Creative Cooling Ideas?

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by amberwolf » May 25 2020 1:40pm

A fan just moves air around, so if the air you're moving is warmer than the object you're cooling, it's going to heat up the object, not cool it off.

A fan works to cool *you* off because it evaporates water from your skin, which takes heat with it.

So to make an object cooler with a fan, you'd have to keep the object wet, which is probably not a good idea with your battery. ;)


You would need to make or use something that actually removes heat from the battery, without adding humidity/moisture to it. You could create an insulated box around it, and get a small room / window air conditioner, and route the airflow of the cooling-side of the A/C unit thru the insulated box. This would remove the heat from the battery and place it (and the extra waste heat from teh cooling process) in the room itself, making you hotter (perhaps by up to several degrees or more).

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by Smoke » May 25 2020 1:56pm

I think I have found a source of paraffin wax to use for phase change cooling.

I'm going to try it out.

I can't say who it is until I ask him if he would like to sell wax a few pounds at a time. He's being very kind helping me out but may want to focus on bigger markets than homebrew ebike battery packs.
Don't let me out.

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by miro13car » May 25 2020 3:16pm

amberwolf,
great idea about to direct cool air from one of the registeres/vents to box surrounding my battery.
but they managers shut AC down last summer.
sides of my battery box are alu and for sure they get cooled a bit by fan blowing.
Eplus, Bionx

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by amberwolf » May 25 2020 7:26pm

miro13car wrote:
May 25 2020 3:16pm
amberwolf,
great idea about to direct cool air from one of the registeres/vents to box surrounding my battery.
but they managers shut AC down last summer.
I did not have any ideas about that, or say anything about that.

I said:
You could create an insulated box around it, and get a small room / window air conditioner, and route the airflow of the cooling-side of the A/C unit thru the insulated box.
which has nothing to do with the existing A/C registers, vents, or shutdown.

sides of my battery box are alu and for sure they get cooled a bit by fan blowing.
If they are cooled by the fan blowing then that means they were hotter than the ambient air to start with.

If the air is hotter than the object, the fan cannot cool it, and will instead heat it.

You imply by your original statement:
They disabled /management/ AC cooling .
and temp. gets to 24C at the end of my working day.
I tried putting cooling pads over my battery , blowing fan, etc.
any other ideas?
that the battery is not being cooled by those things (if you need other ideas, the ones you've tried must not be working).

This implies that the air is hotter than the battery.

If the air is hotter than the battery, it cannot cool the battery even with incredibly powerful fans blowing on it (the air friction would actually make the problem worse).

You must cool the air itself before the air can cool the battery.


What I would recommend is that you directly measure the temperature of the battery core, and post that here.

Directly measure the temperature of the surface of the battery, and post that here.

Direclty meausre the temperature of the air, and post that here.

Then we can see if there is something you can do with those temperature differences to create a cooling effect without some major modification of the battery, or adding a cooling system to the room.

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by goatman » May 25 2020 10:42pm

miro13car wrote:
May 25 2020 8:31am
good subject and right on time.
it is getting warmer and warmer weather.
our batteries hate heat.
keeping our packs in cool environment while not riding .
I have a problem at my work place.
They disabled /management/ AC cooling .
and temp. gets to 24C at the end of my working day.
I tried putting cooling pads over my battery , blowing fan, etc.
any other ideas?
whats wrong with 24c? isn't that ideal?

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by DogDipstick » May 26 2020 11:59am

Unrelated, totally unrelated but I just wanted to say I friggin luv Oil cooling. I got about 100mL of the atf stuff in my hub and that, with the Grin thermal pid rollback, is actively giving me the best power my hub ever gave.

Sometimes giving a good 40-50A for miles on a 20A hub motor that fried its halls when dry, but is limited lower, now, and giving good good power. Also completely fixed the overheating issues at Human peddle speeds that I would experience, at 3-5A, prior to the ATF.

IDK how you guys turn hub motors black, or even get enough current to heat your cells up that much. I guess the 10Kw+ territory.

My EV cells heat up a little but not much, they are big.
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83.1v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D Broke 10 horsies :twisted: (..about 80% healed..).. :? Anybody.. what equals √3 times the line to neutral voltage? Asking for a friend.. :| (gottenymoem4115thangs?Yall?) :confused: Fabricator @ BSECo. Inc.

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by goatman » May 26 2020 12:25pm

the ATF is that Dexron?? I think Chrysler ATF would be bad for bearings?

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by DogDipstick » May 26 2020 12:33pm

goatman wrote:
May 26 2020 12:25pm
the ATF is that Dexron?? I think Chrysler ATF would be bad for bearings?
Bearings have seals. They are sealed cartridge bearings ( and rather large ones, might I say). I sealed both the flange, and the races, of the hub, and drilled out a brake bolt hole. Anaerobic Loctite and not a drop leaked yet. Nothing pushing through the wire core either ( I think). They would have leaked from P-V a long time ago if they were letting oil through that seal on the faces of the bearings. Been some 300 Mi. + since, much cooler than before. Very cheap for my needs.

Car Quest Automatic Transmission Fluid " Multi Vehicle" part number CQ420

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/car ... /8130008-P

THIS was a typical pre-oil cooling ride with the temp cutoff at 200*C and you see I limit amps ( green trace, bottom) at the end.. but.. the temp keeps rising.... Most of the ride is not even set at full power, only 80A~.

Then once hot, even at pedal speeds, even with aps cut to 20A... it would still get hotter and hotter.

Some people have told me to fill it till it leaks out the axle hole. That much. Huh. Drag racers. lol.

OK Rg, sorry for the offshoot. Back to battery cooling.

Wanna calculate the entropy of water? Lol. Its there. Just put the whole battery into a calibrated tub of water ( distilled, please,) (1000mL?) and measure temperatures. Base and rise. Alot easier with water though. The entropy of water is very well known. Lol. In BTu. And calories. :)
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83.1v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D Broke 10 horsies :twisted: (..about 80% healed..).. :? Anybody.. what equals √3 times the line to neutral voltage? Asking for a friend.. :| (gottenymoem4115thangs?Yall?) :confused: Fabricator @ BSECo. Inc.

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by rg12 » May 26 2020 3:58pm

DogDipstick wrote:
May 26 2020 12:33pm
goatman wrote:
May 26 2020 12:25pm
the ATF is that Dexron?? I think Chrysler ATF would be bad for bearings?
Bearings have seals. They are sealed cartridge bearings ( and rather large ones, might I say). I sealed both the flange, and the races, of the hub, and drilled out a brake bolt hole. Anaerobic Loctite and not a drop leaked yet. Nothing pushing through the wire core either ( I think). They would have leaked from P-V a long time ago if they were letting oil through that seal on the faces of the bearings. Been some 300 Mi. + since, much cooler than before. Very cheap for my needs.

Car Quest Automatic Transmission Fluid " Multi Vehicle" part number CQ420

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/car ... /8130008-P

THIS was a typical pre-oil cooling ride with the temp cutoff at 200*C and you see I limit amps ( green trace, bottom) at the end.. but.. the temp keeps rising.... Most of the ride is not even set at full power, only 80A~.

Then once hot, even at pedal speeds, even with aps cut to 20A... it would still get hotter and hotter.

Some people have told me to fill it till it leaks out the axle hole. That much. Huh. Drag racers. lol.

OK Rg, sorry for the offshoot. Back to battery cooling.

Wanna calculate the entropy of water? Lol. Its there. Just put the whole battery into a calibrated tub of water ( distilled, please,) (1000mL?) and measure temperatures. Base and rise. Alot easier with water though. The entropy of water is very well known. Lol. In BTu. And calories. :)
For me to forgive you, I would demand to know how you produce these awesome charts :lol:
Unrelated indeed but super interesting!

About power, yeah we all cross the 10kw here in our unique riding group we have in Israel.
Some bitch about being limited to "only" 150A with their batteries since their ASI controller can go 400A.
So yeah, they cook stuff easy with our hot ass weather.
Where are the days we used to brag about this lame 9C motor with holes in it and a 45A controller...

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by serious_sam » May 27 2020 6:13am

DogDipstick wrote:
May 26 2020 12:33pm
THIS was a typical pre-oil cooling ride with the temp cutoff at 200*C
I would say that there's a slight problem with your temperature channel. Normally you wouldn't see such sharp dips in the temperature data. That's a near instantaneous 50°C drop. The stator normally holds a steady temperature profile due to the thermal mass. It can go up relatively fast with power, but much slower on the way down (depending on cooling obviously). Never sharp drops like you have in your logs. That could be caused by the temp sensor not being adequately embedded in or attached to the coil. If that's the case, then it's likely that the actual temperatures are somewhat higher than your data shows. Oil cooling will compound the problem.
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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by serious_sam » May 27 2020 6:32am

DogDipstick wrote:
May 26 2020 12:33pm
I sealed both the flange, and the races, of the hub, and drilled out a brake bolt hole. Anaerobic Loctite and not a drop leaked yet. Nothing pushing through the wire core either ( I think). They would have leaked from P-V a long time ago if they were letting oil through that seal on the faces of the bearings.
Forgot to ask, how are you venting the hub in order to maintain ambient pressure internally ?

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by amberwolf » May 27 2020 2:01pm

serious_sam wrote:
May 27 2020 6:13am

I would say that there's a slight problem with your temperature channel. Normally you wouldn't see such sharp dips in the temperature data. That's a near instantaneous 50°C drop.
If you look at both curves (power and temp) you'll see the same dips at the same time, and there are matching plateaus in the voltage data.

There are also matching smoother dips in the speed data.

So something may be amiss with the logging or data processing operation itself, that affects at least those channels of data simultaneously.

If instead those all represent no-throttle-demand sections of the ride, either coasting or stopping, then there may be something in the temperature monitoring wiring that is affected by induced current flow from the motor phase wiring, or some other issue like a ground loop or other grounding problem.

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by DogDipstick » May 27 2020 3:32pm

serious_sam wrote:
May 27 2020 6:13am
DogDipstick wrote:
May 26 2020 12:33pm
I would say that there's a slight problem with your temperature channel. Normally you wouldn't see such sharp dips in the temperature data.

Forgot to ask, how are you venting the hub in order to maintain ambient pressure internally ?

I think it is the speed of the sensor. You do not see alot. The screenshot is scaled. To a large graduation.

Logrithmically you can zoom in and the traces flatten and you see the peaks more and less transitioning instead of abrupt spikes to higher/lower valleys and plateaus. Time scale.

Also, The CA analogger software tries to fit many ( data sets) into one graph.. so the scale is apropriate for the highest in the ( field of ) inputs... so if the human power is 400w peak, but the temp is 200 C peak... and the graph is showing both in say a 1-min frame ( 10 graduations of 6 sec ea) the graph software will revert to the "400" for the highest range of data values. Then the temp scale of 200 * max may change its profile ziggy or flatter because it must share the graph.



In the temperature trace ( that I wish the CA3 accepted two of, and can easily log two of I think, and logged two, but that is another discussion) there is two " bell curves " so to speak, using the lingo of the day. The at rest temp curve, and the on throttle temp curve. We know I am running a 3Kw controller on a 1Kw hub.. anything > 20 A is making excess heat and the temp rises fast. It is on throttle, always on amps.

If you notice, the upper one is always going up, and the lower one is always going down... unless PID amp limited by the temp input sensor control loop.... then you get a nice ( mr. max power? ) flat maximum amps derived from the temp input. Set based on CA3 PROM.

The lower "bellcurve" in the same "trace" is the "at rest and coast" temp.... The KTY sensor is silly fast and is certainly only restricted to the speed of the CA3 processor cycle or whatever. The sensor has been acuratly calibrated at more than one control temperature.


I do not know though, this is my assumption. I checked all data 100+ times for a week whenever I get any data set in to something readable, for the accuracy of the data is what shows anomalies and whatnot. I did it may times, making sure the math for the KTY sensor was right and the voltage was accurate and the other inputs from sensor work were not inflicting conflicts. The CA data out stream is slow... 10hz? Slow. There are specific settingst to go over to ensure the data is accurate.

plus after a while it looks accurate, works accurately, rolls back, ect. The shunt is presumably accurate, the system has has its share of wrinkles to iron out but has worked well for me through some good time.

I would love to see just one other persons Analogger data screenshot so we can compare how the data trace is shown on the software. ( I need to find better software or use a better datalogger somehow... )

Oh wait that exists. Here. on the sphere I am sure others have data, and https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/trip-analyzer.html There is an example data set, ( Justin's Seattle Ride) but is set to 1Hz ( I think) and you can see the temp trace, manipulate the graph scale, tick and untick certain fields, to accentuate the data set you want to focus upon. His temp sensor on that ( low powered, probably properly set up) also exhibits such drops and zig-zags from time to time also. Play with the data, you can zoomin and tick/untick things there.

I been datalogging for many years.. just not ebikes for that long. I would die for a good ( better ) data set, or the knowledge to know what to do with it. Something like "Megalogviewer" .. Honestly the data that the CA3 streams is more like kids playing in a sandbox: kiddies play.... compared to what is real data acquisition, in my opinion. MSEFI boards are cheap enough and can datalog a living truckload of data. I know them. I am an impromptu mechanic in my spare time: lots of work when I can fixxin automobiles. Im good at it. I know how the voltages work somewhat I hope.

I so wish the CA3 could output something like this (data set). 16 different inputs playback and scalable 4 at a time. Plus the 40 extra math derived data traces possible. Oh well.

If anyone knows any other data collection and easy to use software system, by all means let me know. I would love to get into it.


The hub is not vented, and has not leaked, like I said, mechanic. I presume it will work its way back the wire case eventually, but the (p-V) pressure and volume is not that great, of both the sealed hub and the volume of ATF inside of it. I can make good more power, and even the climate has warmed up since the hub cooked the halls and was repaired. Anaerobic gasket maker is the bees knees. I am sure if the hydrolic volume was so much that the increase in volume ( of the ATF) would push through the seals and flanges in short order if there was any significant increases. I havnt ad a problem and even expected some, and sourched a few check valves and other little nicknacks, to purge, or vent the volume of vapor out the hub upon increase of temp.

It is only 100 mL. I convince myself I had to do it anyway, for I did not want the bare hub to rust now that I had opened it, you know. Lol. Curiosity killed the cat, right?
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83.1v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D Broke 10 horsies :twisted: (..about 80% healed..).. :? Anybody.. what equals √3 times the line to neutral voltage? Asking for a friend.. :| (gottenymoem4115thangs?Yall?) :confused: Fabricator @ BSECo. Inc.

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by DogDipstick » May 27 2020 3:45pm

rg12 wrote:
May 26 2020 3:58pm



For me to forgive you, I would demand to know how you produce these awesome charts :lol:
Unrelated indeed but super interesting!

About power, yeah we all cross the 10kw here
So yeah, they cook stuff easy with our hot ass weather.
.
I bet it is awesome though. I know some of yall go pretty hardcore with yall bikes. The diversity in climate is interesting to me.


Yeah I am probably gona buy an ASI someday and figure all that out. So much info here on the Sphere that goes so far back.

THIS is the product that collects and saves the data from the CA3. The CA3 continuously spouts the data whether there is an Analogger attached or not. Save data, use web browser software to see. Screenshot. Thats what I do.
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-b ... a-log.html
83.1v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D Broke 10 horsies :twisted: (..about 80% healed..).. :? Anybody.. what equals √3 times the line to neutral voltage? Asking for a friend.. :| (gottenymoem4115thangs?Yall?) :confused: Fabricator @ BSECo. Inc.

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by rg12 » May 27 2020 5:01pm

DogDipstick wrote:
May 27 2020 3:45pm
rg12 wrote:
May 26 2020 3:58pm



For me to forgive you, I would demand to know how you produce these awesome charts :lol:
Unrelated indeed but super interesting!

About power, yeah we all cross the 10kw here
So yeah, they cook stuff easy with our hot ass weather.
.
I bet it is awesome though. I know some of yall go pretty hardcore with yall bikes. The diversity in climate is interesting to me.


Yeah I am probably gona buy an ASI someday and figure all that out. So much info here on the Sphere that goes so far back.

THIS is the product that collects and saves the data from the CA3. The CA3 continuously spouts the data whether there is an Analogger attached or not. Save data, use web browser software to see. Screenshot. Thats what I do.
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-b ... a-log.html
Thanks man, but it's a shame that if I will want to use it then it will work only on bikes with a CA.
Thought of having some kind of a logger to snap on customer's bikes and collect data for understanding problems.

What do you think is the easiest way possible to do this?

You mentioned Megalogviewer, how does the data collection work there?

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by john61ct » May 27 2020 5:24pm

Generic data loggers

Logomatic from Sparkfun
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12772
decent analog logger (8 channels) for $60, and can log to an SD card.
viewtopic.php?p=1525900#p1525900
txt log files, open in spreadsheet to graph
https://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=105825
also other loggers https://github.com/sparkfun/OpenLog/wik ... Comparison

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by rg12 » May 28 2020 6:06pm

john61ct wrote:
May 27 2020 5:24pm
Generic data loggers

Logomatic from Sparkfun
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12772
decent analog logger (8 channels) for $60, and can log to an SD card.
viewtopic.php?p=1525900#p1525900
txt log files, open in spreadsheet to graph
https://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=105825
also other loggers https://github.com/sparkfun/OpenLog/wik ... Comparison
Thanks alot, will research all of that :)

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by Overclocker » May 30 2020 5:41am

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"square" packing leaves large gaps between cells. one time i rode around w/ my battery side covers removed and there was a huge decrease in temperature. of course that's not practical but that tells you that by simply flowing air is effective. so some sort of ducting and fans could be devised

another option. aluminum side covers. bond the cell neg end w/ thermally-conductive material. probably not as effective as forced air but at least has a thermal path albeit a poor one

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by serious_sam » May 30 2020 7:05am

On a bike like that, you could put an airbox under the seat and blow dry air from it through the pack. What frame is that ? I like the bare steel look.

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by Overclocker » May 31 2020 1:05am

serious_sam wrote:
May 30 2020 7:05am
On a bike like that, you could put an airbox under the seat and blow dry air from it through the pack. What frame is that ? I like the bare steel look.

scratch built. will paint soon

yeah exactly. air box w/ a drain hole like a car's air filter

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by serious_sam » May 31 2020 2:55am

Overclocker wrote:
May 31 2020 1:05am
scratch built. will paint soon
Awesome. It must take a lot of work to get to that point. Congratulations.

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by Overclocker » Jun 01 2020 5:52am

serious_sam wrote:
May 31 2020 2:55am
Overclocker wrote:
May 31 2020 1:05am
scratch built. will paint soon
Awesome. It must take a lot of work to get to that point. Congratulations.
started it in 2016. still not finished :lol:

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Re: Creative Cooling Ideas?

Post by serious_sam » Jun 01 2020 6:00am

Overclocker wrote:
Jun 01 2020 5:52am
started it in 2016. still not finished :lol:
So you're on the advanced schedule then!

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