have somebody whom to consult about it's parameters in case some parameters experience is needed? I got one e-mail contact from Norway who is using configuring such controllers.

One more thing. You wouldn't need to do much configuration on Sevcon unless you want of course. But usually, it is enough to load correct firmware/software to the controller which (firmware/software) is already configured for the motor. Do you have such firmware, have you tried to search it?
I'm still waiting for response from guys for registration, maybe something will not be according to the law or something idk.
Controller is some unknown from aliexpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/18-MOFS ... 4c4dne3FBI
at least it doesn't have a huge throttle delay like my previous Sunwin controller.
I know motor is capable of a lot more, some day I will conquer that Sevcon. I quite busy now and spent the budget for motorycle so for now I will ride it like this. Some Kelly or Sabvoton are in consideration for some day.
No, I don't have anybody who is familiar with Sevcon, only this ES forum ;) I don't have firmware for this specific motor, nor did I search (I know, good preparation rigt -.- ) this sevcon was used in Zero XU 2013. It would be great if I don't need to do much configuration just to get rolling with Sevcon. At least i tought I would get it rolling wthout any proggraming, as it is case with cheap bicycle controllers.
Could you pm me that e-mail contact from Norway in case i need it some day.

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 07 2018 1:53am

minde28383 wrote:
Jun 04 2018 5:32am
you old post says:
IXXAT cable sees CAN communication ok, but unfortunately Sevcon DVT software doesn't recognize it

Have you solved that?
Nope, I returned the cable to the man after a week, because he was kind enough to borrow me that expensive cable for free.

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 07 2018 2:04am

whereswally606 wrote:
Jun 04 2018 6:53am
I have old dvt Software on my xp windows machine that worked with the sevcon controller dongle, couldn't get it to work on 7 or higher. Have you tried on an older OS?

Hope this helps?
Thaks for the info. I had similar idea and tried to run DVT on some older OS, but I only had one computer in workshop with win 7 which for some reason could not install drivers nor DVT. Win 10 is everywhere now :/ . I have some computers with win xp elsewhere but now I don't have a cable any more. I have read that it has to be specifically old IXXAT cable V1.4 or V1.5 not sure if this is true. I did not spend to much time wih Sevcon because I had deadline 28.5.2018 for finished bike and borrowed a cable for only a week. Could you send a copy of that DVT software plz, mine is Version 12.497

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Jun 07 2018 5:18am

Bikebrap wrote:
Jun 07 2018 1:51am
......
Could you pm me that e-mail contact from Norway in case i need it some day.
Check you PM messages, it should be there.
He also should know about Wondows OS and IXXAT adapter and DTV software compatibility as he mentioned that he configures these controllers for cars. Also he should have right firmware and/or know where to get it. If you won't get firmware from him or elsewhere get back and I search my old e-mails.

I understand it would be good to tame Sevcon but if you will want to change something in the future you will need to borrow cable/adapter again or buy which costs almost as new controller. Just saying.. maybe consider buying
Sabvoton 72150 24fets 150A&350A or
Sabvoton 72200 36fets 200&450A
Actually, they might be Chinese copy of the Sevcon but does not need that IXXAT adapter to configure, and configuration is a piece of case. No one will admit that they are copy but when you look inside it is almost the same controller. Especially when you open/look to new (not clasic version) version of Sabvoton

Probably it does not apply for mid drive but for hubs they have very right&good&strong starting amperage&thrust from stand still.
Kelly is softer with starts and you can't change it in their software, therefore, slower starts less fun. But I'm emphasizing that I know that it applies to hubs and might or might not apply to mid drives.

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Jun 11 2018 7:48am

I've looked into my archive. If I remember correctly than possibly motor configuration file has extension dcf. If that the case than I got PMS120.dcf. I've 7ziped it so you'll need to unzip it.
I think that's the file which can be uploaded using IXXAT adapter to Sevcon controller. If you have IXXAT and working DVT that you can try to upload dcf to your controller.
Attachments
pms120w.7z
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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 12 2018 9:24am

Yaaaay I got the papers/resistration :D
reg.jpg
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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by macribs » Jun 12 2018 11:05am

Congrats. Nicely done. Now you can bypass that 4kw as you already got the legal papers 8)

Bikebrap   100 mW

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 13 2018 3:36am

minde28383 wrote:
Jun 11 2018 7:48am
I've looked into my archive. If I remember correctly than possibly motor configuration file has extension dcf. If that the case than I got PMS120.dcf. I've 7ziped it so you'll need to unzip it.
I think that's the file which can be uploaded using IXXAT adapter to Sevcon controller. If you have IXXAT and working DVT that you can try to upload dcf to your controller.
Thanks man, you're the best :) :)

Sevcon is still on hold, as I'm busy with other thing than this bike right now.
This bicycle controller was getting prety hot, as it is hidden from air flow (below seat) so I opened both sides and added a fan, now it is ultra cold. Now I can shunt mod it a bit more :D #ultrawaternotresistant
It's gonna be ok for now, till I get some money for a new controller.

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Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 13 2018 3:37am

Also, chain is ultra loud, like 2-stroke engine loud :/

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