New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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zzoing   10 kW

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New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by zzoing » Oct 31 2021 5:23am

Hi everybody, I've been appreciating the ES forums since since the duct-tape days! Thanks for teaching me so much about chemistry and alloys.

This is a preview for a crowdfunding campaign for an easy lithium battery box www.batgroupcraft.com Sorry guys, the video is rough at the edges. Sorry that the prototypes could be better constructed and professional.

I feel a bit arrogant for stepping on other ES'ers toes because they have worked so much these technologies too, i.e. JDevo, AM-Tech, DavidC and many others. I want to be very inclusive with this technology launch attempt.

If It goes O.K. I'll give free electrical prizes to at least 3 ES'ers who worked a lot on weldless tech and 10% discount for all prior ES member, plus another 10% discount if i reach a high enough funding to supply 26650 within year 1.

Here's the video, i have to fix the dubbing:


Everything on the box is minimalist to give easiest machining/price and maximum modding potential, using generic supplies, boards, bolts and so forth.

The studs are welded from nickel onto copper strips, rather than stamped metal. It's an option worth studying: i.e. same tooling can deliver woven braid studs, for salvaged cells with flecked terminals.

3D PRINTING A BOX: I have coded a complete prototype-revision STL generator that instantly renders STL boxes, I'm lacking the precision metal pieces and insulators for them! It's a program where you write in the requested dimensions and press return:

P:10; S:20; Walls:5;//mm C:18650; >> Renders 20S 10P mesh with 5mm walls for 18650.

The stl generator will be free to DL in due time, to 3D print retail-revision boxes of any size instantly. You can also specify voids and extensions to the boxes, for BMS, GPS trackers and other things to safeguard the battery.

Elastomer can be swapped for springs, it's just less compact and durable: springs alloys can resist creep for 25+ years, and they are 1mm high. I would like to help people that don't want to build a complex pack, and people here can use the tech to build boxes for free;)


BUILDING BOXES USING BOARDS: A pro box is made of generic plastic board in order to avoid injection moulding and reduce price. Plastic board comes in 120x120cm and 240x120cm. I'll supply kit boards if time permits. It's wise to collect and use free board (fiberglass / FR4 / Tg>120'C / HDPE / ABS) if you find it.

You have to use edge reinforcements https://www.google.com/search?q=cornier ... n&tbm=isch It's also possible to route box joints using a carpentry router similar to a finger-jointer/dovetailer. lasered box-joints are only efficent for acrylic. https://www.festi.info/boxes.py/TwoPiece?language=enor

For low a volume workshop building many sizes of box, some injection moulded plastic elements of grid like appearance representing the rail-guide lid recesses are welded to 120x120 sized plastic/FR4 boards (using ultrasound/solvent). The giant boards covered with rail guides are then milled into 3s/6s/7s/10s/13s/14s/20s boards of any P value that have been ordered.
Image

ADVANCED GROUPING DESIGNS:
At ES we wish to build varied geometries of cell groups, so I did a study of transverse bridges that fit into the current design. There's two varants:

A/ snip templates out from big grids of contacts
large grids of contacts of i.e. 2x20 3x20 let you build 100 amp packs you can chop them into specific shapes. You can join shapes together by superimposing secondry ribbons inside the insulators, the spring will clamp extensions together and the insulators will keep them fixed.

B/ clip together smaller pieces into big groups using clip-together transverse connections.
I have studied tranverse clip-in bridges: For the 18650 box, they can be at least 3mm2 / AWG 12 / 30A at 60'C, when limited to using 0.5mm high pressed metal. So a group of 4 cells using 2 cross-connectors is 60A... On a 21700 box there's extra space for about 40A a piece. The illustration is only is MK1 version, for 30A they'd use 0.4mm copper.

I'll supply an STL generator which lets you arrange custom insulation channels for lids, to accompany any custom routing geometry.

If you want this design go into become available and cheap, The best thing you can do is: send me a brief video of yourself giving your view of the tech. You can boost the chance of it launching and supplying 26650, woven contacts and 21700.
Launch day is as soon as enough people are on the mailing list, so if you inform a lot of engineers and ecologists, I can launch sooner.


It's is an ES project. If you tell me to do something, I'll probably do it.

Do you think that that the green energy movement wants a 26650 vs 21700 format box the most? ( 26650 LiFePo from china is about 70 cents for 6000mAh for camping-cars and off-grid energy).

Do you want transparent lids and thermochromic color strips, to give a lid view like an IR camera? Image

Is the name OK with you? Words like LabWatt are always taken. Tell me a good and available name and I'll use it!!!

These campaigns must sell T-Shirts/perks to aid sales. Please contact me if you wish to supply art, i.e. animals equipped with rocket launchers and other comical art.

The financing would go into collaborative solidworks/autocad studies between EE experts in contactor physics/alloys/platings/pressings, insulation and springs. We can refine the 5-6 central components by 1mm for highest current throughput, and emphasis based on your suggestions.

You know what I think about patents? If anything, they should be in the name of five ES engineers, so they could vote to act if a multinational corporation was oppressing small companies, if it ever came to that :)

Cheers!
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zzoing   10 kW

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by zzoing » Oct 31 2021 8:35am

Alright, i think the video has got some communication fails i didnt see :D sometimes I dont see the forest for the trees. I'll fix that. sry about that.
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Mart76   10 mW

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by Mart76 » Oct 31 2021 11:49am

looks good. I am missing cell-level-fusing.

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by john61ct » Oct 31 2021 11:54am

that is not something many users would want

unheard of in a solderless no-weld design

pretty much requires welding the fusible link to the cell

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by drdrs » Oct 31 2021 6:09pm

Trampa claims cell level fusing using an integrated PTC in the PCB battery contact.

https://trampaboards.com/18650-pcb-pack ... 28977.html
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=101184
5kW ASI 2000, Crystalyte, Vruzend 14s5p

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=104324
VESC, MG 310, Vruzend 12s3p

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=109860
VESC, Crystalyte, Custom Compression Battery 14s5p

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zzoing   10 kW

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by zzoing » Nov 01 2021 9:58am

Mart76 wrote:
Oct 31 2021 11:49am
looks good. I am missing cell-level-fusing.
Thanks John! design for some SMD disk cell level fuses, I will add them if you wish.

It adds a bit to the price and complexity, especially in a box where you can easily check and change the cells. Samsung/LG/panasonic all integrate cell-level PTC switch and microfoam nanoporous technology in the battery which melts and stops ions going through if there are high temperatures.

I just programmed 3D for 12 hours to upgrade the 25 seconds of the video, and i have nervous exhaustion so I can't redub the audio. It's 100% designed in France lol
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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Nov 02 2021 10:03pm

zzoing wrote:
Oct 31 2021 5:23am

Do you think that that the green energy movement wants a 26650 vs 21700 format box the most? ( 26650 LiFePo from china is about 70 cents for 6000mAh for camping-cars and off-grid energy).
There aren’t any REAL lifepo4 in 26650 capable of 6ah.
The most energy dense lifepo4 I think is these
https://batteryhookup.com/products/16-k ... epo4-cells

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zzoing   10 kW

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by zzoing » Nov 02 2021 10:48pm

Oh yeah! cheers i thought that was a bit high! I only deal with 18650 at the moment and I looked at alibaba volume prices and i didn't do the maths to know if it the big companies on alibaba are misleading. cheers for that.
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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by john61ct » Nov 03 2021 1:41am

Only A123/LithiumWerks is not misleading

The greater the mAh claimed for a given predefined form factor

the more skeptical you should be of the brand and the seller

Apples to apples coddling care, I'd be surprised if they delivered even 50% of the lifespan A123 does.

In stressful conditions maybe 20-30%

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by zzoing » Nov 03 2021 7:34am

Hey it's awesome to see the A123 is still deliver top quality lithium. Yes I recall that some chinese LiFePo doesn't even handle cold temperature charging, do you think A123 has solved that issue of liFePo, i.e. if you charge them at 5'C they go tits up?

I can change the company name at any time, i'm trying to see what works... perhaps ba7group is better for the moment?
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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Nov 03 2021 9:19am

john61ct wrote:
Nov 03 2021 1:41am
Only A123/LithiumWerks is not misleading

The greater the mAh claimed for a given predefined form factor

the more skeptical you should be of the brand and the seller

Apples to apples coddling care, I'd be surprised if they delivered even 50% of the lifespan A123 does.

In stressful conditions maybe 20-30%
I’ve run discharge tests on these k2 cells and they showed well at 1.0 and and 3.5 amp discharge. Can’t say anything about cycle life at this point though. (I also have a lot of A123 and just a random pic of the constant load I use to test)
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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Nov 03 2021 9:33am

zzoing wrote:
Nov 03 2021 7:34am
I can change the company name at any time, i'm trying to see what works... perhaps ba7group is better for the moment?
The name isn’t important compared to the box. You have a bunch of big claims in ur video related to the box but then say it’s not done and the crowd finding money would go to multiple people to design it. Why not just get to the heart of the matter and design and test a single box? People who would want to buy a box will want to know what kind of current it can do and will want to be assured of how durable it is and you make a lot of claims related to durability. How about showing how durable it is? Testing.

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by john61ct » Nov 03 2021 1:59pm

zzoing wrote:Hey it's awesome to see the A123 is still deliver top quality lithium. Yes I recall that some chinese LiFePo doesn't even handle cold temperature charging, do you think A123 has solved that issue of liFePo, i.e. if you charge them at 5'C they go tits up?
Chemistry is chemistry. Anything over 0.4C requires higher temperatures to avoid losing cycle lifetime.

Just because a battery is better quality in other performance specs, does not make it more tolerant of fast charging below 20°C

Winston made extraordinary cold temp claims, specifically the founder Winston Chung Hing Ka, but I never saw them verified, everyone is super skeptical.

As far as "tits up" that low point, dendrite formation at say 0.01C rate depends on the specs from mfg, I'd say - 10°C would be a ballpark if no datasheet is available.

LTO is the only LI chemistry afaik that can handle 5C charge rate without reduced lifespan.

It can also handle a lower temperature (vs C-rate curve)

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by leffex » Nov 07 2021 3:19am

zzoing wrote:
Oct 31 2021 5:23am
Hi everybody, ...
Hi

Awesome work. You'll be on my awsome list with jehgarcia hbpowerwall. ebike.ca guy and many more

From the looks of it I think it is very promising.
Salestech in an ebike store

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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by zzoing » Nov 07 2021 5:09am

Hey Leffex! That's so nice i'm lost for words. I'll mission to implement the best quality :)

I have to publish a technical description to this forum, because a millionaire patented AM Tech's 2014 illustrations in 2018 as a patent, and I have to avoid that, otherwise a lawyer some day can tell me i didn't publish this idea and I can't make it myself... Personnally my ideal is that this is open sourced to all companies that don't have labor union surveillance and offshore accounts :)
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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by zzoing » Nov 07 2021 5:45am

here's the same for the breadboard. It's just to avoid someone telling me one day that i can't sell these because some lawyer sais so! I want to do startups in acoustics, education projects, robotics, if i can one day, so this lithium technology will be one for free files choice of compatible variants that all can fit in the same spaces.
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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by zzoing » Nov 24 2021 3:40am

I previously tested a 54 cell 3D printed box at 1.5 KW and the batteries were far in excess of their maximum ratings, the box ran cool. I sampled 100 impact continuity tests at 48KHz (i need to record 50MHz).

Project status is:

- Messed up the preview video, it's a bit embarassing.

- Had incredible response from the community, was lost for words at the kindness and encouragement, had 100 subscriptions on the mailing list in 7 days.

- Now editing a funnier and nicer video including BMS schematics. (BMS pics are lacking insulation, OK)

- This work gives me brain fog so then I can't present the new video because i get exhausted :?

- You can get this 3D bbox viewing program for PC and Mac soon:
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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Nov 25 2021 10:25am

What’s the silver colored round contact and how does it attach to the copper?
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Re: New Easy Lithium Weldless Box crowdfunding project

Post by zzoing » Nov 25 2021 12:01pm

It's laser cut and polished 2mm pure nickel disks welded onto 1mm copper, which is welded using flux and solder, although it can be spot and ultrasound welded too. An advantage of using nickel contacts in high vibration settings is that the contacts become a mirror-flat shim, thereby increasing the contact area.

The batteries are clamped in 2kg force electrical contacts and they weigh 50 grams, so moving them via newtonian mechanics impulses requires forces that are equivalent to jumping off high ledges without even padding the battery box...

It's possible to use weldable nickel plated aluminium, i'd just go with whatever is highest performance and least costly.
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