Charging battery faster

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
Hummina Shadeeba   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jul 29 2019 6:07pm

at the end of the page there's a list of consumer products with the batteries (bikes, cars, buses) and the manufactures that make the batteries and some sell to the general public :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-titanate_battery

ebay
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=li ... te+battery

amazon
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=titanate+bat ... b_ss_i_1_8
https://www.amazon.com/YINLONG-Titanium ... 224&sr=8-5



the graphing of the cell performance isn't a unicorn battery it comes from here:
https://www.toshiba.com/tic/power-elect ... le-battery


THESE:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/lithium-titana ... Sw1jpb~6jj
seem a super deal

fat tire I challenge you to tell me what the hell youre going on about.

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Sunder   100 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by Sunder » Jul 29 2019 11:13pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Jul 29 2019 6:07pm
s there where trolls come when out from under the bridge or what?! fat tire I challenge you to tell me what the hell youre going on about.
I was a bit perplexed by this thread, especially:
flippy wrote:
Jul 29 2019 4:20pm
name one consumer product that uses them. even if you can find a single consumer product then my conclusion still stands.
I've had some arguments with Flippy before, so I didn't really want to start all over again, but seriously, is he saying "Prove me wrong, but even if you do, I'm still right"?

Anyway, off the top of my head, Japanese only iMievs used LTO. So did Honda's Fit EV. I'm wondering if the average drive in Japan is shorter, hence the low energy density is less of a problem.

But I guess I'm still wrong? No idea.

spinningmagnets wrote:
Jul 29 2019 5:08pm
I am in the middle of assembling an LTO 12V battery for a suitcase pack, and I have chosen LTO for it's multi-year cycle-life. The nominal voltage (as far as I know) is 2.4V "per cell", so it is not used for vehicles.

As far as "fast charging", I have read that the cells I bought can be charged very fast, but the low power density means that this chemistry is rarely used for a vehicle, so...it may be a moot point.
It's actually energy density, not power density that is the problem. These things discharge like a super capacitor. Especially the ones designed for it, (e.g. Toshiba SCIB - High Power versions), can discharge at 75C. Saying the power was "Gone in 60 Seconds", would actually be under-rating them.

The market has a perception problem, which industry is working around, rather than correcting. Almost everyone I've talked to who isn't ready to buy an electric car, says that 500km is too short a range, and that taking 12+ hours to charge is too long. They even talk about the grid not coping! (Even though various places have ordered wind/hydro to stop generating over night, because there's an excess of power!)

If electric vehicles were made for thinking engineers, LTO would be the ideal battery. Even at 1/4 of the energy density, a current generation low end car could go about 125km on a single charge, and a high end car could do 250km. Still too short for the uneducated masses, but for most people, enough for >98% of all journeys (In fact the reason why Mitsubishi chose 52km for its Outlander, is that 98% of all users in Australia travel less than 50km per day).

However, if they choose a battery that could be charged at 10C, you could recharge in 6 minutes - only 3 minutes longer that it takes to pump a full tank of petrol - and actual range would be a bit moot. One of the challenges with charging at such a high rate though, is that it can be hard to deliver 100kw+ - and people think at home, they can only charge at 2.4kw (or less on 110v systems in the state), without an expensive charger. But they also never think that the only time they want to be fast charged, is when they are on long drives (not at home), and at home, even at 2.4kwh, you can put several days worth of range in overnight - Every "amateur" calculation that has been done assumes every car needs to be charged from flat to full every single night.

I've had my plugin hybrid for four years now. The additional cost of the PHEV over the equivalent full petrol model has been paid off twice over in savings on petrol, and the battery is only now starting to show signs of aging (generator cutting in at lower power, about 10% loss of range, etc). It's a pity the PHEV hasn't been pushed harder as a transition vehicle between full petrol and full battery.
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flat tire   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flat tire » Jul 29 2019 11:57pm

EV range and recharging haven't been an actual problem for most drivers most of the time since the NiMH era. People aren't real with themselves about what they need. I agree LTO's charge/discharge could be enticing in some types of vehicles. Like if you have an electric forklift or tractor or whatever.

USA homes usually have at least 200 amps of 240v available and it's trivial to get a 50 amp breaker and outlet for 10kw.

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jul 30 2019 12:02am

flat tire wrote:
Jul 29 2019 4:22pm
Those LTO cells are threaded (male) so you could bolt together interconnects. Personally I like LTO but it's not there for my ebike use. Apparently the Honda Fit EV uses LTO too so you might be able to get a good deal salvage.
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Jul 29 2019 3:51pm
waaaaah
Nobody is attacking you personally, only your bad IDEAS and the absolutely ridiculous premise that someone with this much misunderstanding of basic stuff is trying to take $40k from the community to develop a motor. Stop posting half baked, easily refutable stuff if you don't like it.
refute what? what's half baked? what bad ideas? and the misunderstanding of basic stuff?
second time you come in a thread talking crap about me ...you gunna just roll out again when I ask for an explanation?

Hummina Shadeeba   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jul 30 2019 12:09am

FLAT TIRE private message to me:
"Don't take it personally I'm just some dumbass writing to you. For all you know, you are more successful than me.
In short, you'll get better results if you do your homework before you make claims, ask questions, or disagree with someone."




I do take it personally as you attacked me personally.
I don't care how successful either of us are



put the message here as he's done this to me before and doesnt give reason for it in the threads and now a private message.

flat tire   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flat tire » Jul 30 2019 2:07am

This is pretty hilarious honestly. Nobody has personally attacked you. Read the thread, and reread my message cuz it's actually polite.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flippy » Jul 30 2019 2:11am

Sunder wrote:
Jul 29 2019 11:13pm
I've had some arguments with Flippy before, so I didn't really want to start all over again, but seriously, is he saying "Prove me wrong, but even if you do, I'm still right"?

Anyway, off the top of my head, Japanese only iMievs used LTO. So did Honda's Fit EV. I'm wondering if the average drive in Japan is shorter, hence the low energy density is less of a problem.
that honda is a concept car and not for sale as was made in limited volume as a tech showcase so you could only lease it. if you took the time to look beyond the marketing wank you would have spotted that.

the only thing in the world you can buy -as a consumer- with a LTO battery is a watch, and you have to hunt for it if you want one because its made in exteremly low volume as a technical showcase, not a commerical product just like everything else with a LTO battery.
you try walking to your local honda or mitsubishi dealship and try and buy a car with a LTO battery. good luck with that....

i was very specific in my words because i already knew the answer. so yes, my point still stands because i knew someone would bring up that honda.
Last edited by flippy on Jul 30 2019 2:18am, edited 1 time in total.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

flat tire   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flat tire » Jul 30 2019 2:18am

The Fit LTO batteries are available for sale. I would get some to try but by the time I use them there will probably be more availability.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flippy » Jul 30 2019 2:20am

flat tire wrote:
Jul 30 2019 2:18am
The Fit LTO batteries are available for sale. I would get some to try but by the time I use them there will probably be more availability.
you can buy them new from CATL (the orginal factory) if you want to. if you buy a decent amount its cheaper then the unknown junk on ebay and aliexpress.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 30 2019 6:40am

The LTO cells I have are rated for high charge and discharge (I don't have the number in front of me). They are Kokam from South Korea, and I was told they are for hybrid city buses.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flippy » Jul 30 2019 7:18am

spinningmagnets wrote:
Jul 30 2019 6:40am
The LTO cells I have are rated for high charge and discharge (I don't have the number in front of me). They are Kokam from South Korea, and I was told they are for hybrid city buses.
most cells i see are solely desinged for buses and delivery trucks. due tot their poor W/L ratio that is bascially where they belong.
everything you see in the secondhand market is from buses and other failed pet projects from locat goverments.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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scootergrisen   10 W

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by scootergrisen » Jul 30 2019 8:29am

It seems Honda EV-neo might be using lithium titanate cells.

Maybe Toshiba SCiB:
https://www.toshiba.com/tic/power-elect ... le-battery

Toshiba catalogue looks like it only takes 15 minutes to charge the cell from 0 to 100 %.

The "Step-down charging" image which might be from Honda EV-neo manual, not sure, says 0 to 100 % in 30 minutes.
That is using the rapid charger which is huge but looks like it will fit on the back.
The scooter battery only have a range of 34 km but maybe that is not so bad if only you have the rapid charger.
ev-neo.jpg
ev-neo.jpg (50.65 KiB) Viewed 554 times
061511-honda-ev-neo-16.jpg
061511-honda-ev-neo-16.jpg (113.32 KiB) Viewed 554 times

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flippy » Jul 30 2019 8:49am

rough estmate is a 1.2kWh battery, so for a 30 min fast charge you would only need a 2kW charger.
those are dime a dozen and you can get those from mean well or even aliexpress nameless brand for not much money.
i dont know why that charger is so stupidly huge. a 2kW charger is not much bigger then a shoebox.
still, a battery twice or triple the capacity in 18650 cells can easely fit that frame so you would not even need "fast" charging...

note there is no word on lifespan...
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

Hummina Shadeeba   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jul 30 2019 11:47am

flat tire wrote:
Jul 30 2019 2:07am
This is pretty hilarious honestly. Nobody has personally attacked you. Read the thread, and reread my message cuz it's actually polite.
in your polite words can you tell me what are my bad ideas that are half baked and easily refuted and what basic stuff Im unable to understand?
thats just your last message

Hummina Shadeeba   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jul 30 2019 11:48am

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Jul 30 2019 12:02am
flat tire wrote:
Jul 29 2019 4:22pm
Those LTO cells are threaded (male) so you could bolt together interconnects. Personally I like LTO but it's not there for my ebike use. Apparently the Honda Fit EV uses LTO too so you might be able to get a good deal salvage.
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Jul 29 2019 3:51pm
waaaaah
Nobody is attacking you personally, only your bad IDEAS and the absolutely ridiculous premise that someone with this much misunderstanding of basic stuff is trying to take $40k from the community to develop a motor. Stop posting half baked, easily refutable stuff if you don't like it.
refute what? what's half baked? what bad ideas? and the misunderstanding of basic stuff?
second time you come in a thread talking crap about me ...you gunna just roll out again when I ask for an explanation?
would like to know what youre talking about. at this point you just seem a massive troll without anything to back up your talk. and ive called you on it when you did it before and you didn't respond with an explanation for what youre talking about then either.

I wouldn't call it polite

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Sunder   100 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by Sunder » Jul 30 2019 6:44pm

flippy wrote:
Jul 30 2019 2:11am

you try walking to your local honda or mitsubishi dealship and try and buy a car with a LTO battery. good luck with that....
There are definitely grey import iMievs for sale here in Aus that had the LTO cells in them. None right now but I guess it doesn't matter. Even when you're wrong, you're right, and your choice of words show that you're incorrigible.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
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eHouse: 5.5kw On-grid solar with battery backup coming soon!

After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flippy » Jul 31 2019 4:27am

Sunder wrote:
Jul 30 2019 6:44pm
There are definitely grey import iMievs for sale here in Aus that had the LTO cells in them. None right now but I guess it doesn't matter. Even when you're wrong, you're right, and your choice of words show that you're incorrigible.
pretty sure those are not for sale at your local dealership and are not officially sold outside japan. even in japan there is only 1 dealership that sell them officially.

so my statement still stands: there is no consumer product for sale you can buy that has LTO batteries.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flat tire » Jul 31 2019 5:29am

flippy wrote:
Jul 31 2019 4:27am
even in japan there is only 1 dealership that sell them officially.

there is no consumer product for sale you can buy that has LTO batteries.
You just contradicted yourself. This thread is comedy gold.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flippy » Jul 31 2019 5:34am

flat tire wrote:
Jul 31 2019 5:29am
You just contradicted yourself. This thread is comedy gold.
then do what i asked: walk into a american dealership and try and buy a car with a LTO battery with full support and warranty from the dealership.

ps: i just checked: you can only buy a iMievs with LTO cells if you are a japanese company. so no, a consumer cannot officially buy them without resorting to grey import or secondhand sales. so my point still stands, unless you want to consider a rare and expensive ass watch a consumer product...
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Sunder   100 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by Sunder » Aug 01 2019 7:10pm

flat tire wrote:
Jul 31 2019 5:29am
flippy wrote:
Jul 31 2019 4:27am
even in japan there is only 1 dealership that sell them officially.

there is no consumer product for sale you can buy that has LTO batteries.
You just contradicted yourself. This thread is comedy gold.
Yeah. It is pretty much where I thought it would go. Flippy makes an erroneous statement, and makes all sorts of mental gymnastics to make it right. It was "any" at first, then excluded limited edition runs, then excludes other countries even though it is an international forum, them excludes second hand (But factory condition)...

Kinda why I wanted to stay outta this. Probably should have. Oh well. Done now.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
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eCar: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV... Waiting for warranty to expire
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After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flippy » Aug 02 2019 5:12am

Try walking out that dealship with a LTO car bought as a consumer. If you manage that i will pay for it.
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flat tire   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flat tire » Aug 02 2019 5:42am

flippy wrote:
Aug 02 2019 5:12am
Try walking out that dealship with a LTO car bought as a consumer. If you manage that i will pay for it.
Are you willing to sign a contract on that? If so I'll be 100% willing to fly to japan where I'll buy the car then sell it.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flippy » Aug 03 2019 1:26am

flat tire wrote:
Aug 02 2019 5:42am
Are you willing to sign a contract on that? If so I'll be 100% willing to fly to japan where I'll buy the car then sell it.
that is just thing thing, you cant buy it as a consumer. you need to be a japanese company. pretty sure you are not a japanse company wich was my point to begin with. no regular joe can just go into a store or dealership and buy a brand new LTO car with the full worldwide support you would get from a regular car.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flat tire » Aug 03 2019 2:55am

Hey I'll sign the contract if you will.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Charging battery faster

Post by flippy » Aug 03 2019 12:30pm

flat tire wrote:
Aug 03 2019 2:55am
Hey I'll sign the contract if you will.
You are not a japanese company so you cant buy it, dont be daft.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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