Buying a new battery: your advice sought

Rcartes · Sep 5, 2022

I'm new to this business and would appreciate some advice. I'm fitting a ToongSheng conversion setup to one of my bikes, and that seems pretty straightforward - but what battery to buy?

The major choice seems to be between a Hailong or similar in a nice casing (see 1st photo), and an uncased battery (see 2nd). As far as I can see, there's no substantive difference between the two (I wouldn't regard lesser things like connections, etc, as substantive differences), the only one being that the Hailong etc have that nice case but the 'unboxed' ones don't - oh, and the trifling difference that the Hailongs are three times the price.

So why would I pay so much more for a nice case - or, putting it another way, why shouldn't I go for the (much) cheaper option? Is there any significant reason why an unboxed one wouldn't do, especially if I put it in a good, secure bag on my rear rack?

999zip999 · Sep 5, 2022

Don't go to cheap on battery as there a lot of stored energy . And can make fire and you can't go after China for that. If the maker is using good cells he will tell you model number and brand.

Chalo · Sep 5, 2022

Count on the cheaper pack being built up from very cheap, reused, or even mismatched cells. It may or may not have balancing BMS. Only buy it if you'll be cool about it crapping out early, which is likely.

99t4 · Sep 5, 2022

Rcartes said:
So why would I pay so much more for a nice case - or, putting it another way, why shouldn't I go for the (much) cheaper option? Is there any significant reason why an unboxed one wouldn't do, especially if I put it in a good, secure bag on my rear rack?

Your question is valid, but you are approaching it for the wrong reasons. Choice between Hailong case vs. naked shrink-wrapped should be because of your design requirements. Which fits best in your desired location? Which is safer? Hailong case has benefit of easy removal to take with you in high-crime areas. All else being equal, non-cased can be a bit less expensive (the case shell itself is not expensive).

Apparently you are making your decision based on price, with incomplete technical/spec data.

"Truth in advertising" does not exist (except for maybe a very few battery vendors) for battery advertising. For example, your second choice, the blue shrinkwrapped battery, lists 13s3p 48v 20Ah. 3p is going to provide 20Ah? :lol: Really?!?!? Call me skeptical.

So comparing these two batteries based simply on price is not valid, especially since we don't know the quality and condition of their components. Cell quality, power ratings, BMS quality, wiring quality and workmanship, basic design principles. Just a long-distance guess, but neither will live up to their advertised ratings.

eMark · Sep 5, 2022

Rcartes said:
So why would I pay so much more for a nice case - or, putting it another way, why shouldn't I go for the (much) cheaper option? Is there any significant reason why an unboxed one wouldn't do, especially if I put it in a good, secure bag on my rear rack?

Costs 3 times more ($411) because it's at least 3 times better as far as performance, cycle life longevity (Grade A LG 21700 4800mAh cells = 19.2mAh), protective case and Warranty.

Two 48V20Ah versions - both priced at $411 - not sure of difference
https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Pack-Power-Ebike-Battery/dp/B081N8WYMX/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=48v%2Bebike%2Bbattery&qid=1662407634&sr=8-3&th=1

Here's a Unit Pack Power website link for more comparison information ...
https://www.uppbattery.com/products/s039-5-52v-19-2ah-bms40a-lg4800mah-cells-li-ion-ebike-battery-for-0-1500w-motor-usa-stock-fast-delivery-3-5working-days-arrive-1346 (USA Stock)
https://www.uppbattery.com/collections/48v-ebike-battery (USA Stock)

docw009 · Sep 5, 2022

If it were me, I'd buy the UPP, given those two choices. I have owned six UPP batteries and not been disappointed. except for the last one which was a Hailong 48V10AH. Nothing wrong with it, except it's too small. I should have bought the 14 AH. It also had a loose BMS connector, which I saw and secured. The construction of the Hailong was to current mass market standards, except they do not have cell level fusing. They have cell level thermal vents which react to heating, and open the circuit, still not really a fuse.

When you look at your blue shrinkwrap, they're claiming 20AH out of a 3P configuration which is impossible. The beset 18650's are 3.5AH amd the best 21700's are 5AH, so the best you can do is 10.5AH and 15AH. Since they lie about that, there;s no credibility. Scratch that seller off the list.

In general, the shrink wraps are not made safely. I've bought about four cheap ones. a;; under %100 USD. They glue the cells together in an array. You only have a layers of thin heat shrink PVC on each cell case, and there may be a 5-40 volt difference in the cell case voltages of neighboring cells. If a cell is hot enough to vent, it might also melt thru that heat shrink, Short circuit Hell. Big time ebike fire.

Both UPP and the little guys use generic chinese cells, but at least UPP uses a better grade of CHinese cell. We're talking about cells that cost around a dollar, maybe under 50 cents for the shrink wrap guy. There are 39 cells in the blue pack. If he sells it for 100 dollars. he probably has 50 centers. UPP might pay $1-1.50. I know that if I build a battery, it will cost me $5/cell for Samsung GA's if aI find a sale. They are usually $6 USD.

And the problem with cheaper cells is short life and bad reliability stats. AUtomotive cells have failure rates better than 1 in 5 million. One of my under $100 blue shrink wraps had 1 out of 20 cells fail after a year, and a second cell failed a few months later. Of the four shrink wraps I bought, two failed. They didn't get old and put out less current. They stopped working.

docw009 · Sep 6, 2022

ebuilder said:
My questions are...
Considering the performance to dollar ratio with a huge nod to the convenience of just buying a battery and it showing up at your doorstep, do you notice an undeniable difference in performance and longevity between a UPP battery and batteries you have built yourself at $5-6/cell?

Last questions is, based upon all your research to buy the best A grade cells at the best price, do you have a 'go to' A grade cell, whether a 18650 or 21700? Do you prefer either a 18650 or 21700, and if so, a particular cell brand/model favorite for your builds which you have gotten great performance/longevity from?

I bought three UPP bottle batteries from 2017-2018, all 36V10.5AH but two of them use LG/Samsung cells. I recently put all three thru a load tester, which gives me a good check on capacity. This is for a constant current of 3A from full charge to 30V.

7.50 AH generic UPP cell
9.25 AH premium UPP
9.60 AH premium UPP

The load tester is a $40 circuit card with a cooling fan that I bought from China. It pulls a constant current from the battery, while a microprocessor times it, and accumulates the AH. It stops at a user programmed LVC. The box is incredibly fragile. I blew it up changing the current levels/ and must have jumped it too high. Paypal got it replaced. However, it's consistent and much more convenient than my earlier method of riding a bike 30-40 miles til the battery went flat, while using an RC wattmeter to measure the AH. Also takes hills/wind/throttle variables out. The only tradeoff is I can't exceed 160 watts, so that limits the current. My 3 amps still compares to the test conditions used to rate the cells, usually around 1A/cell,.

View attachment F9060006.jpg

The above results say the premium cells last longer. I've also tested my Luna Mini, a 52V6AH pack using 14S-2P Samsung 30Q's. It's five years old and only cycled about 10 times. Tests out at 6.20 AH. Another 48V Luna pack with Samsung 30Q's from 2016 also tests out at 12.7AH, but I don't remember its original rating, probably 5P 15AH. Still to test are that Hailong UPP 10Ah and another Luna 52V12AH with 30Q's from 2015.

In the picture is a $79 10S-2P chinese shrink wrap. The label claims it has Samsung NCR18650GA cells for a 7AH rating. I expected they were lying, but I bought it anyway. Tests out at 5.96 AH, or 3AH per cell. Might be reject GA's. Not going to open it, but sometimes you do get performance out of the cheap stuff.

If I were buying grade A cells, I''d want Samsung/Sanyo NCR18650GA, LG MH1 and MJS on my list, plus all the Panasonic variants.

docw009 · Sep 7, 2022

One economy approach to budget but safer ebiking is waiting for deals on used scooter/ebike packs from Battery Clearing House, battery hookup, and jag35.com. They resell lightly use battery packs from failed scooter/ebike rental ventures. These use name brand cells, like GA, MH1, MJ1, various panasonic, and are assembled in rugged frames designed for rentals. You might have to replace the BMS or re-package to fit your bike, Tradeoff is they're almost always 36V, though I've seen some 48V on the jag35 website. Also the AH is low. Users have taken them apart just to re-use the cells.

For a low cost ebike, I had the Battery Clearing House $35 front Bafang motor running on two $30 sticks of 36V8Ah (actual), Add 100 bucks worth of electronics. I now have that UPP Hailong ion that bike, and I repackaged the sticks into more useable form factors.

I did get into battery building, and the tools/supplies make it too expensive to build one or two batteries. Yet, UPP packs with quality cells have gotten quite expensive these days, at over $5/cell premium for a 52 cell battery, so one could buy a Hailong case and BMS for $80 and put $300 worth of GA cells into it and maybe beat their price if you had the equipment. One could also build a safer shrink wrapped pack with used cells or maybe better quality chinese EVE/BAK/Lishen cells. In general, it was just the hobbyist in me that led me to build batteries, and there's no economy in it. I have no plans to build any more.

.

eMark · Sep 7, 2022

ebuilder said:
UPP batteries consist of China grade cells which are not OEM A-grade cells and as you explain and therefore will degrade faster and never perform quite as well on a cell level.

It's almost certain that OEM A-grade automotive cells are already manufactured in China .. they have the technology and QC. It's not that China isn't capable of automotive A-grade cells plus Chinese labor less expensive. UPP also uses Lishen and BAK which are not considered A-grade automotive quality cells. Seems like there is more than one kind of Grade A cell depending on one's definition of "A-Grade" :wink:

It wouldn't surprise me if LG Chem (Chinese) has part ownership in UPP. It's almost unreal how much market share (worldwide) UPP has acquired in just a few years ... https://www.unitpackpower.com/

2010-2014 UNITPACKPOWER is built,Average annual sales is $1000000.
2014-2017 Sales up to $10000000,company area is 2000㎡,USA and GERMANY warehouse and after sales office established.Factory through IS09001 certificate.
2018-2019 Sales up to $20000000,we have more than 20 patent technology,sales to more than 20 countries.
2020 Sales will up to $25000000,company area grow to 6000㎡,and we approved China high-tech enterprises.

Makes one wonder if Elan realizes it would've been just as good, if not better (less expensive?) to have his 21700 and 4680 automotive A-grade cells manufactured in China by LG Chem instead of one of his megafactories.

Chalo · Sep 7, 2022

eMark said:
Makes one wonder if Elan realizes it would've been just as good, if not better (less expensive?) to have his 21700 and 4680 automotive A-grade cells manufactured in China by LG Chem instead of one of his megafactories.

Considering how automated the process of making cylindrical cells is, it seems like transglobal shipping might eat up whatever small savings you get by making them in a low labor cost country.
My bet is Chinese Teslas are the likeliest to get Chinese made cells.

https://insideevs.com/news/559587/catl-battery-plant-shanghai-tesla/

eMark · Sep 7, 2022

Chalo said:
Considering how automated the process of making cylindrical cells is, it seems like transglobal shipping might eat up whatever small savings you get by making them in a low labor cost country.

My bet is Chinese Teslas are the likeliest to get Chinese made cells.

Likely LG (if LG) will be able to manufacture more A-Grade automotive cells than needed for just Chinese-made Teslas. Could some end up in American-made Teslas??

I'm as frsutrated as ebuilder as are millions of Americans that sadly have to rely on China for so many, many products. It just doesn't seem fair ... and it isn't fair. Trump seemed to have China "over a barrel" ... and then along came joe.

Wasn't there a time during Trump's Presidency when America was actually exporting oil ... or was i just dreaming??

eMark · Sep 7, 2022

Kind of off-topic but did you know that China is expected to commence operations of 44 crude oil refinery projects during 2022-2026? Accounting for 24% of all crude oil refinery projects in Asia, driven by growing refining capacity to meet the rising demand for plastics and petroleum products.

On the other hand the last crude oil refinery built in America was in 1977 ... with others slowly being scrapped. Big Oil says it's not worth the investment to build new American crude oil refineries.

Interesting article ... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/06/20/refineries-profit-gas-prices/ ... even if in the Washington Post.
"Companies see only headaches on the horizon for refineries, undercutting the White House push to boost production"

It really does seem as if America's best years are behind us. The evidence seems to be all around us. For those that don't think so are they in denial ???

The future for our children and grandchildren doesn't look as promising as were your and my best years. It makes me sad. Wish i was wrong ... am I ??

Chalo · Sep 7, 2022

eMark said:
The future for our children and grandchildren doesn't look as promising as were your and my best years. It makes me sad. Wish i was wrong ... am I ??

It's funny that American industry phasing out obsolete and cost-ineffective tech makes you feel that way, when it's really the breaking of the social contract with labor and younger generations that has set us on the path of gradual disintegration.

Renewable energy and fusion power are steps forward. Petroleum and coal are steps backward. (That's why there's so often a correlation between people who favor a revival of dirty energy and people who favor a return to Jim Crow.)

999zip999 · Sep 7, 2022

Sorry to say oil is Not going anywhere in the near future or 50yrs.
Battery pack as I said earlier is best when you
know the name of the maker and the model number at which point you can look up the cell and see what cell they will use to make your pack if you trust them.
Laptop 3amp to 5amp
Flashlight 5amp to 8amp
Power tool 5amp to 15amp
Vape pipe 10amp to 30amp
Ebike 5amp to 35amp
This is not completely True it's just to get you thinking.
Get a good cell and bt bms is nice or a Ping I think it still might have blinky LEDs ?

99t4 · Sep 8, 2022

eMark said:
Wasn't there a time during Trump's Presidency when America was actually exporting oil ... or was i just dreaming??

That was an Obama administration policy. Trump reversed it (along with most all Obama policies).

tomjasz · Sep 8, 2022

eMark said:
Rcartes said:

So why would I pay so much more for a nice case - or, putting it another way, why shouldn't I go for the (much) cheaper option? Is there any significant reason why an unboxed one wouldn't do, especially if I put it in a good, secure bag on my rear rack?

Click to expand...

Costs 3 times more ($411) because it's at least 3 times better as far as performance, cycle life longevity (Grade A LG 21700 4800mAh cells = 19.2mAh), protective case and Warranty.

Two 48V20Ah versions - both priced at $411 - not sure of difference
https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Pack-Power-Ebike-Battery/dp/B081N8WYMX/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=48v%2Bebike%2Bbattery&qid=1662407634&sr=8-3&th=1

Here's a Unit Pack Power website link for more comparison information ...
https://www.uppbattery.com/products/s039-5-52v-19-2ah-bms40a-lg4800mah-cells-li-ion-ebike-battery-for-0-1500w-motor-usa-stock-fast-delivery-3-5working-days-arrive-1346 (USA Stock)
https://www.uppbattery.com/collections/48v-ebike-battery (USA Stock)

cheap BMS, nickel coated steel connections.

tomjasz · Sep 8, 2022

My EM3ev packs have outlived every UPP battery by a couple of years. I did buy another UPP battery but paid more for pure nickel connections, 35E cells, and an upgrade BMS. They can build a better battery. Listed are typically budge5 but they are finally using decent cell separation thanks to larger cases.

Rcartes · Sep 10, 2022

Firstly, my apologies for not responding earlier: I've been away and without proper internet coverage (how did we survive before the internet, eh?).

But mainly this is to thank people for their very helpful responses; I've decided not to go for the shrink-wrapped version but to a 'proper' battery. Let's see how I get on with it when it arrives (from China, so it'll take a while).

Meanwhile, I've been carrying out the TongSheng conversion, which has gone to plan so far; there weren't any proper instructions with it but I found good manuals, notable from Whoosh here in the UK (https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?manuals).

However, there is one problem I'm uncertain about: fitting the lights. But maybe I should start a different thread to ask that question.

docw009 · Sep 10, 2022

ebuilder said:
There may be some middle ground on this. A custom built battery.
We know that cell quality matters...a lot, as it turns out and A-grade cells cost a lot more...perhaps 3-4 x's more per cell for maybe 2-3 x's more the performance/capacity/long term reliability over cheaper grade non OEM cells.

Custom battery is a way to go, if you find a builder. I had a 10S-3P built for $250 with Sanyo GA cells by a man in Florida, He rode ebikes across Canada, invented a pressure contact system, for 18650 cells that did not sell well, and posted a lot here. Great battery til I burned it up. Pilot error. He got out of the business. Too much liability if you ask me.

I have also sent messages to UPP on ebay, asking for a quote on the same battery with LG/Sanyo and they responded with a a reasonable adder. maybe $-4/cell, and I took them up on it. EVen though they now have $25M in sales, they still do custom.

For you Doc, a simple question. Is it worth it in cost/benefit to either build a custom battery or seek out a custom battery builder?

Yes. When I gave two ebikes to my sister. I ordered those UPP packs with good cells.It wasn't much money compared to peace of mind. I would not give anyone a battery that I made.

Last question is, have you heard of or experienced a custom battery supplier where you can spec your preferred cells that 'you trust' and even target BMS current?

Sorry. Don't know anyone, Edit. I just saw the UPP link above for custom quotes. Try that.

docw009 · Sep 10, 2022

FYI. I did the load test on my UPP Hailong 48V10AH. Came out as 10,4 AH, 54.6V to 40,0 V.

tomjasz · Sep 11, 2022

Rechie@unitpackpower.com

But EM3ev is a superior builder. I did a custom UPP when EM3ev was backlogged and slow as heck. Now all EM3ev lists are GA cells. Not a favorite here. My last two batteries are 21700 50E from Shanghai Aijiu Energy Technology
WhatsApp/WeChat:+86 13262882371
Email: jenny@aijiupower.com | http://aijiupower.com

Back to nickel coated steel but they are 36V and not road hard.

tomjasz · Sep 11, 2022

Doug at California eBike sold UPP batteries and we saw an unacceptably high failure rate. Warranty coverage was abysmal. The shop took a beating honoring the warranty. When a UPP battery caused a garage fire UPP was untouchable and shop insurance paid the $50,000 claim.

ebuilder said:
Tom didn't answer so I thought I would editorialize briefly. Many very knowledgeable, long time ebikers have weighed in on this subject, To me, perhaps the single most important decision an ebike builder or even one who buys an ebike considers is:
Battery Cell Quality = no.1 consideration.

Yes, BMS quality and amperage rating matter as well. Battery construction also matters in terms of internal resistance and overall long-term reliability.

But, what kind of cells we have inside our battery and scaling battery size for a given application in terms of battery capacity relative to how much battery is consumed for each ride, these are VERY important considerations.

How do most people do in this regard? We fall short. Most if asked what kind of cells they have inside their battery? They just shrug and defer to the battery maker. Not good enough for anybody who cares about the quality of ebike ownership.

If/when I come across a knowledgable ebiker who knows a lot about batteries through vast experience, I like to pick their brain.

For me, what to do? My next battery will be under greater scrutiny. This will result in a 'custom battery'. I have options because I am a DYI guy and could certainly build a decent battery. I do lean toward having a custom battery built however because of the labor intensity. But, I may build my next batteries moving forward as well because all the parts including cells are available on line and its mostly like building Legos. Construction does matter, but what matters most of all is the 'quality of battery cells' inside the battery enclosure.

I think a viable alternative to building a custom battery is to find somebody who will do this reliably.
It would be great to have such a list on this forum because it is so important. If not, maybe a good idea to have a private list.
UPP has a 'decent' track record of reliability for their cost effective, production batteries comprised of Chinese, un-pedigreed cells as Doc described. And, UPP has a custom department where you can specify important things like cell type, nickel versus nickel plated strips, BMS amperage etc. So they maybe a a go to supplier so we don't end up playing the 'cell quality lottery' seen too often on this site with dire consequences out in the wild.

LInk to UPP's custom battery:
https://www.uppbattery.com/pages/custom-battery

999zip999 · Sep 11, 2022

Cheap is cheap quality helps . Lighting in a box.

m3vuv · Sep 12, 2022

that shrink wrapped pack reminds me of one i got from ebaywas listed as 32ah 3p 13s using 18650 cells,was total b.s in reality more like 5ah,how can they get 32ah with a 3p 18650 pack,in short they cant they just lie!!,the battery lasted about 2 weeks before cells started to fail,when i opened it no cells had any markings just a plain green/light blue shrink wrap,utter garbage,think it was £125 ,it was a bad choice to buy,its the old saying if it it sounds too good to be true etc!!!.

tomjasz · Sep 13, 2022

Look, a shrink wrap pack for a 250W motor drawing 12-15A may be fine. They were for me, but when you cram 52V 17Ah into a Hailong case without cell separation and nickel-coated steel connections and a B flat $5 BMS... Get good insurance! Cuz UPP and their ilk can't be touched. I've got a dozen UPP BMS. CHEAP FEATURELESS.

That said they CAN build a decent pack, but the price quickly becomes as high or higher than EM3ev or ebikes.ca WTF?! And they are completely insulated from any responsibility.

We had a customer that bought two UPP batteries to do an EU travel log across the EU on eBikes. Both batteries failed. UPP had us send to their goof in DE, a complete fiasco!..and in the end, we paid to replace both and refund the cost. ONE OF MANY!!

We can find a number of happy buyers. One-off, two-off, and even 3-4 successes. BUT sell a few a day for a year or two and watch the profits collapse.

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