Li-ion car battery won’t charge

E

eddie1681

1 mW
Joined
Jun 18, 2020
Messages
19
Hello!

I am new to the forum and li ion battery. I have a car battery it’s li-ion battery I was out of town and it discharged fully and not it won’t take charge. Can I save this?

I have seen a lot of videos and sites with folks brining them back up to some voltage and it will take charge again.

What should I do. I have a drill battery rated at 20V and the car battery is 12V. I would replace the battery but it cost so much from the factory it’s like 1200usd.

Any help will be great appreciated.

Thank you.
 

Attachments

  • 8491799A-84F2-4AA4-9ED2-41C64DC313F7.jpeg
    8491799A-84F2-4AA4-9ED2-41C64DC313F7.jpeg
    191.7 KB · Views: 1,581
Link to the documentation for the battery?

If there was no BMS cutting out and you truly dropped to dead flat 0.00V

you may be SOL, certainly not safe to try to resurrect - what specific chemistry? LCO, LMO, NMC or NCA?

Why did you choose LI for a "car battery"? you mean as a Starter, cranking the engine?

If it's just your BMS shut down the battery to protect it, there may be a protocol to wake it back up again, detailed in your user guide.
 
john61ct said:
Link to the documentation for the battery?

If there was no BMS cutting out and you truly dropped to dead flat 0.00V

you may be SOL, certainly not safe to try to resurrect - what specific chemistry? LCO, LMO, NMC or NCA?

Why did you choose LI for a "car battery"? you mean as a Starter, cranking the engine?

If it's just your BMS shut down the battery to protect it, there may be a protocol to wake it back up again, detailed in your user guide.
Click to expand...

I think it has BMS because it has a wire that tells the ECU it’s low or not.

I bought the car with it from factory. I would get AGM battery but it might throw a code.

I look into the manual and it doesn’t really say much on how to save it.
 
eddie, did you check the various BMW forums about your battery.
It has an internal relay that disconnects when voltage gets too low.
People in the forum below may have an answer for you.

[url said:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1568380&page=2[/url]"]
SD ///M4 04:03 PM 02-23-2019

As several others mentioned in this thread, the LiFePO4 battery has a battery supervision circuit and a battery isolating switch which isolates the battery if the voltage drops to a specified level, so I didn't completely kill the battery, it just discharged to the point where the battery supervision logic kicked in.

I was looking through the F80/F82 Complete Vehicle Technical Training/Production Information document today and came across the paragraph that describes this, so for future reference, here it is:
"If the voltage falls below 8 V and the battery isolating switch opens, this becomes noticeable by a vehicle electrical system without voltage. Electrical functions are therefore no longer available. In this case the battery should not be replaced straight away as an initial measure. It is generally sufficient to recharge the battery. As soon as the battery supervision circuits detect a voltage over 10 V for longer than 2 seconds, the battery supervision circuits close the battery isolating switch again. The vehicle electrical system is supplied with voltage again. All electrical functions are available again. The battery is then charged again.

The battery only has to be replaced if the battery isolating switch no longer closes or the energy diagnosis specifies a replacement."
This is obviously what happened in my situation. Jumping the battery applied a voltage more than 10V so the supervision circuit closed the battery isolating switch, allowing electrical functions to be available and also allowing the battery to be charged.
Click to expand...

Also:
[url said:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1568380&page=2[/url]"]
SD ///M4 03:06 PM 02-24-2019

I was notified by another member that there is a reset button on the CTEK Lithium US charger for use with batteries that have an "under voltage protection", like the LiFePO4 batteries found in the M3/M4. For reference, I found this on page 9 of my CTEK manual:
BATTERIES WITH "UNDER VOLTAGE PROTECTION"
Some Lithium-ion batteries have an on-board UVP (under voltage protection) that disconnects the battery to avoid it becoming too deeply discharged. This prohibits the CTEK charger from detecting that there’s a battery connected. To bypass this, the battery charger needs to open the UVP. By pressing the RESET-button for 10 seconds, the charger opens the UVP. During this process, the charging STEP 7 is lit. Once the UVP has been opened and the battery is ready to be charged, the charger automatically starts the charging cycle.
Click to expand...


https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=964593
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1568380
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1277514
 
I guess they want you to flatbed it to the dealer.

Wow 8V for 4S LFP is super low to allow, 2Vpc the battery may be "fine" as in, work for years to come, but it has certainly lost a lot of lifetime cycles off the back end.

So if 13.8V is too high to get it started, try 10-11V for a few hours see how that goes, maybe bring voltage up gradually, slow rate of charge rather than high currents.
 
And be sure to refer to it as LFP specifically from now on, very different voltage profiles compared to other LI types.

Using the umbrella "Li-ion" implies the 3.6-3.7 nominal voltage chemistries.
 
mark5 said:
eddie, did you check the various BMW forums about your battery.
It has an internal relay that disconnects when voltage gets too low.
People in the forum below may have an answer for you.

[url said:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1568380&page=2[/url]"]
SD ///M4 04:03 PM 02-23-2019

As several others mentioned in this thread, the LiFePO4 battery has a battery supervision circuit and a battery isolating switch which isolates the battery if the voltage drops to a specified level, so I didn't completely kill the battery, it just discharged to the point where the battery supervision logic kicked in.

I was looking through the F80/F82 Complete Vehicle Technical Training/Production Information document today and came across the paragraph that describes this, so for future reference, here it is:
"If the voltage falls below 8 V and the battery isolating switch opens, this becomes noticeable by a vehicle electrical system without voltage. Electrical functions are therefore no longer available. In this case the battery should not be replaced straight away as an initial measure. It is generally sufficient to recharge the battery. As soon as the battery supervision circuits detect a voltage over 10 V for longer than 2 seconds, the battery supervision circuits close the battery isolating switch again. The vehicle electrical system is supplied with voltage again. All electrical functions are available again. The battery is then charged again.

The battery only has to be replaced if the battery isolating switch no longer closes or the energy diagnosis specifies a replacement."
This is obviously what happened in my situation. Jumping the battery applied a voltage more than 10V so the supervision circuit closed the battery isolating switch, allowing electrical functions to be available and also allowing the battery to be charged.
Click to expand...

Also:
[url said:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1568380&page=2[/url]"]
SD ///M4 03:06 PM 02-24-2019

I was notified by another member that there is a reset button on the CTEK Lithium US charger for use with batteries that have an "under voltage protection", like the LiFePO4 batteries found in the M3/M4. For reference, I found this on page 9 of my CTEK manual:
BATTERIES WITH "UNDER VOLTAGE PROTECTION"
Some Lithium-ion batteries have an on-board UVP (under voltage protection) that disconnects the battery to avoid it becoming too deeply discharged. This prohibits the CTEK charger from detecting that there’s a battery connected. To bypass this, the battery charger needs to open the UVP. By pressing the RESET-button for 10 seconds, the charger opens the UVP. During this process, the charging STEP 7 is lit. Once the UVP has been opened and the battery is ready to be charged, the charger automatically starts the charging cycle.
Click to expand...


https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=964593
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1568380
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1277514
Click to expand...

Thank you for all the links. I did go through some of them and will look at the rest. I was out of town for work and didn’t leave it on a trickle charger.

I have seen videos of how to revive li po. They hooked up another battery in parallel and it boost it back to life after a few seconds. Can this be done with my battery you think? Sorry for all the questions. I really don’t know much about lipo batteries.

Thanks
 
john61ct said:
I guess they want you to flatbed it to the dealer.

Wow 8V for 4S LFP is super low to allow, 2Vpc the battery may be "fine" as in, work for years to come, but it has certainly lost a lot of lifetime cycles off the back end.

So if 13.8V is too high to get it started, try 10-11V for a few hours see how that goes, maybe bring voltage up gradually, slow rate of charge rather than high currents.
Click to expand...

I can’t even really flat bed the car won’t go into neutral when batt is dead.

So how do I put that voltage to the battery to revive it? I don’t have a lab PSU. I can buy one they don’t look like it cost too much.

I was going to try and connect a power drill battery to it in parallel to it. But the drill battery is 20v Milwaukee lipo battery.

Thank you for all the help guys. I just want to see if I can save this battery and not buy another. It’s so costly. 1500 from the dealer.

I was going to buy a AGM cell battery but it has a IBS on board to monitor the car system and it will throw codes
 
I would try pumping a small current into it and see if it will accept any charge. You really need a power supply with current limiting. If you can get just enough charge into it to reset the BMS, then it should charge normally in the car. But there's a chance that you need to do something else to get it to take any charge. With BMW, I wouldn't be surprised if it commits suicide and can't be recovered.

If you have any 12v light bulbs around that you can put wires on, you could try your drill battery, placing the light bulb in series to limit the current. If you get any current, the light bulb will glow. Something like a car tail light lamp or halogen bulb.
 
A voltage and current adjustable PSU is really the way to go.

Cheap Chinese, don't trust the amps ratings, go to maybe 60-70%.

Top gear like Sorensens, maybe can rent, but eBay has good deals especially if you can local pickup, seen 55/55 go for like $150.
 
mark5 said:
That CTEK LiFePO4 charger SD///M4 wrote about that knows how to reset the BMS is $97 at amazon.
Click to expand...

I actually bought a Ctek charger and it won’t charge it Bc the BMS won’t let it charge. I am thinking of getting a PSU to see if I can get it to work
 
fechter said:
I would try pumping a small current into it and see if it will accept any charge. You really need a power supply with current limiting. If you can get just enough charge into it to reset the BMS, then it should charge normally in the car. But there's a chance that you need to do something else to get it to take any charge. With BMW, I wouldn't be surprised if it commits suicide and can't be recovered.

If you have any 12v light bulbs around that you can put wires on, you could try your drill battery, placing the light bulb in series to limit the current. If you get any current, the light bulb will glow. Something like a car tail light lamp or halogen bulb.
Click to expand...
mark5 said:
That CTEK LiFePO4 charger SD///M4 wrote about that knows how to reset the BMS is $97 at amazon.
Click to expand...

I actually bought a Ctek charger and it won’t charge it Bc the BMS won’t let it charge. I am thinking of getting a PSU to see if I can get it to work.

You think I can try it with a computer power supply. Don’t they have 12v And 5v for hard drives? Not trying to spend a lot and end up needing to get a new battery
 
If the Ctek charger won't work then I think a PSU won't work either.

You may need to open the battery and bypass the BMS to get enough charge to reactivate it. It looks like there are screws on the case.
 
eddie1681 said:
mark5 said:
That CTEK LiFePO4 charger SD///M4 wrote about that knows how to reset the BMS is $97 at amazon.
Click to expand...

I actually bought a Ctek charger and it won’t charge it Bc the BMS won’t let it charge. I am thinking of getting a PSU to see if I can get it to work
Click to expand...
You wrote "a CTEK charger"

did you mean, you have tried that 56-926 model

, or another specific CTEK model designed for LFP 4S e.g. TM-291, 40-003,

applied to that pack you are having trouble with?

There is a very specific protocol they employ start of the cycle,

low amps at a certain low voltage range, that is like an "open sesame code" for certain BMS to re-enable regular charging.

It might take some time, maybe overnight, to get to that point.

And no, a random 5V or 12V supply will not be helpful.

Anytime you have an investment in LI batteries, you need the right gear, $100 is nothing.

Seems to me you are heading back to the dealer, if not with the bimmer, at least with the battery?


 
john61ct said:
eddie1681 said:
mark5 said:
That CTEK LiFePO4 charger SD///M4 wrote about that knows how to reset the BMS is $97 at amazon.
Click to expand...

I actually bought a Ctek charger and it won’t charge it Bc the BMS won’t let it charge. I am thinking of getting a PSU to see if I can get it to work
Click to expand...
You wrote "a CTEK charger"

did you mean, you have tried that 56-926 model

, or another specific CTEK model designed for LFP 4S e.g. TM-291, 40-003,

applied to that pack you are having trouble with?

There is a very specific protocol they employ start of the cycle,

low amps at a certain low voltage range, that is like an "open sesame code" for certain BMS to re-enable regular charging.

It might take some time, maybe overnight, to get to that point.

And no, a random 5V or 12V supply will not be helpful.

Anytime you have an investment in LI batteries, you need the right gear, $100 is nothing.

Seems to me you are heading back to the dealer, if not with the bimmer, at least with the battery?
Click to expand...

Thank you for the help and rely. I got the Ctek charger made for that battery. I forgot the model. It’s for the lifePO4 battery.

I just got a adjustable PSU that can go up to 30V 10A

What voltage should I start with?
 
Some chargers won't start until they detect over 10V from the battery, maybe try a small lead 12V in parallel?

With an adjustable PSU, I'd start at 9.8V, then go higher in say .2V increments?

Besides the CTEK 56-926, apparently the Optimate LFP-specific models also work well for those BMW batteries.



 
Step 1..
Check the warranty on that car and battery. !
Use it if you can ...DO NOT fool with the battery if there is a chance the warranty may cover it.
Modern batteries should not need trickle charge whilst you holiday...unless there is a fault,..battery or car.!
If you mess it up and have to replace it with the same battery...it will be very expensive.
If the car has to be “flat bed” to the shop, that is not a problem even if locked and in gear. Tow trucks do that all day.
Take the battery to either the car service shop or a specialist auto battery retailer..they with have the correct testing and charging equipment and normally will check for free.
PS,.. i assume you read this in the previous post.....
Some Lithium-ion batteries have an on-board UVP (under voltage protection) that disconnects the battery to avoid it becoming too deeply discharged. This prohibits the CTEK charger from detecting that there’s a battery connected. To bypass this, the battery charger needs to open the UVP. By pressing the RESET-button for 10 seconds, the charger opens the UVP. During this process, the charging STEP 7 is lit. Once the UVP has been opened and the battery is ready to be charged, the charger automatically starts the charging cycle.
Click to expand...
 
john61ct said:
Some chargers won't start until they detect over 10V from the battery, maybe try a small lead 12V in parallel?

With an adjustable PSU, I'd start at 9.8V, then go higher in say .2V increments?

Besides the CTEK 56-926, apparently the Optimate LFP-specific models also work well for those BMW batteries.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I will give it a try when that PSU comes in. I got a good feeling this one is going to work. So start with 9.8v how about the amperage?

Thank you
 
Maybe start at 0.1C

Do not go over 0.4C in any case for longevity, maybe 0.6C in very hot weather.
 
I am basically with Hillhater on this, how old is the car?
The more you mess with it, the less likely it is that you will get some kind of warranty if it would be necessary.
How long was the car unused? Weeks, months?
I am guessing that this is a rather advanced car, with pretty good battery management. There probably are a lot of data stored that would help to diagnose why the battery got discharged.
The ones I have seen (not lithium) stores a limited number of events. So for example if you turn on and off the ignition 10-20 times a lot of data will be lost. Especially if there is critical low voltage when you do that. If you start and turn off the car a bunch of times, with low voltage and maybe charge the battery the wrong way the data will be a mess.
There probably is a connection where to connect the charger so the battery management can measure how much goes in to the battery.

If you are going to mess with it yourself, was there any more connections to the car than the + and -?
I`m thinking that the info earlier sounded like it might be the cars electronics that turn on the switch again when enough voltage is detected.
 
john61ct said:
Maybe start at 0.1C

Do not go over 0.4C in any case for longevity, maybe 0.6C in very hot weather.
Click to expand...

Hi. I am new to all this. What does 0.1C mean? I am sorry for the stupid questions.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

N
Help determining Charge% for 74V Battery
Replies
6
Views
210
amberwolf
amberwolf
Z
Li Time mini LiFePO4 battery made with pouch cells. Charging? Voltage measurement?
Replies
5
Views
398
999zip999
999zip999
P
    • Like
How to get Li ion batteries to work in (SLA) UPS
Replies
19
Views
1,159
amberwolf
amberwolf
J
Automatic loading setup for an autonomous vehicle - Will this work?
Replies
9
Views
499
jb84
J
Doctorbass
UL2271 Battery Certification Confusion - Cell spacing & max battery Voltage
Replies
1
Views
235
DaLanMan
DaLanMan
Back
Top