PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
Post Reply
User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7440
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by Doctorbass » Jul 04 2009 11:09am

Guys, I am ready to order 7 battery + charger combo.

I received both quote from them but i still never had any experience with them.

This is me that annoubced about ecity (BMSbattery) here and it seems that we have a great % satisfaction and this is great!

it appear that ping is also still supplying great products.

I will need 7 x 48V16Ahbattery with 40A continuous BMS and discharge rate and a good 5A charger.

You know that i dont have any time to built them myself and test every single cells like i did with my own pack and that's the reason why i need to order and buy them.

I need your own opinion about both compagny


For me here is the advantages of each compagny:

Ecity:

pos- people seems generally satisfied with their battery
pos- the service seems good
pos- the communication i had with Jack is good but it take alot of time(skype) to ensure Jack understand exactly what we want!
pos- the packaging is good
pos- the construction of the battery case with thick shrink is good
pos- the bms is inside the battery and seems protected
pos- they seems open to add some special demand regarding the battery construction like fiberglass to renforce the case

con- the anounced spec of C rate about the cell is diffenrent than the C about the battery :shock: cell= 2C and battery=3C
con- the 5A charger seems having some problems reported



Ping

pos- they seems good about R&D and they upgrade their product with new version.
pos- people seems generally satisfied with their battery
pos- the service seems very good ( 100% on ebay)
pos- the communication i had with Ping is excellent
Pos- the BMS is accessible and have now LED for disgnostic

con- the construction of the battery case with fragile thin blue shrink
con- the bms is OUTSIDE the battery and seems not very protected

here is both of the battery to show you the differences:

Ecity BATTERY
Image
Attachments
PING  3620v25.jpg
PING battery V2.5
PING 3620v25.jpg (58.08 KiB) Viewed 2173 times
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

User avatar
karma   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 675
Joined: Dec 18 2007 6:02am
Location: hamilton,ontario
Contact:

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by karma » Jul 04 2009 11:15am

my v1 ping pack is a year and a half old and its still going. i wish i had the bms with the leds. that is a nice feature to have. with soft packs.

User avatar
kentlim26   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 653
Joined: Apr 04 2009 2:45pm
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by kentlim26 » Jul 04 2009 12:33pm

the battery charger look like my 5A charger. for the first 2 charging. it didn't produce any sound, after that, it has some funny sharp noise when is charging 3rd time and after 4th, 5th and so on, especially end of the charging time. It has sound like " tick,,, tick,, tick,... " annoying. i don't know what is that? I have ask them, but no reply. Vpower also used that charger 5A. why are they so afraid to tell me? Results, the charging from the charger do charged. i got no problem going for 30km range or more. My distance are short, I enjoy every ride I got. The charger of 5amper can do the charged within 2.5hours for 48v 20hr (range 43kM), short distance it will fully charged my battery lifepo4 for 1 to 2hrs. that is really a fast charger.

kentlim
Conhis hub motor run on April 2010, 48v 1000watts hub motor distance run 5800km, and Re~alive cyclone kit bought in year 2009, Bought a greentime controller 18fets- 4110 , 48v~ 90v , 3-speed mode. Latest top speed I got for my greentime controller 76.8km/h ! , yet to reach 80km/h, or I will never reached 80km/h ?

User avatar
snowranger   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 652
Joined: Sep 02 2008 4:51pm
Location: Fog City, CA

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by snowranger » Jul 04 2009 12:56pm

What's the price difference?
Electric: BBS02 / Nuvinci Developer Kit / 14s Li
Bike : Yuba Mundo
Accessories: 12 volt lighting, 48V horn
Miles: 300 mi

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35819
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by dogman dan » Jul 06 2009 5:45am

Figure either one has a real world practical c rate of no more than 2c, so that's 32 amps, not 40 in a 16 ah size. So you really need a 20 ah pack for 40 amps. The smaller packs will work of course, especially with a controller in the 20-30 amp range, but the lesser batteries really do need to be sized carefully to the bike to be able to last the really long time. Yes you can push it, but I think that's a good way to find a weak cell fast.

But you know all that, you taught me most of what I know about batteries.

These days, there are lots of other options than Ping that have similar quality cells. I doubt many other sellers have similar quality CS though. But the price difference may be substantial, so pick based on that, and the customers ability to pay more for Ping. If Ping knows who you are, he should be willing to give a better price on a bigger order to get your approval of his product . I can't imagine somebody I'd want touting my product more than the doc.

User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7440
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by Doctorbass » Jul 06 2009 10:17am

Thanks dogman Karma and kentlim26,

I reconize that i never tested any ping or Ecity cells.. so my experience about them is still limited. I need your advices like that to help me to decide for buying 7 packs. I dont have time to test them since the request for 7x 100% functional electric bike kit need to be completed soon.

so you state that they are just 2C?

I just wonder cause Ping offered me no problem to install a 40A continuous BMS on them without any doubt... so... if he is confident that drawing 40A on these battery would still keep his products under warrandy and not getting any problem.. that make me confuse about that...

i'll double check with him.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

User avatar
nicobie   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3039
Joined: Aug 07 2008 1:48pm
Location: Central Coast CA,USA

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by nicobie » Jul 06 2009 11:59am

My ping BMS can handle 43a cont. with no problem. When I get a spike over 48a it will kick out.

Nick
Take it easy... but take it. (Woody Guthrie)

my eTownie build thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=23701
Magazine article https://www.electricbike.com/nicks-etownie/

User avatar
GCinDC   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4245
Joined: Jan 23 2009 11:19am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by GCinDC » Jul 06 2009 12:36pm

I got a (v2.0) Ping battery in October 08 and used it every day since. Recently upped the controller to 30A, but as you can see from his 'user guide' below, the BMS is 24 Amps Max. And I run it at that regularly. I've had a 25A fuse on it for 5 months... Ride up mile long hill and C/A tops out at 26A and stays there. So I'm surprised if you can get 40A, (now I want a new BMS) but if Ping says you can, I'd trust it. I LOVE the fact that his 48V battery comes hot off the charger at 60V and only hits 48V under max continuous amps. I've had a great experience with him. Was very helpful picking & customizing a battery and answering any Q's I had since then. My charger recently blew at 6 months, 2 days over warranty he gave, but he sent me a new (and much more sturdy) one (that doesn't sing) for only the cost of shipping.

User Guide - 48V12Ah

Specification of Battery Pack and BMS
Rated Voltage: 48 Volts
Capacity: 12 Amp Hours
Weight: 6 kg
Suggested Load: 500 Watt
Max Load: 600 Watt

Specification of BMS (Battery Management System)
Charging Voltage: 61 Volts (Max)
Charging Current: 5 Amps (Max)
Rated Discharging Current: 12 Amps
Max Continuous Discharging Current: 24 Amps
Cut-off Current (Max Current): 30 Amps
Youtube channel, 2013 Highlights vid. Ebike Nerdcast.
Giant DH Comp: 20s lipo (11.6Ah), hs3540, Adaptto Mini-E, 900W BMSBattery charger.
GT I-Drive (sold), 20s lipo, 9C, 72V 45A 12FET.

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35819
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by dogman dan » Jul 07 2009 6:33am

The v2 cells are said to be able to handle 3c, but I'm talking about the huge difference between a pack expected to make 500 cycles, and one the customer is demanding to last for 1000 or more. Ideally we'd all be discharging at 1c, and expecting 3000 cycles, but somewhere there is a compromise that has to be made between carrying 40 ah which would suck, and carrying 10 ah and having the battery last only a few thousand miles. It's just my opinion that the current ping offering should be discharged at 2 c or less to increase the cycle lifespan, and the real world proof test will require years of riding to do. But my conservative approach has worked well for me with my ping v1, which has mostly been used at 1 to 1.5 c and now has 4000 miles on it with no loss of range. A lifetime in construction has taught me to de rate the expected performance of everything you need to last. If the customer doesn't mind buying you a new tool when the job is done, then let er rip and fry stuff to get the job done.

I find that for the "ping style" foil pouch batteries either the 36v 20 ah or the 48v 15 ah packs are about the ideal size and weight to carry easily. These sizes will work fine for 90% of the bike motors out there with controllers up to 30 amps. It's really just the 530x motors and some of the cyclones that need 40 amps continuous. It may depend on how we define continuous too. In my riding I call continuous an amp rate I go at for half an hour or more. Even on my uphill all the way home ride, I only max out for about 10 minuites of the hour. If I am going to climb 7% for more time than that, I'll do it at half throttle, in much lower gears. Your customers may not be savvy to that till they melt a few motors, or kill a battery, so you should be conservative telling them what they can and can't do on the bike.

Just exactly what are you pairing up the batteries with? And what kind of riding is expected?

Velocipede   1 W

1 W
Posts: 58
Joined: Jul 07 2009 10:08am

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by Velocipede » Jul 07 2009 10:21am

I don't know how soon you need this order completed, but you'll have to wait 3 weeks for ping.
I removed my battery from my bag and put it in my backpack a couple of times while I parked the bike outside: I'm also a bit worried about the thin bms wires getting crushed by the weight of the battery at the bottom of my bag.

My ping works as expected. The bms lights are nice.

I cannot add much about C rate, I discharge mine at 1C and I just build my bike this spring.

I just registered but read this forum a lot during my build. Thanks for the many great posts Doc.
I'm in Montreal and may do a short trip to Quebec this summer.

User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7440
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by Doctorbass » Jul 07 2009 3:44pm

Velocipede wrote:I don't know how soon you need this order completed, but you'll have to wait 3 weeks for ping.
I removed my battery from my bag and put it in my backpack a couple of times while I parked the bike outside: I'm also a bit worried about the thin bms wires getting crushed by the weight of the battery at the bottom of my bag.

My ping works as expected. The bms lights are nice.

I cannot add much about C rate, I discharge mine at 1C and I just build my bike this spring.

I just registered but read this forum a lot during my build. Thanks for the many great posts Doc.
I'm in Montreal and may do a short trip to Quebec this summer.
You said 3 weeks???
:shock:

The shipping cost for 3 packs is like 350usd for me.. so i HOPE they will ship ASAP !

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

User avatar
glv   10 W

10 W
Posts: 75
Joined: Apr 05 2009 6:52pm
Location: Twin Cities, MN, US

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by glv » Jul 07 2009 4:42pm

The V3 ping packs will do (Ping claims) 3C continuous and 4.5C burst. I ran my 48V20Ah pack for 3-4 weeks daily pulling 70A peaks, probably closer to 30-35A continuous. No problems so far *knocks on wood*. The 2A charger he supplies is pretty much crap, the fan started making noise after 2 charge cycles :roll: I've been following your other ecitypower.com thread and have been thinking about ordering an 8A charger from them. Ping says up to 0.5C charging is fine on the V3, but more will fry the FETs on the BMS.

Personally I kinda like the external BMS. I know I can replace it easily if it dies :D Judging from how much heat the SMT balancing resistors throw off it might be sooner than later. My infrared thermometer showed almost 250F on a few :shock: It melted the tape. The V3 BMS does not have the cool LEDs like the prior versions, though.

The wires do seem a like they could be a weak point, but it should be fine if in another enclosure or bag.

The price without shipping was about 20% higher than the V2.5 pack. My 48V 20Ah pack was about USD$925 total shipped to the US. It did take a couple weeks even paying the outrageous $125 for shipping :x

azisme   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 33
Joined: Oct 13 2008 10:39pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by azisme » Jul 07 2009 7:28pm

The V3 ping packs will do (Ping claims) 3C continuous and 4.5C burst.
What's this about V3? I only see 2.5's still on the website. Do you know something we don't?

azisme   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 33
Joined: Oct 13 2008 10:39pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by azisme » Jul 07 2009 8:39pm

Never mind. I finally found several post confirming V3 including this one:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 93#p153065

User avatar
glv   10 W

10 W
Posts: 75
Joined: Apr 05 2009 6:52pm
Location: Twin Cities, MN, US

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by glv » Jul 07 2009 9:38pm

azisme wrote:Never mind. I finally found several post confirming V3 including this one:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 93#p153065
Yep, just email ping and he'll hook you up. Not sure why they don't have them on the site yet...

Velocipede   1 W

1 W
Posts: 58
Joined: Jul 07 2009 10:08am

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by Velocipede » Jul 07 2009 10:29pm

Yes, 3 Weeks.

10 working days to build the pack plus 4-5 working days shipping.
At least that's what I waited 2 months ago.

glv : open the charger and and put a drop of oil in the fan bearing to eliminate the noise.

User avatar
glv   10 W

10 W
Posts: 75
Joined: Apr 05 2009 6:52pm
Location: Twin Cities, MN, US

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by glv » Jul 08 2009 11:14am

Velocipede wrote:open the charger and and put a drop of oil in the fan bearing to eliminate the noise.
did that when the fan started acting up but that fix only worked for a couple more weeks. Maybe I waited too long...

User avatar
GCinDC   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4245
Joined: Jan 23 2009 11:19am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by GCinDC » Jul 08 2009 12:06pm

Velocipede wrote:10 working days to build the pack plus 4-5 working days shipping.
At least that's what I waited 2 months ago.
Same wait for me to build the pack a custom size -- 12.5" x 5.5" x 3" to squeeze into the triangle.
Youtube channel, 2013 Highlights vid. Ebike Nerdcast.
Giant DH Comp: 20s lipo (11.6Ah), hs3540, Adaptto Mini-E, 900W BMSBattery charger.
GT I-Drive (sold), 20s lipo, 9C, 72V 45A 12FET.

User avatar
LogRaam   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 29
Joined: Oct 23 2008 9:05am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by LogRaam » Jul 17 2009 11:27am

Maybe I can share my life experience with ECITY.

Mr. Xie has been very mannerly. I had good price and no problem with shipping. The LIFEPO4 48V/20Ah shows 53.9 volts on the Cycle Analyst.

Inside the shrink you have a BMS, and many soft layers. When in use the pack becomes colder (chemical reaction?).

2 weeks ago, the pack just fall in the car and the RCA connector sank into the top layer of the pack, punching a 1cm hole inside it. After some sparks, nothing happened. I poured some epoxy glue fillin’ the hole and fix the external isolation. Then connecting the battery pack gives me the same performances than what I got before the “crash”. This product seems to be a though one. Thanks to LIFEPO4 technology.

LogRaam
LogRaam
-----------------------------------------------------------
Surly Pugsley + Shiver SC... cooked the Ezee hub :-( upgrading to X5 Cruiser or Brute with 2x LiFePO4 48V/20Ah.

pwbset   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1583
Joined: Apr 23 2008 8:29pm
Location: Montana

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by pwbset » Jul 17 2009 11:51am

LogRaam wrote:The LIFEPO4 48V/20Ah shows 53.9 volts on the Cycle Analyst.
Interesting... do you know if he's doing something like 14s @ 3.85v/cell or is it like 16s @ ~3.35v/cell and he's just charging it up conservatively to extend cycle life? Most "48v" packs LFP would be 16s yes? Have you tested to LVC to see if you're actually getting anywhere near 20ah? What kind of sustained amperage can you get out of it? Thanks for sharing the info!

User avatar
glv   10 W

10 W
Posts: 75
Joined: Apr 05 2009 6:52pm
Location: Twin Cities, MN, US

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by glv » Jul 17 2009 2:02pm

My 48V ping pack shows around 54-55V after the surface charge has drained off. It's closer to 60-61V hot off the charger, though.

User avatar
LogRaam   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 29
Joined: Oct 23 2008 9:05am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: PING OR ECITY that's the question !

Post by LogRaam » Jul 18 2009 5:58pm

Hi pwbset,

Actually I'm not knowledgeable enought to give you this kind of info, but DocBass should help me out soon with a new ebike setup, using these packs.. maybe he can test them and post the results after.

Here's the basic infos about the pack:
Normal Voltage:48V;
Capacity:20 Ampere Hour;
Number of Cells:16;
Charge Current:2 Amperes;
Maximum Continuous Current:40 Amperes;
With BMS/PCM,Charger.
LogRaam
-----------------------------------------------------------
Surly Pugsley + Shiver SC... cooked the Ezee hub :-( upgrading to X5 Cruiser or Brute with 2x LiFePO4 48V/20Ah.

Post Reply