Im going RC LiPo - General advice / BMS / Charger (also Build Thread now)

Wummi

10 mW
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
31
Location
Vienna, Austria
Current setup:
48V 20Ah LiFePo
18 FET Lyen
Chinesium 3kw DD Hub

The Batteries are getting old, and never delivered the current i want

Idea: Replace em with RC Lipos, 14s3p ( https://hobbyking.com/de_de/turnigy-heavy-duty-5000mah-7s-60c-lipo-pack-w-xt90.html )
.) use existing LifePo Charger Bulk (58,4V) + BMS (BMS16T?)
.) or get 14S capable balancing charger - seems to be a rare occurrence sadly.

I'm going to need a 7S charger anyway, to test the packs and discharge them for storage (suggestions? there are many around)

As for now i'm thinking: *smart/good* BMS that can handle 14S(suggestions?), and get a 7S RC charger for maintenance.
Good idea?

thanks!
 
What peak C-rates have you been shooting for?

58.4V will work for LI, but getting stressfully close to the top 4.2Vpc as opposed to longevity enhancing 4.05.

If you could set a cutoff to charger input at ~57V, CC-only no holding Absorb / CV that would be better.

I would figure out how to wire up 7S sub-packs with Protective-only BMS, so you could do your balancing / maintenance from widely available RC chargers.

A single 14S BMS that only got plugged in after the two halves are serial'd would work too.

Top RC charger brands:
Graupner, FMA/Revolectrix (CellPro), Hitec , iCharger (Junsi), ISDT, Hyperion

rcgroups a great forum for narrowing things down, also top LiPo packs, value vs performance, great objective test results
 
john61ct said:
What peak C-rates have you been shooting for?

i think about 100A, in the current 3P config that would be 7C.

For charging i'm in no hurry, current charger can do 7A.

john61ct said:
58.4V will work for LI, but getting stressfully close to the top 4.2Vpc as opposed to longevity enhancing 4.05.

If you could set a cutoff to charger input at ~57V, CC-only no holding Absorb / CV that would be better.
I'll probalby lower the charger voltage a bit

john61ct said:
I would figure out how to wire up 7S sub-packs with Protective-only BMS, so you could do your balancing / maintenance from widely available RC chargers.

A single 14S BMS that only got plugged in after the two halves are serial'd would work too.

thats what i think about

john61ct said:
Top RC charger brands:
Graupner, FMA/Revolectrix (CellPro), Hitec , iCharger (Junsi), ISDT, Hyperion

rcgroups a great forum for narrowing things down, also top LiPo packs, value vs performance, great objective test results

thanks
 
You will need a very good fire insurance and this will propably cost much more in the end as the cheap cells.

If just 1 large LiPo pack out of 1000 burns down a house it is a bad idea from the economic point.
 
Cephalotus said:
You will need a very good fire insurance and this will propably cost much more in the end as the cheap cells.

If just 1 large LiPo pack out of 1000 burns down a house it is a bad idea from the economic point.

I'll put it in a lipo safe. I know many people are afraid of rc lipo. I belive risk is greatly minimised when the pack is monitored closely. Thats why I'm asking for BMS/Charger recommendations
 
Well re the fire,, I kept my dangerous lipo's in an ammo can in my fireplace, then my "safe" bms equipped 18650 pack burned the garage down, leading to 9 months in a rental while the house got made livable again.

So I'm definitely preaching keep this stuff outside whatever you have,

Never had a problem yet with a lipo, just wear out faster, and puff in two years. I did do some charging with RC chargers at first, then went to a turned down lifepo4 charger for 14s. I set it for 4.15v per cell, then tried not to whack the packs very hard with deep discharges or extra high rates of discharge. The result was I only needed to balance the pack about 4 times a year.

With the conservative charging and discharging routine, I could give a shit about balancing to .01v. I just needed one cell to be charging to 4.2v, another to 4.1v, and so on to be safe from overcharge. Same on discharge, if I stopped at 50 to 51v, I was safe from overdischarging that low cell. I also would slow down the bike, and the discharge rate by the time I was seeing 52v. (resting)

Buy the highest c rate you can afford, for a 100 amps vehicle. 20c will work, but you really need better for the packs to perform with acceptable sag. A 20c pack will struggle starting at about 5c. Get the 40c stuff at least.
 
If you are competent enough to wire in a BMS I would say you are competent enough to build with recycled EV lipos. I been doing this for a little while and I love it. I have approx 200$ in cells in my bike and 20 hours of labor.

I personally think the EV lipo is much higher quality and I buy them recycled for about 150 / Kwh... chop em up and resuse. lasted longer then any HK lio I ever had. Plus they dont mind a deep discharge and they are safer sometimes cause they can be punctured and not burn as easy as a HK lipo ( that will sparkburnignitewithfervor if abused enough) and are made with high discharge and charge rates in mind.

I run at 6.6C and drop about 1v / 1000w output for the pack of LG (Chevy Volt chopped up) cells from GreenTec Auto.

When I ran the Hobby Lipo on my BBSO2 @ 12s ( 15Ah, high end 65C+, tiny 25A load) in a (6) pack of 6s 5000mAh flight quality lipo ) they gave good power but never really gave me as many watt hours as I really thought I was gonna get.


Yeah plus even a 500mAh 1s lipo of any quality is like a firecracker if punctured. Smokey. Still, dont fear the lipo, I got 8 good ones in the garage for the last few years and just treat them like they are very important. I have plowed lipos into the ground really f'n hard and even bent whole 6s 5000mAh packs.. dug ditches into the ground upon er uhm.. "landing" my Rc toys... no fire. Its just all the horror stories of people in the rc hobbies but you know, look at that demographic lol.

I have a pair of regular Turnigy Blues and I wore them out but I like them. They lasted a long time. 6s, 4000mah, over 4 years by now, and I bought them used. I even crashed them a few times but not hard or catastrophic... They eventually slightly puffed and wore out, IR went up.
 
DogDipstick said:
If you are competent enough to wire in a BMS I would say you are competent enough to build with recycled EV lipos. I been doing this for a little while and I love it. I have approx 200$ in cells in my bike and 20 hours of labor.

That sounds interesting - you don't happen to know where i could get such cells in europe?
 
Wummi said:
I'll put it in a lipo safe. I know many people are afraid of rc lipo. I belive risk is greatly minimised when the pack is monitored closely. Thats why I'm asking for BMS/Charger recommendations

Lipo safe?

somthing like that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQldY7fKn5o

Does not even work for small battery packs.

You wanted advice. This is mine. You are free to ignore it.
 
Cephalotus said:
Wummi said:
I'll put it in a lipo safe. I know many people are afraid of rc lipo. I belive risk is greatly minimised when the pack is monitored closely. Thats why I'm asking for BMS/Charger recommendations

Lipo safe?

somthing like that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQldY7fKn5o

Does not even work for small battery packs.

You wanted advice. This is mine. You are free to ignore it.
i was thinking more along the lines of this https://youtu.be/Rv_3vwSZmzA?t=51

thanks for your concerns, but cell monitoring, lipo box, and charging far from flammable materials should really be enough.

Every one of us carries a lipo pack in their pocket next to their balls, relying on BMS only.
 
Wummi said:

That sounds interesting - you don't happen to know where i could get such cells in europe?






Oh geeze you are the 50th person to ask me this lol. Not much recycled EV in Eu? Eh? Darnit. I seriously have friends who have been looking for a year. In Europe,. I always try to endorse them b/c I like recycling.

Here try these; https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=102908 or something similar. There will be EV in junkyards in the years to come for sure.

john61ct said:
58.4V will work for LI, but getting stressfully close to the top 4.2Vpc as opposed to longevity enhancing 4.05.
Over 1/3 of my capacity is above 4v. If i charged my 15Ah battery to 4.05v I would have a 10Ah battery. I bulk charge no bms to 4.15v ( Max charge v on datasheet) with a 8A current and a taper of 0.33A. Zero deviation when data logged every other month. Zero deviation in 20 cells.


Different cells, different results. 33% of my fuel is above 4v. Longevity? Lol. My cells were blind purchased used, written off, and knowingly 5-6 years old, and have provided me 2 years since charging every time to 101%. Lol... longevity. This is what EV lipo gives you compared to HK lipo, where you have to undercharge and not overdisharge the capacity.

The only thing I dont like about my cells is the Internal Resistance DOUBLES when it is cold ( <40*). From a whopping ~1.2mOh / cell.. to a whopping ~2.2,...2.4mOh ? Oh so turrible. At least until the core heats up a little.
 
Wummi said:
i was thinking more along the lines of this https://youtu.be/Rv_3vwSZmzA?t=51

Useless, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR-Rw0PLgpA

Every one of us carries a lipo pack in their pocket next to their balls, relying on BMS only.

No, this is not a LiPo pack, it is a single cell with voltage and temperature monitoring for that single cell. No cables, no glue, no soldering, no different potentials, no heavy weight plus vibrations. No thermal runaway cascades, no hotspots, no parallel cells putting hundreds of amps into a short.

Very, very, very different situation

And if it burns you have maybe 10Wh to burn, not 1000Wh. This is a very significant difference.

Let one candle burn. Than put 100 candles together and let those burn. BIG difference.
 
Cephalotus said:
Useless, too:

Here is some high Wh high Energy densit High Power density Evlipo burn burn burning baby. 33Ah 3.8v.... 125Wh? Like a 6s 5000mAh Wh equivalence. About 1/10 of my packs Wh... Oh wait... Nevermind.

The only pain inthe ass is fitting them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz37WycW-7E
 
That's my point.

1. Don't use cheap cells, especially do not use cheap cells that are optimized for anything but safety.
2. If you build a battery pack build it as safe as possible.
3. Do not abuse it
4. If it catches fire you better have it in a place where fire and smoke are contained. This is quite difficult when you have 6kg of cheap Hongkong LiPoly burning.
 
Cephalotus said:
Useless, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR-Rw0PLgpA

It worked well when used correctly with the rated Wh.

Cephalotus said:
No, this is not a LiPo pack, it is a single cell with voltage and temperature monitoring for that single cell. No cables, no glue, no soldering, no different potentials, no heavy weight plus vibrations. No thermal runaway cascades, no hotspots, no parallel cells putting hundreds of amps into a short.

Very, very, very different situation

And if it burns you have maybe 10Wh to burn, not 1000Wh. This is a very significant difference.

Of course this has glue, soldering, vibrations etc, it's a mobile device. Phones also get bent. phones occasionally also burst into flames. Of course there's less energy. But my balls are also way more sensitive than my garden floor.

I get it, LiPos are more dangerous than other chemistries. I'm just saying they can be safe enough, if handled correctly.

I'm looking for BMS suggestions, to make it as safe as lipos can be. If your only input is "don't use lipos" than thanks, your concerns are noted.
 
Hi, I've been using LiPoly bricks on low-power Ebikes for about 6 years and have no "fire" concerns mainly because of the of the low C rates (10C to 20C)., but they are very time consuming.
But first, the reason I like the stuff is I stocked up on the big bricks of Multistar when Hobbyking had the 6S/10 Ah bricks on sale for $75 ea and my 4) 12S/10 Ah packs cost me $150 ea! Not only that, they are about a 1/3rd. smaller and lighter than any other chemistry.
Now, the Multistar is no longer avail. and I'm not sure what the biggest brick one can get in Turnigy , but using big bricks is the key.
Since a BMS is not really practical w/ LiPoly, the best way to charge a pack, is to forget the "toy" RC chargers altogether and bulk charge using a Mean Well and ck'ing and balancing w/ Battery Medics. For one thing, this eliminates the need to "break the string"", which is what you would have to do w/ 14S.
Any time you are not ready to head out the door, the bricks are to be at "storage charge" (3.90 V or below) and are "top charged" right before one is ready to ride. When they are not new, there really is no reason reason to discharge and "testing" (IR) and "monitoring" the cells is not necessary, as watching the Battery Medics will tell you if you have a cell that is getting weak.
To do this without a "rat's nest" of wires, too many Battery Medics and too much time, it's important to stay at 2S/1P or 2S/2P packs, hence the need for big bricks. With 10.000 mAh bricks, 2S/2P would be 20,000 mAh's! If the biggest bricks I could get were 5000 mAh, I would build 2) packs of 2S/2P(10,000 mAh's) and manually disconnect one when discharged and plug in the other
14S can be a problem in the sense of what's available. I have some Zippy Compacts that are 7S, but they are not avail. over 4000 mAh. Sometimes I make my 14S packs by going 3S/2P or 1P (6S + 6S + +2S) , but that means 3) Battery Medics per string.
I'm not going to go in to more details here because usually when folks learn of what it takes for the "care and feeding" of LiPoly, they lose interest.
If you are still interested, you can search my posts using search-words like Multistar, Mean Well, Battery Medic, Pack, bulk, etc. Or let me know and I will.

BTW, top charge on a 14S LiPoly pack is 59.3 Volts, so the charger you have now would be too low when you need the extra bit of range.
 
Top charge voltage - which is stressful, riskier, not great for longevity - is 58.8

Anything above 57V should get to Full just fine, especially if holding CV / Absorb as amps trail down.
 
motomech said:
Multistar
Turnigy
To do this without a "rat's nest" of wires,
some Zippy

BTW, top charge on a 14S LiPoly pack is 59.3 Volts, so the charger you have now would be too low when you need the extra bit of range.

Never Ever

charge a lipo 14s past 58.8v... period. Dont go over 4.2v it is pointless.



Zippy and Multistart are the worst.

Just get a cheap configurable bluetoof BMS.
 
DogDipstick said:
motomech said:
Multistar
Turnigy
To do this without a "rat's nest" of wires,
some Zippy

BTW, top charge on a 14S LiPoly pack is 59.3 Volts, so the charger you have now would be too low when you need the extra bit of range.

Never Ever

charge a lipo 14s past 58.8v... period. Dont go over 4.2v it is pointless.



Zippy and Multistart are the worst.

Just get a cheap configurable bluetoof BMS.

Never Ever

charge a lipo 14s past 58.8v... period. Dont go over 4.2v it is pointless.
On paper, 58.8V is 4.20/cell, but even going to 59.3, as soon as the a (bulk) charger is disconnected, the cells will fall below 4.20V.
Besides, if you read my post rather than jumping up and yelling "fire" you will see I did not recommend charging to 59.3V.

I stated: "BTW, top charge on a 14S LiPoly pack is 59.3 Volts, so the charger you have now would be too low when you need the extra bit of range."

The key words being "...bit of range".
Some folks, perhaps suffering range anxiety for a longer trip might want as much capacity as possible
The general thought being going from 4.1V up to 4.2V reduces service life (cycles), so why not point that out?
I have pointed out in many past posts that due to it's smaller form factor, it's not difficult to carry more capacity of LiPoly than other chemistries and the best way to extend it's service life, would be to not use it to it's full capacity. Strict adherence to the 80% depth of discharge rule, or better yet, limiting top charge values to some something more like a 70% discharge range would be the way to go.
Zippy and Multistart are the worst.

Multistar has NOT even been available for over a year, so why bother to pass judgement on it?
But for the record, Multistar, for those w/ low C-rate requirements, the regular discounts Hobbyking offered made it an out-standing value performer. and the BIG bricks were a Godsend to ebikes. Many here miss the Multistar.
Perhaps you might want to review the very sound work of of icecube57, who conducted discharge tests on many brands and pointed out that Multristar would be a good choice for those who could accept it's low C-rate limitations.
Most here, with brand experience would rate the standard Turnigy over Zippy, but the difference is not great and the Zippy Compacts have shown to be a good value. the equivalant Zippy on sale (a rare occurrence these days), could be a good alternative to Turnigy
It is very much a matter of opinion and throwing out a "carved in stone" proclamation without offering any evidence doesn't really doesn't help anyone make a choice.

Just get a cheap configurable bluetoof BMS.

There is little evidence that a "cheap" BMS will function very long w/out failing on a high-powered LiPoly (RC type) system. Perhaps I missed some examples, so maybe you could point out some?
 
motomech said:
Just get a cheap configurable bluetoof BMS.

There is little evidence that a "cheap" BMS will function very long w/out failing on a high-powered LiPoly (RC type) system. Perhaps I missed some examples, so maybe you could point out some?
Ok, do what you want. I would never charge lipo over 4.2v. Personally.
I used the LTT BLuetooth and its is still working with HK and EV lipos. ( with the rats nest ) . But what sit matter, the Hkj lipos wont last that long. I see HK lipos die in 80 cycles. The BMS has been said to be designed correctly by experts here ion the Sphere.

I see Multis used (available) ( so therefore I pass judgment to my peers who consider buying) and they are fails. I seen the Zippy fail too. Fails. Turnigy blues >>>>>>> Zippy from the circles i have experience with.

I look at charging a little different than you.

The general thought being going from 4.1V up to 4.2V reduces service life (cycles), so why not point that out?

Well, I have experience different results in the SOC mapping of certain HK and EV cells.. vs how long they lasted. No "HK" lipo lasts, I guess I am a 'BIG-C" kind of guy. I also think the big EV cells are 10000% better, ( the "godsend" you speak of.. availible now, as opposed to the history you have and experience of not being able to buy them yesteryear, but the HK lipo is expensively available) .... safer, easier than a "HK lipo"... something that some debate. Lol.

I use my cells every day if I can and fully CC/CV charge 20 at a time with no BMS but Datalog with regularity and I have 0% degradation ) balance issues ( perfect .0001mv differences on log after ~2 yrs... No BMS... ) , in 2000mile 2year and 20-100A ... when even my good Hobby lipos dont do that.. the ones that cost 189$ for 120Wh... currents. My opinion is if you use them every day do not worry about undercharging to 4.1v they will last as long as they are going to last. Get the mAh. Every day use for me on a 6+ year old cheap cell and zero degradation at my current.

i quickly realized that the Hobby lipo ( 8x 6s 5000mAh, for 20Ah @ 44v.. ) ) didnt gog ood with the ebike and wasnt the best environment for them,,,... but they do work and have power capability.

Am quite egotistical when it comes to my recycling.. lol.. Love to recycle.
 
For my gokart I ran 12x 5ah 4s turnigy packs in parallel and series to make 12s. I setup the charger with 12x xt90 connectors and 12x 4s jxt connectos so I could charge them all at once on balance mode. Then put them in storage mod each time. I also ran the lipo alarms and set my kelly controller to stop once the volts got below 3.8v per cell. I only ran them 4 times before deciding that charging and discharging was too much of a pain the arse. Selling them if you are interested for only 30$ per pack.
00j0j_dYDgpCiH7fi_600x450.jpg
 
That is the main take-away I hoped to convey in my post, KISAP (Keep IT Simple As Possible).
You might want to fill out your profile so anyone interested knows where you are at.
You can also put them in the Classified Section and place a link here.
 
motomech said:
On paper, 58.8V is 4.20/cell, but even going to 59.3, as soon as the a (bulk) charger is disconnected, the cells will fall below 4.20V.
Going over spec on charging is flat out dangerous, stupidly risky.

And even going from 4.15V no-CV, to 4.2V until endAmps of 0.05C

will not add any noticeable range.

That 80% idea though is over the top, just silly, unless you know for sure the range will not be needed this trip. In which case 60% even better, centering your usage around the midpoint SoC can indeed triple lifespan or more.

> There is little evidence that a "cheap" BMS will function very long w/out failing on a high-powered LiPoly (RC type) system. Perhaps I missed some examples, so maybe you could point out some?

I agree BMS should not be trusted much, often causing pack failures rather than preventing them

but a LiPo system being "high powered" has nothing to do with the reliability of a BMS.
 
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