How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 05 2018 11:32am

The cans that make up 18650 cells are nickel-plated steel. So using nickel-plated steel buses is equal to the conductivity of the cans. Nickel is more expensive than steel, and customers are very price conscious, so...customers vote for crappy products with their dollars.

I vote for copper buses with silver-plate on the contact points to prevent corrosion.

Nickel conductivity is 22 IACS and Brass is 28 (25% better), so why don't we see more brass buses? OR...nickel-plated brass? OR...nickel-plated aluminum?

Cast Steel is IACS 10 (BOOO!)

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by neptronix » Dec 05 2018 12:02pm

There's a few problems with China batteries..

1) The customer wants the cheapest battery possible, because batteries are still very expensive..
2) People who are new to EVs don't know what quality is, and there's a steady stream of new people who are willing to buy low quality goods.
3) The US Govt still gives China subsidized shipping rates, therefore you can buy a battery that is broken from the factory and not realistically return it because it's too expensive - so there's little financial incentive for the offshore seller to sell good products that last.
4) With China's ultra restrictive ebike laws, how are they really gonna test the higher power stuff to see whether it holds up or not? I doubt that the proper testing that comes with riding a bike with these components happens at all.

Ok, somewhere in China, there are a few good battery sellers, right? but a looooooot of bad ones.. because they are rewarded for being bad. Ultrafire is still selling cells even though many in the know understand that they're rewrapping factory rejects or even smaller cells in a counterfeit case.

The end result is that a forum like this is mostly full of complaints about low quality Chinese parts, and questions about whether some random unbranded China part is good or not.

It's almost like a ritual for new members - first, you join and get excited about ebikes because you see people building cool stuff on here. Second, you spec out parts from a recommended vendor and get shocked by the total price. Third, you buy some low quality stuff and come on here to complain about it. And finally, after you've learned your lesson about this, you start looking at recommended vendors with a reputation for quality again and build the bike right :mrgreen:

But in this case, an American vendor didn't even do their homework on the quality of their product at all. Anyone with years of experience would have pulled apart a sample pack and went 'nope, i see how that's gonna fail'.

This is why i only buy things from companies headed by people who are very detail oriented.. otherwise, they're just a middle man for low quality goods.
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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 05 2018 1:42pm

What's with the caddle and filling with water. Just make a drain or waterproof and or fill with Vaseline or ?

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by amberwolf » Dec 05 2018 2:49pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 05 2018 12:02pm
3) The US Govt still gives China subsidized shipping rates, therefore you can buy a battery that is broken from the factory and not realistically return it because it's too expensive - so there's little financial incentive for the offshore seller to sell good products that last.
AFAIK the subsidized rates only go up to around four and a half pounds, so not many ebike/etc batteries will qualify for that (though individual cells do for the ebike-sized stuff and some of the bigger car-sized stuff).

My brother said there's also been something in the news about cancelling the treaty that gives them that discount. I haven't looked it up so I don't know when that will go into effect, but when it does it's likely to raise shipping costs for those small items significantly. I expect that just about all of the "free shipping" on small items on ebay, amazon, ali*, etc., will go away, or the costs of the items will all go up to compensate.
4) With China's ultra restrictive ebike laws, how are they really gonna test the higher power stuff to see whether it holds up or not? I doubt that the proper testing that comes with riding a bike with these components happens at all.
Testing of any kind is unlikely to happen, becuase it costs money. The cheaper the battery, the less likely any form of testing, at any level, is occuring. A battery could be completely miswired, even missing interconnects between cells, and still be shipped because it isn't checked for any functionality, for the cheapest stuff.

Manufacturers that do test their stuff can do it in-house; doesn't have to be done on the road so it doesnt' matter what the local laws are for the bikes themselves. But it costs money to do the testing, even if they only do it for the prototype and not for the final goods, so that increases the costs of the goods. If they do it for every unit, it makes them even more expensive--not just because of the testing costs, but because when they find a failure they have to either repair it or trash it, and that costs even more money in time, labor, materials, etc.

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by tomjasz » Dec 05 2018 3:46pm

"The poster child for the movement to overhaul the rates was the "Mighty Mug," a patented spill-proof travel coffee mug. It cost the U.S. company $6.30 to ship by regular mail from New Jersey, the company CEO Jayme Smaldone wrote in February. But a Chinese company that sold a knock-off version could ship it to the same location from 8,000 miles away for just $1.40."
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by sophia.unitpackpower » Dec 06 2018 1:33am

tomjasz wrote:
Dec 05 2018 11:16am
Why does UPP choose to use nickel coated rather than pure nickel strips?
Tom, we are using both, pure nickel is harder to welding, and cost more.
If using pure nickel, several dollars extra cost on each battery
Ebike battery in USA ans Germany stock, provide local after sale service

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by docw009 » Dec 06 2018 4:57pm

Here's a Luna Dolphin. purchased in August 2015, shortly after Eric started selling ebike stuff.

It's been ratlling and I thought I would put in something to cushion the cells. Opened up, the was only one piece of foam rubber in there, and it had turned hard and shrunk. The cells would slid back and forth. This case does not have a notched bezel along the edge like my other 48V dolphin battery. That feature seals out water far better.
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This is why the USB port never worked. No power for it. I knew that.
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52V, 14S3P, on the smaller side, but they are 30Q cells. No cell holders were used. The array appears to be held together by the spot welds, plus shrink wrap. There is cardboard over the welds for some protection.
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For spacers, I am trying little plastic bags filled with a shot of expanding urethane foam. Have to be careful not to use too much. In this one, I put in too much foam.
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The history on this battery is funny, I ordered it as a 48V unit, but they shipped me a 52V model, labelled as 48V. I undercharged it with a 48V charger and it never had enough capacity. Eventually, I opened it to inspect the cells and found it was a 14S.

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by neptronix » Dec 06 2018 5:29pm

Oh jesus, that's bad as well.

At least your cells didn't get dented like this one i pulled off a customer's bike for inspection just because i knew it was an early luna product.

Ended up telling the customer that this is a garage battery and should never ever be stored inside due to physical damage plus flammable chemistry. I added appropriate padding that is temperature rated for what he planned to draw from the pack and mounted it in a frame bag so that the weight doesn't rest on the cell that got dented inwards about 5mm, even if the padding loosens over time.

I wonder how many fires are due to shitty battery designs like this.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by tomjasz » Dec 06 2018 5:50pm

From the 4 early batteries I opened up, all were somewhat different in construction. Leading me to believe there were several, all different sources. I do have a Dolphin from Luna and one from UPP that are identical, down to the BMS, Kapton, sticky cardboard and reinforced tape used. The worst lot I saw were the ones that needed the BMS flashed to reset. THAT was a bummer. Talking people into their own repairs was a pain in the arse. Living proof that people will believe anything if it gets repeated in a forum or blog often enough. To me claiming batteries are USA made, and letting the lie continue is the worst of all marketing ploys.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by tomjasz » Dec 06 2018 5:51pm

docw009 wrote:
Dec 06 2018 4:57pm
Here's a Luna Dolphin. purchased in August 2015, shortly after Eric started selling ebike stuff.


30Q in 2015?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by tomjasz » Dec 06 2018 5:54pm

amberwolf wrote:
Dec 05 2018 2:49pm

AFAIK the subsidized rates only go up to around four and a half pounds, so not many ebike/etc batteries will qualify for that (though individual cells do for the ebike-sized stuff and some of the bigger car-sized stuff).

Spot on USPS does not ship larger battery packs. Legally at least.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by docw009 » Dec 07 2018 12:08pm

tomjasz wrote:
Dec 06 2018 5:51pm
docw009 wrote:
Dec 06 2018 4:57pm
Here's a Luna Dolphin. purchased in August 2015, shortly after Eric started selling ebike stuff.


30Q in 2015?
Yes. It was August, 2015.

And I found out the urethane foam needs air to cure. I had to do it with a cardboard form.

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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by neptronix » Dec 07 2018 12:23pm

tomjasz wrote:
Dec 06 2018 5:50pm
From the 4 early batteries I opened up, all were somewhat different in construction. Leading me to believe there were several, all different sources. I do have a Dolphin from Luna and one from UPP that are identical, down to the BMS, Kapton, sticky cardboard and reinforced tape used. The worst lot I saw were the ones that needed the BMS flashed to reset. THAT was a bummer. Talking people into their own repairs was a pain in the arse. Living proof that people will believe anything if it gets repeated in a forum or blog often enough. To me claiming batteries are USA made, and letting the lie continue is the worst of all marketing ploys.
So they were just selling random shit.. :lol:
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Re: How a Lunacycle / Hailong battery fares after 2 years..

Post by amberwolf » Dec 07 2018 10:43pm

docw009 wrote:
Dec 07 2018 12:08pm
And I found out the urethane foam needs air to cure. I had to do it with a cardboard form.
Usually it's moisture that cures the stuff in the spraycans. Some might need other things, gases from the air, but I don't remember any that I've used that had to be in open air.

Earlier this century when I worked at a computer repair place, sometimes we'd ahve to make a box / packing to ship a big item in, and we'd use trashbags that we misted water into and then placed around the item with the nozzle of a spraycan of foam sealant stuff stuck into the opening of the bag with a few rubber bands to hold it shut against the nozzle. Empty the can into the bag, so it form fits the bag around the item, then pull the nozzle out, and the rubber bands usually sealed it well enough; if they didn't one of those black and silver folder clips would usually fix it until the foam cured. Bigger stuff sometimes needed two to four bags around them.

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