Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

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Jil

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Hi,
I’m going to build a high-capacity 14S battery, around 25Ah. I don’t know what to choose between the Panasonic 4250mAh (6P) and the Samsung 5000mAh (5P).
I want good current capabilities but not so high (max discharge for the whole battery 20A, max charge current 20A), good life cycle, and compacity.
Which one should I choose ?
 
Personally, I would pick the 5P of Samsung 50E since it would involve less connections and can easily provide the 20 amps discharge current. Other factors you might want to consider would be cost, size, weight and cycle life. If you haven't seen this already, try this site to compare their discharge characteristics at various currents:

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common26650comparator.php

ncr20700b $8.69 USD per cell
https://liionwholesale.com/products/panasonic-sanyo-ncr20700b?variant=30186936017

50E $6.79 USD per cell
https://liionwholesale.com/products/samsung-50e-21700?variant=12667804450910


That should help you get a better idea.
 
INR is NMC chemistry I believe LiNiMnCoO2

NCR is NCA chemistry, aka LiNiCoAlO2

some googling may explain relative power density / energy rates vs longevity advantages of each
 
pwd said:
ncr20700b $8.69 USD per cell
https://liionwholesale.com/products/panasonic-sanyo-ncr20700b?variant=30186936017

50E $6.79 USD per cell
https://liionwholesale.com/products/samsung-50e-21700?variant=12667804450910
Click to expand...
Great pricing!

Is that a known good, trusted supplier, no factory seconds BS?

 
In 14S5P you have on 20A discharge exactly 4A peak current on every battery. Both NCR20700B, INR21700-50E, or even LG Chem INR21700 M50 (which I have in my battery) are suitable.
The 20A Charging current is too high for life cycle. I would not exceed, if I were you, the 0.3C for the battery. Especially the high capacity batteries do not tolerate high charging current much.
 
you are not going to get any decent cycle life on any of the 2xx cell form factors, not yet anway. if you want hard cycle life you need to dial it back to 18650 and stay under 3000mAh.
 
flippy said:
you are not going to get any decent cycle life on any of the 2xx cell form factors. if you want hard cycle life you need to dial it back to 18650 and stay under 3000mAh.
Click to expand...

What do you understand with "decent"? :mrgreen:
My first battery was based on Sony Konion US18650V3 and it last at least 6 years (around 800 cycles), but the energy density was too low. My next battery was based on the INR18650-30Q and was and is still great (even at the winter time). My new battery in a little frog I bought here: https://enerprof.de/shop/batteries/ebike-and-pedelec-batteries/48v-li-ion-batteries/frog-2/enerpower-ebike-battery-48v-13s-8-7ah-frog-copy-copy/
Usually with 18650 battery cells you can´t reach in this case more than 3P = 10.2Ah-10.3Ah at 48V
 
i have done some initial testing with 21000 form factor cells and with all my testing the capacity and IR takes a nosedive after 2~300 cycles. especially compaired to lower capacity 18650 like the 2900mAh's its painfully obvious.
21000 cells are still a bit of a beta tester stage.

i a waiting on getting a bunch of model 3 cells. those should give great perspective compared to the competition.
 
A123 26650 are LFP

Totally different chemistry, fantastic longevity if treated well, should use a setpoint-adjustable charger and BMS.

and great discharge rate when needed.

But less energy dense, what is the use case?

 
john61ct said:
A123 26650 are LFP

Totally different chemistry, fantastic longevity if treated well, should use a setpoint-adjustable charger and BMS.

and great discharge rate when needed.

But less energy dense, what is the use case?
Click to expand...

26650 in a little frog? with 48V? With LiFePo4? you need 15S so maybe enough place for 2P?! With around 5Ah not enough Wh to reach the next super market :D
 
john61ct said:
A123 26650 are LFP
Totally different chemistry, fantastic longevity if treated well, should use a setpoint-adjustable charger and BMS.
and great discharge rate when needed.
But less energy dense, what is the use case?
Click to expand...
LPF has utter shit power density and are expensive per Wh.

with current 18650 prices and performance there is virturally never a reason to use LFP in a mobile application.
the only reason i ever made a LFP based battery was for the sole reason that the vehicle had a 12V alternator and the customer wanted a direct drop in replacement without changing the alternator voltage. this is not needed for 24V trucks as that can be used with a regular 7S lipo battery.
 
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?

https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-33j-21700-3270mah-3-2a-battery/

On paper they seem to be touting it as 29E's big brother.

https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung-33J-a-21700-Li-ion-battery-designed-for-Tesla
 
DjSpaceGhost said:
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?

https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-33j-21700-3270mah-3-2a-battery/

On paper they seem to be touting it as 29E's big brother.

https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung-33J-a-21700-Li-ion-battery-designed-for-Tesla
Click to expand...

Usually those 21700 have a cut-off-voltage of 2.5V. Most of the BMS have a cut-off at 3V and from my experience with a battery US18650V3 from Sony (now Murata) I used it for over 6 years, so around 1200-1400 cycles (not complete cycles). The battery lost over the time around 20% of its capacity, but I can still ride it (I moved from 36V to 48V).
Why am I telling you that?
because on the technical specifications of Sony, This battery should have around 800 cycles.
I guess, that if at that time, I had charged it only up to 4.1V, maybe I would have reached even the 2000 cycles?!
Bullshit? most probably no, but how much real capacity from 3V to 4,1V in this 21700? probably the same like in the US18650V3 (around 2150 mAh)
 
Easy_Rider said:
DjSpaceGhost said:
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?

https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-33j-21700-3270mah-3-2a-battery/

On paper they seem to be touting it as 29E's big brother.

https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung-33J-a-21700-Li-ion-battery-designed-for-Tesla
Click to expand...

Usually those 21700 have a cut-off-voltage of 2.5V. Most of the BMS have a cut-off at 3V and from my experience with a battery US18650V3 from Sony (now Murata) I used it for over 6 years, so around 1200-1400 cycles (not complete cycles). The battery lost over the time around 20% of its capacity, but I can still ride it (I moved from 36V to 48V).
Why am I telling you that?
because on the technical specifications of Sony, This battery should have around 800 cycles.
I guess, that if at that time, I had charged it only up to 4.1V, maybe I would have reached even the 2000 cycles?!
Bullshit? most probably no, but how much real capacity from 3V to 4,1V in this 21700? probably the same like in the US18650V3 (around 2150 mAh)
Click to expand...

Well this cell is supposed to have 2k cycles at that voltage and STILL have the 3200+ mAH . It was designed for Tesla's newest PowerWall supposedly. Your bike is sick by the way.
 
DjSpaceGhost said:
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?


https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung-33J-a-21700-Li-ion-battery-designed-for-Tesla

Well this cell is supposed to have 2k cycles at that voltage and STILL have the 3200+ mAH . It was designed for Tesla's newest PowerWall supposedly.
Click to expand...
Well, if you read the specs..that 2000 cycles is based on a 1.6 amp discharge from 4.1 to 3.0v , with a 75% capacity retention at the end !
So not really a useful comparison to any other cell we might consider for a “mobile” pack
But it does highlight the “compromise” necessary for high energy density vs power density, vs cycle life
 
Hillhater said:
DjSpaceGhost said:
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?


https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung-33J-a-21700-Li-ion-battery-designed-for-Tesla

Well this cell is supposed to have 2k cycles at that voltage and STILL have the 3200+ mAH . It was designed for Tesla's newest PowerWall supposedly.
Click to expand...
Well, if you read the specs..that 2000 cycles is based on a 1.6 amp discharge from 4.1 to 3.0v , with a 75% capacity retention at the end !
So not really a useful comparison to any other cell we might consider for a “mobile” pack
But it does highlight the “compromise” necessary for high energy density vs power density, vs cycle life
Click to expand...

I see your point. There's so much to learn . I love it.
 
flippy said:
john61ct said:
A123 26650 are LFP
Totally different chemistry, fantastic longevity if treated well, should use a setpoint-adjustable charger and BMS.
and great discharge rate when needed.
But less energy dense, what is the use case?
Click to expand...
LPF has utter shit power density and are expensive per Wh.

with current 18650 prices and performance there is virturally never a reason to use LFP in a mobile application.
Click to expand...
Well that's like, just your opinion, man.

There are thousands and thousands of users very happy with theirs. Living on a boat, or any small living space on land as well, unattended charging and discharge with say 800 or 1200Ah under the bed, personally my **very** strong believe is LFP is the **only** safe LI chemistry to DIY.

Victron, Super-B, Green Orca, Oceanvolt, Lithionics, CALB, Sinopoly, Winston/Thundersky, GBS

are all competing in an LFP market worth billions every month, and maybe 1% of that is for stationary use cases.

I doubt many customers in the USD $10K and up per purchase category are using any other LI category.

Now, back to tiny packs for bikes, scooters, skateboards etc, sure energy density and price point are critical and thus these other LI dominate.

LFP actually comes out much cheaper **per year** if the use case is one where the bank will be used daily for many years or decades.

That's why I asked the OP's use case. If it's a Unimog expo vehicle or 60' cat, longevity and thermal stability may well be more important than energy density and upfront acquisition price.
 
Many people read and think, wow this battery cell is used by Tesla, must be good also for my eBike...
So if you wish to drive with 7104 cells battery with over 80 kWh you can go for that :mrgreen: , otherwise a battery for an eBike has completly other Challenges. It must have enough power (Discharge current), enough capacity and reasonable cycle-life.
 
Easy_Rider said:
The 20A Charging current is too high for life cycle. I would not exceed, if I were you, the 0.3C for the battery. Especially the high capacity batteries do not tolerate high charging current much.
Click to expand...
20A will be occasionnal, only for fast charging when travelling. For daily use, I will limit to 4A, which is around 0.2C.
My question is, for both batteries, charging around 0.7 to 1C from time to time is possible without damaging the battery ?

By the way, I made a quick calculation, the 21700 cells of the Tesla Model 3, when charged with the 250kW Supercharger, withstand a charging current of 13A (2.5C). So if Tesla thinks it's suitable to its batteries, why shouldn't it be the case for Samsung or Pansonic batteries ? Because I made a wrong calculation ? Because of different chemistery ? Because of cooling (very good on a Tesla, generally non existent on an ebike) ?
 
tesla has a VERY expensive BMS from texas instruments and a massive temperature control system capable of cooling and heating the battery to it can acutally take the power. tesla heats up the battery if you drive to a supercharger and once you hook it up it immediatly cranks up the cooling to maximum/track mode to keep the temperature from rising to much.
without the heating and cooling a model 3 would basically convert from a car to a big ball of fire within a few minutes of 250kW harging.

still, if you supercharge more then 1250kWh you get nerfed on charging speed, eventually you get nerfed down to 90kW.
 
Easy_Rider said:
Usually those 21700 have a cut-off-voltage of 2.5V. Most of the BMS have a cut-off at 3V and from my experience with a battery US18650V3 from Sony (now Murata) I used it for over 6 years, so around 1200-1400 cycles (not complete cycles). The battery lost over the time around 20% of its capacity, but I can still ride it (I moved from 36V to 48V).
Why am I telling you that?
because on the technical specifications of Sony, This battery should have around 800 cycles.
I guess, that if at that time, I had charged it only up to 4.1V, maybe I would have reached even the 2000 cycles?!
Bullshit? most probably no, but how much real capacity from 3V to 4,1V in this 21700? probably the same like in the US18650V3 (around 2150 mAh)
Click to expand...
I like to try the 21700 as well. 50e to be specific. Very good for price/performance ratio and work involved to build a pack out of these cells.
FYI. I tested 200 Sony V3 cells, aged 6 years or more at 100-600 cycles. They come out at 1750mah minimum and 2250mah maximum at an average of 1950-2000 for all the cells I tested at 0,25C discharge(0,5A).

I would go with Samsung 50e. It Is always good to charge at a lower level than discharge. Jil.
 
I don´t know, how the INR21700-50E are doing, I guess the same like the LG INR21700 M50?
But if you are into life-cycle, I guess the INR21700-40T will last for longer time. The discharge current would not harm them at all, and they are better on fast charging according to the specification of SDI.
 
Jil said:
My question is, for both batteries, charging around 0.7 to 1C from time to time is possible without damaging the battery ?
Click to expand...
There is no black and white definition of "damage".

Sacrificing a certain percentage of lifetime cycles to get fast charging when you need it is perfectly valid.

From the consumer's POV, means only go to a high rate when you do actually need to charge quickly.

Tesla wants to advertise as fast charging as possible to sell cars.

Once the warranty's past, why would they want your secondhand bank to last for decades?

 
john61ct said:
Tesla wants to advertise as fast charging as possible to sell cars.

Once the warranty's past, why would they want your secondhand bank to last for decades?
Click to expand...
Because of their image.
Advertising a battery that can last for 500.000 miles...
 
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