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Laudation batteries

Posted: Feb 07 2020 5:32pm
by batkinmok
Hi, has anyone experience with these? Are they any good? They claim to be using Panasonic or Samsung cells so the price is compelling. Im building an offroad bike, meaning they should be able to take some bouncing around.

Laudation battery

Thanks, Felix

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Feb 08 2020 8:31am
by john61ct
Get an explicit confirmation via PM linked to the pack you will order that inside the pack are X count of genuine new Grade A NCR-18650BD

or whatever you decide on, and that total capacity will test for Y amp hours at a 0.z discharge rate.

When it arrives, give it a capacity test using a CC load at that rate.

If it fails you have the option to return it, no matter what they say, as Not As Described and they have to pay return shipping.

If it passes, carefully unwrap and verify the cells are as claimed. If not, same as above.

eBay / PayPal will tend to back you up, but don't report them if they do the right thing voluntarily, just comm via PM.

I believe you have 60 days from receipt?

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 27 2020 2:48pm
by chas58
I took a chance and bought these - laudation 36V 10ah Li-ion Battery 18650 (10s3p) for $135 shipped
https://www.ebay.com/itm/laudation-36V- ... 2749.l2649

(they have changed this link to be either Samsun or Panasonic batteries since I bought it, so who knows what you will see with that link).

It is supposed to have Built-in Panasonic NCR18650BD batteries. Advertised as such, and confirmed by vendor.

Although the batteries are the right "color" they are unmarked, so I'm doubtful that is what they are. Certainly doesn't have the tel-tail black stripes at the ends of the cells.

I'm using this on a tiny controller (max 12 amps, probably 10 continuous), but the battery got hot after running hard for an hour - which doesn't sound right (although I had insulation around it as padding - I can't do that, so now it can breathe better). Its rated 15amp continuous. It did give me about 1hr 15min run time which is is what I expect.

The wiring is flimsy - not what I am used to at all. I did swap out the connectors to something more reliable (XT90). Cells are wrapped in cardboard - not really expecting more at this price point.
Its a nice size, nice and light (3.75lbs), and easily fits in a frame bag under my top tube.

Oddly, they sent me a charger even though it was not supposed to be included.

My Battery:
Image

As advertized on ebay:
Image
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Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 27 2020 3:35pm
by 999zip999
Sounds too good to be true.

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 27 2020 4:26pm
by chas58
True.

Although I have been using my snowjoe battery pack as a range extender. They are 10s2p and give me about 30 minutes at full throttle. (Samsung 30q batteries). That was only $120 shipped.

What else am I going to do with the batteries for my snowblower in the summer time? ;-)

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 27 2020 8:40pm
by Sunder
Another forum member bought one of these despite me warning him the specs were impossible even if they used genuine cells. He was disappointed with them, and estimated they were about half their advertised capacity.

Take it with a grain of salt though, as his testing methodologies leave quite a lot to be desired.

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 28 2020 8:22am
by chas58
Thanks Sundar. The specs of the NCR (or Samsung) cells are pretty well known – but these don’t visibly look like the NCR cells advertised. They do have the amp hours advertised. 1hr 15min at roughly 10 amps is about right (it wasn’t full throttle the whole time).
My concerns are:
- Build quality is a bit fragile – not unexpected at this price point
- Unmarked batteries inside
- Heat buildup under a moderate 10amp load for an hour is concerning
- Above does not bode well for long term durability.

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 28 2020 1:03pm
by eMark
- Heat buildup under a moderate 10amp load for an hour is concerning
My 10S3P with Samsung 30Q 141 cells isn't abused. Never draw more than a 5amp load at most and then no more than 1 minute at most. IMO, a 10amp load is NOT moderate with 30Q cells making up a 36V 10S3P (9 Ah) battery pack.

Samsung's 30Q cells in a 10S3P were never intended for enduring (not endearing :wink: ) a 10amp load for even a few minutes and certainly not for an hour (IMO).

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 28 2020 5:57pm
by Hillhater
eMark wrote:
Jul 28 2020 1:03pm

Samsung's 30Q cells in a 10S3P were never intended for enduring (not endearing :wink: ) a 10amp load for even a few minutes and certainly not for an hour (IMO).
Any pack that cannot sustain a 1C continuous discharge without heat build up, it is not suitable to be used for Traction applications .

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 28 2020 6:11pm
by eMark
by docware » May 15 2020 8:42am ... Re: Li-ion cells cycle ageing

Cells warming in the closed battery pack will be probably too high even for 5 A discharge continuous with significant temperature inhomogeneity of the cells. Without suitable thermal management of the pack we can expect faster degradation of the cells.

Samsung 30Q 2A v 5A.jpg (51.64 KiB) Viewed 962 times
<img src="download/file.php?id=273389" alt="Samsung 30Q 2A v 5A.jpg"/>
by mighty82 » Jun 24 2020 5:39pm
Vtc6 seems like one of the very best cell to consider for high amp applications.
Samsung 30Q 10S3P at $4.99 ea = $150 ... https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-30 ... a-battery/
Sony | Murata VTC6 10S3P at $5.25 ea = $158 ... https://www.imrbatteries.com/sony-murat ... a-battery/

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 28 2020 6:54pm
by goatman
heres okashiras test of 30q at 7amp discharge to 3.0v cycled 700x

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=68556&hilit=30q+ba ... 5#p1159167

mooch did a comparison test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 28 2020 7:02pm
by 999zip999
Get a quality cell. If the guy selling a quality cell he's proud of it and he'll tell you about it if not he'll say Tesla like or some other gabiley gouu.

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 29 2020 3:16pm
by chas58
eMark wrote:
Jul 28 2020 1:03pm
- Heat buildup under a moderate 10amp load for an hour is concerning
My 10S3P with Samsung 30Q 141 cells isn't abused. Never draw more than a 5amp load at most and then no more than 1 minute at most. IMO, a 10amp load is NOT moderate with 30Q cells making up a 36V 10S3P (9 Ah) battery pack.

Samsung's 30Q cells in a 10S3P were never intended for enduring (not endearing :wink: ) a 10amp load for even a few minutes and certainly not for an hour (IMO).

Not sure I understand this. A single cell is good for 15 amps continuous, and has no problems with 20amps peak. 3s should be good for 45amps easy. 10 amps isn't an issue. I have 30Q in a 10s2p pack, and heat isn't a problem

Back to Laudation, Panasonic NCR18650BD is a 10 amp battery - 3p should be able to do 30 amps, and not have an issue with 10amps. Makes me wonder.
From Laudation's site:
Rated discharge current (a): 15а
Instantaneous maximum discharge current (a): 30A
Maximum Continuous Discharge Current (A): 15a
I'll agree with those parameters, but shouldn't be getting hot at 10amps.

Image

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 30 2020 12:37pm
by eMark
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 28 2020 5:57pm
Any pack that cannot sustain a 1C continuous discharge without heat build up, it is not suitable to be used for Traction applications .
My conservative riding is to hopefully get at least 700 charge/discharge cycles over 5 years with my Samsung 30Q 10S3P DIY buiild. Balance charging at 0.5C (1.5A) charged to 41v and discharged no lower than 35v (down to 2 bars on readout).

My conservative e-triking (retired in no hurry) is mostly on level paved bike trails over abandoned railroads. Average drain of 4.5-4.8amps at 8mph. Varies from 5.5 amps to as low as 2.8 amps depending on the grade and whether or not pedal assist. That's 75% of my e-triking. Then there are those other extreme times going up a steep paved trail or street bike lane at full throttle in 5th pulling all the amps the controller can deliver (19amps), but that's usually no longer than 15 to 30 sec.

When I'm in 4th or 5th going 10-12mph the 750w rated front drive BLDC varies from 6-9 amps on relatively level paved bike trail or street bike lane. Have not and never will pull 10-12 amps continuously from 41v to 35v with my Samsung 30Q 10S3P pack. Consider that drastically reduces usable charge/discharge cycles. I balance charge at 0.5C (1.5amps). Difference between the ten 3P groups ranges from 7-12mv at 41v after balance charging (that's good enuf).
chas58 wrote:
Jul 29 2020 3:16pm
... controller (max 12 amps, probably 10 continuous), but the battery got hot after running hard for an hour - which doesn't sound right.
Those cells in your Laudation battery aren't actually what the supplier claims are Panasonic NCR18650BD. They may be rated the same, but possibly another cell of questionable quality. Twenty of the Panasonic NCR18650BD cells from IMR are $110 (plus shipping) and a Vruzend V2.1 kit is $42. A nice fun learning experience if time permits. I don't have a BMS in my 30Q 10S3P DIY battery build.

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 30 2020 5:14pm
by john61ct

chas58 wrote:Not sure I understand this.
No you don't

> A single cell is good for 15 amps continuous, and has no problems with 20amps peak. 3s should be good for 45amps easy

in series only voltage increases, capacity in oth senses remains the same.

It is the 2P that increases Ah capacity, thus ctting the C-rate in half or a given current draw.

Are you trusting the maker's specs to be accurate?

Are they really 30Qs?

Have you easured how much capacity they've lost, actual compared to their rating?

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Jul 31 2020 7:45am
by eMark
chas58 wrote:
Jul 29 2020 3:16pm
From Laudation's site:
Rated discharge current (a): 15а
Instantaneous maximum discharge current (a): 30A
Maximum Continuous Discharge Current (A): 15a
I'll agree with those parameters, but shouldn't be getting hot at 10amps.
If the price seems to good to be true then it's probably true that those cells aren't true NCR18650BD cells. The saying, "You get what you pay" applies with those knockoff Panasonic NCR18650BD cells. The proof is that they shouldn't be getting hot pulling 10amps continuously for one hour (warm, but not hot).

Thanks to your post you've hopefully saved others from buying a Laudation battery pack. The pack you have might serve me ok with my conservative amp draw, but I would still rather buy through Amazon. If there's a problem my chances of getting the problem resolved is far better (at least return for a refund or another if defective).

Next time (if possible) buy from Amazon as they are good about refunding if product is defective. Bought a 10S5P 10A through Amazon for $236 via this distributor ... http://www.unitpackpower.com/goods/show-163.html ... besides i don't have any reason to be pulling 10amps continuously for an hour, so for my frugal use it's good enough rather than spending $450 buying from a local bike store for basically same battery that still uses Chinese cells..

There's just one Amazon review (July 7, 2020) on this 10S 10AH unitpackpower battery, but it was good enuf for me ...

"I'm not going to lie. Me and GZ BATTERY (3rd party Amazon supplier) got off on the wrong foot. But they went above and beyond to make me a very satisfied customer. If you have any questions contact them they will help to make your ebike battery perfect for what you need."

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Aug 01 2020 12:12pm
by eMark
chas58 wrote:
Jul 29 2020 3:16pm
Back to Laudation, Panasonic NCR18650BD is a 10 amp battery - 3p should be able to do 30 amps, and not have an issue with 10amps.
Don't you mean 30Ah ? That ebay Laudation site says in prominent underlined red lettering that your pack has either of these two cells (are you positive they are PanBD cells) ...

Built-in Panasonic NCR18650BD or Samsung INR 18650-33G

NCR18650BD is rated at: Max. continuous discharge current 10A
Samsung 33G is rated at: Max. continuous discharge current 6.5A
chas58 wrote:
Jul 27 2020 2:48pm
Cells that are wrapped in cardboard - not really expecting more at this price point.
Laudation Chinese packs (IMO) use Chinese cells, so IF NCR18650BD they may be seconds of questionable quality being there is no name brand labeling or identifying Panasonic code on the cells. Chinese packs with Chinese cells often use a thicker cardboard-like wrap as a cushion between cells. Doubt they are PanBD or Sam33G, but may have similar cell rating spec (still false advertising).

The reason i said "abuse" is you were pulling 10A continuously for one hour from a pack that you knew at most only had a max continuous discharge current (at best) of 10A. Did you even check the pack voltage after your one hour ride? Even a real PanBD pack would've gotten pretty warm after one hour (especially if seconds of questionable quality). Voltage from 35v to 32v goes by in no time at max discharge current. I'm surprised you were even able to ride for one hour pulling 10 amps continuously from that 10S pack that's only 3P.

I'd never pull 10 amps continuously (4.1v to 3.5v) from a 10S 5P pack having Chinese cells rated at max cont. discharge current of only 10A even if the controller only pulled 10 amps. Well, maybe if it was pouring cats and dogs and no place to shelter until back home :wink:

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Aug 01 2020 4:22pm
by john61ct
Remember even with genuine new top notch cells

the Ah capacity IRL conditions may only be 70-80% of what the factory rating says.

Therefore at a theoretical 1C rate, the pack cannot last for an hour,

after 40min or so you should be stopping if you want any kind of longevity.

Re: Laudation batteries

Posted: Aug 01 2020 7:36pm
by eMark
john61ct wrote:
Aug 01 2020 4:22pm
Remember even with genuine new top notch cells

the Ah capacity IRL conditions may only be 70-80% of what the factory rating says.

Therefore at a theoretical 1C rate, the pack cannot last for an hour,

after 40min or so you should be stopping if you want any kind of longevity.
Hoping you would clarify :thumb: as i was also wondering how he was able to ride for an hour.

So, let's assume the Laudation 10s3p cells are rated at 10amps maximum continuous discharge and the controller is pulling 10amps continuously (1C), with the pack being discharged to as low as 30 volts (or lower after his hour ride). Even if they were new Panasonic NCR18650BD cells wouldn't they have warmed after 40 minutes and for sure hot after an hour ? That's one mean 10s3p PanBD battery pack if it can withstand an hour discharge pulling 10amps continuously. For $135 he got a good deal :D