Ultrasonic tab welding

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Inwo
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Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Oct 12, 2017 5:46 pm

Thinking of acquiring a welder for aluminum lto pouch tabs.
Anyone have information or sources.

Found one for $3500 from China. Fits my budget if it works. I don't know what to look for.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by PaulD » Oct 12, 2017 6:14 pm

I would recommend asking the welder vendor what materials and thicknesses the machine can weld. The little ones for welding current collector foils likely don't have the power to do thick tabs. Just as a reference point, I nearly maxed out a 1.5kw welder doing 3X 0.2mm copper tabs to 1.6mm copper busbar with large pads (maybe a 0.5in2 area) on the horn. Aluminum to copper required about 75% of the power.
If you are just doing aluminum to aluminum, less power is needed. The vendor should be able to tell you.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 12, 2017 6:35 pm

What battery cells we talking about.?

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Oct 12, 2017 7:28 pm

PaulD wrote:I would recommend asking the welder vendor what materials and thicknesses the machine can weld. The little ones for welding current collector foils likely don't have the power to do thick tabs. Just as a reference point, I nearly maxed out a 1.5kw welder doing 3X 0.2mm copper tabs to 1.6mm copper busbar with large pads (maybe a 0.5in2 area) on the horn. Aluminum to copper required about 75% of the power.
If you are just doing aluminum to aluminum, less power is needed. The vendor should be able to tell you.
You have experience with ultrasonic welding? I'm starting from zero.
I'll get the specs. Means nothing to me!

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Oct 12, 2017 7:37 pm

999zip999 wrote:What battery cells we talking about.?
11ah and 50ah titanate pouches. LTO
These were made for Altairnano by Kokam. 9 years old, but hey, LTO are forever!
ltopics4.gif
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Foil to foil only, but maybe several layers.
Only have a thousand or so 50ah, so will need to parallel the 11s for my uses. >100ah
Tabs may only reach to about 4p without bus bar of some kind.
Maybe I will need tab to cu welds.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Oct 12, 2017 7:38 pm

Maybe I need a partner with a welder?
:wink:

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Oct 12, 2017 7:48 pm

Quick Details

Type: Other

Voltage: AC 110V or 220V +/-10%, 50/60Hz
Current: Request
Rated Capacity: 2000W
Rated Duty Cycle: Request
Dimensions: 360mm(L) x 480mm(W) x 200mm(H)
Weight: 60kg
Usage: Welding Machine
Certification: CE Certificate
After-sales Service Provided: Engineers available to service machinery overseas
Color: Request
Warranty: 1 Year, One Year limited warranty with lifetime support
Features: Preset welding programs selectable for Al and Cu
Welding Area: 4mm(L) x 4mm(W)
Welding Head: The welding heads and welding bases are included
Controller: 360mm(L) x 480mm(W) x 200mm(H)
Welder: 200mm(L) x 460mm(W) x 270mm(H)
Material: Steel
Ultrasonic Frequency: 40K Hz
Max. Welding Thickness: Max. 20 layers

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by PaulD » Oct 13, 2017 12:21 pm

Cool. Looks like that might work. The machine I was referring to is $40K and doens't belong to me!
At 2000W, not sure how it could run off of 110V.
Inwo wrote:Quick Details

Type: Other

Voltage: AC 110V or 220V +/-10%, 50/60Hz
Current: Request
Rated Capacity: 2000W
Rated Duty Cycle: Request
Dimensions: 360mm(L) x 480mm(W) x 200mm(H)
Weight: 60kg
Usage: Welding Machine
Certification: CE Certificate
After-sales Service Provided: Engineers available to service machinery overseas
Color: Request
Warranty: 1 Year, One Year limited warranty with lifetime support
Features: Preset welding programs selectable for Al and Cu
Welding Area: 4mm(L) x 4mm(W)
Welding Head: The welding heads and welding bases are included
Controller: 360mm(L) x 480mm(W) x 200mm(H)
Welder: 200mm(L) x 460mm(W) x 270mm(H)
Material: Steel
Ultrasonic Frequency: 40K Hz
Max. Welding Thickness: Max. 20 layers

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Oct 13, 2017 11:44 pm

Tnx, tempted to spend my battery money on it. Easy come easy go.
If it works, I could maybe get 1/2 price when I'm through with it.

Hate renting. Then I'd have to hustle. Like having a real job.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 14, 2017 12:33 am

I guess 2,000 watts is 220v. Now the big question is how much ? Be nice to talk to someone who has one.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Oct 14, 2017 9:00 am

Exactly, I have know idea what I'd be getting into.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Oct 17, 2017 12:25 am

Found a $1500 handheld welder.
Last edited by Inwo on Oct 17, 2017 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Oct 17, 2017 9:57 pm

PaulD wrote:I would recommend asking the welder vendor what materials and thicknesses the machine can weld. The little ones for welding current collector foils likely don't have the power to do thick tabs. Just as a reference point, I nearly maxed out a 1.5kw welder doing 3X 0.2mm copper tabs to 1.6mm copper busbar with large pads (maybe a 0.5in2 area) on the horn. Aluminum to copper required about 75% of the power.
If you are just doing aluminum to aluminum, less power is needed. The vendor should be able to tell you.

Cheap way out for 800 watt handheld welder. Should be ok aluminum only. If it won't weld to cu bus, I'll bolt terminations.
Weld series connections only. I'd rather risk $1500 than $5000.
Think I could resell it if I want a bigger one later.
This will be my tuition payment.
Been there done that! :D

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Nov 15, 2017 4:38 pm

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by PaulD » Nov 15, 2017 7:14 pm

Ultrasonic welding is awesome, but my recommendation is to just punch holes in the tabs and put a few screws and nuts with washers or plates to sandwich the tabs... unless you are going into mass production. Bolted connections are pretty good. You'll want some kind of anti-ox on the joints unless those tabs are nickel plated.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by fechter » Nov 15, 2017 10:04 pm

Be sure to wear hearing protection if you use one of those!
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Nov 15, 2017 10:41 pm

Come again! :D

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by fechter » Nov 16, 2017 12:26 am

In the picture, I didn't see an anvil. Just any chunk of metal? I'll be interested to see how that works. It may have other applications, like plastic welding.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Nov 26, 2017 10:35 pm

Inwo wrote:
Oct 12, 2017 7:28 pm
PaulD wrote:I would recommend asking the welder vendor what materials and thicknesses the machine can weld. The little ones for welding current collector foils likely don't have the power to do thick tabs. Just as a reference point, I nearly maxed out a 1.5kw welder doing 3X 0.2mm copper tabs to 1.6mm copper busbar with large pads (maybe a 0.5in2 area) on the horn. Aluminum to copper required about 75% of the power.
If you are just doing aluminum to aluminum, less power is needed. The vendor should be able to tell you.
You have experience with ultrasonic welding? I'm starting from zero.
I'll get the specs. Means nothing to me!
Ok, I need profesional help.
Welder works, but I have no idea what I'm doing.

What is "shake time"?

What is best anvil? Wood, bakelite, copper bar, all work the same.

What prevents aluminum welding to horn? Adjust settings? Silicon lube or oil works. Is that ok?

I'm welding .35mm soft al tabs together.
85% power and 3 seconds. Reasonable? 0 shake time. 0 delay.

Contact points= 4 * 3/16" cross hatched pads. Like picture.
Being handheld it's hard to keep level constant pressure. Using about 5-10lb at head. Guess.

How dangerous. Touching horn? Kills tissue, burns, long term risks?

Any advice will help. Steve may stop in next week. Emiata?
He may have some ideas.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Nov 26, 2017 10:35 pm

Inwo wrote:
Oct 12, 2017 7:28 pm
PaulD wrote:I would recommend asking the welder vendor what materials and thicknesses the machine can weld. The little ones for welding current collector foils likely don't have the power to do thick tabs. Just as a reference point, I nearly maxed out a 1.5kw welder doing 3X 0.2mm copper tabs to 1.6mm copper busbar with large pads (maybe a 0.5in2 area) on the horn. Aluminum to copper required about 75% of the power.
If you are just doing aluminum to aluminum, less power is needed. The vendor should be able to tell you.
You have experience with ultrasonic welding? I'm starting from zero.
I'll get the specs. Means nothing to me!
Ok, I need profesional help.
Welder works, but I have no idea what I'm doing.

What is "shake time"?

What is best anvil? Wood, bakelite, copper bar, all work the same.

What prevents aluminum welding to horn? Adjust settings? Silicon lube or oil works. Is that ok?

I'm welding .35mm soft al tabs together.
85% power and 3 seconds. Reasonable? 0 shake time. 0 delay.

Contact points= 4 * 3/16" cross hatched pads. Like picture.
Being handheld it's hard to keep level constant pressure. Using about 5-10lb at head. Guess.

How dangerous. Touching horn? Kills tissue, burns, long term risks?

Any advice will help. Steve may stop in next week. Emiyata
He may have some ideas.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Nov 29, 2017 3:34 pm

Steep learning curve.

Handheld make it difficult to get consistent welds.

Yesterday I put together a jig to hold alignment.

Testing anvils today. Seems a harder anvil ie. stainless steel works better.
1 sec down from 3 sec. More down pressure is welding with little sticking.
20-50lb unmeasured as of now.

Wrinkle looks worse than it is and is mostly from multiple weld tests.
I'm just learning!
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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Nov 29, 2017 3:37 pm

This would be a job for Big Blue Saw!
All day on my drill press, milling.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Dec 01, 2017 7:16 pm

Steve was down today to help dial in.

Two man job so I added some Rube Goldberg automation.

See if I can link video.
https://youtu.be/4ECL24WzP1w

Getting good welds with 200psi, 1sec, and 85% amplitude. 800 watt "handheld" welder.

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by PaulD » Dec 02, 2017 11:32 am

Nice job getting that working! Have you tried to peel any of those welds apart?

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Re: Ultrasonic tab welding

Post by Inwo » Dec 02, 2017 12:21 pm

Yes, it rips the tabs. Tested on some oxidized wrinkled junk batteries.
We find if the pattern is burned thru to opposite side, weld is good.
Also that more pressure and less time works best for our application.
Steep learning curve with little advice from manufacturer.

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