California’s giant new batteries kept the lights on in a heat wave

nicobie

nicobie

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I got this from the LA Times so I doubt it's BS. I'm a bit surprised that we have come so far and fast getting a decent sized battery backup that's actually useful. It appears that they saved the state from blackouts due to the record temperatures we've been getting lately.

Way to go California 🥳🎉🎉

http://enewspaper.latimes.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?guid=5977934e-e6fd-42f4-aa9a-6151713c014f
 
For sure those batteries played a part in avoiding blackouts with their 3+GW peak contribution…(6GWh total for the day).
…but at the very same time California was importing 9+GW from interstate, (160 GWh total for the day )
…and consumers statewide had been asked to switch off high demand appliances , which reduced peak demand by 2+ GW !
So you could say that consumers and out of state generators did more to avoid blackouts than the batteries
Remember also, those batteries have to be charged from generation sources, but for much of the year,.there is less than 2-5GWh of surplus energy available from RE generation, so its likely to be fossil fueled battery power !
(.and Ca continues to import 100+ GWh daily from other States to support internal demand )
 
Hillhater said:
…and consumers statewide had been asked to switch off high demand appliances , which reduced peak demand by 2+ GW !
Click to expand...
You are talking about DR programs like OhmConnect.

When an OhmConnect alert came along, my system started dumping power back into the grid (2600 watts) while increasing the setting on the thermostat by 2 degrees. No "switching off high demand appliances." As a result I made between $6 and $20 an event.
Remember also, those batteries have to be charged from generation sources
Click to expand...
mine are charged from solar.
but for much of the year,.there is less than 2-5GWh of surplus energy available from RE generation
Click to expand...
Onshore wind generation peaks at midnight. That makes up 6 gigawatts of California's total supply.

Solar peaks at noon. Today at noon there were 16GW of solar available; everything else was throttled back to accommodate that, including hydro, which is a renewable resource. Had more people been charging they would have ramped up hydro. They didn't need to, which saved water.
 
Any way you look at it, it worked, and in a bad situation too.

For some reason, people love to bad mouth California. Whether it's out of jealousy or just ignorance, I don't know. But at least California is paying attention to what is going on, and at least is attempting to plan for our future needs.

As to its use of power produced out of state, I'm sure that the out of state providers are happy selling their surplus (at a nice profit) rather than it going to waste. I look at it as CA doing them a favor and not the other way around. Why should CA build more power plants when it knows out of state power will be available? It seems like good planning to me.

It seems obvious to me that more shortages are on their way. This isn't the time to be sticking our heads in the sand and kick the can down the road. The same is true of a lot of other things too...
 
JackFlorey said:
Hillhater said:
…and consumers statewide had been asked to switch off high demand appliances , which reduced peak demand by 2+ GW !
Click to expand...
You are talking about DR programs like OhmConnect.
Click to expand...
No,.. i was refering to the text sent out by State Emergency services asking for emergency power savings…
https://news.caloes.ca.gov/state-officials-sent-cell-phone-alerts-to-protect-public-safety-amidst-ongoing-record-heat-energy-grid-shortfalls/

The following alert was sent via text message through the Wireless Emergency Alerts (WEA) system to cell phone users in targeted counties:

“Conserve energy now to protect public health and safety. Extreme heat is straining the state energy grid. Power interruptions may occur unless you take action. Turn off or reduce nonessential power if health allows, now until 9pm.”
Click to expand...
Im sure you are aware that anything saved by DR programs or generated by RT solar, either fed back to the grid or used on site,..is already accounted for in the demand load on the grid. .?
The text from the Govenors office was an additional “emergency action”

JackFlorey said:
Remember also, those batteries have to be charged from generation sources
Click to expand...
mine are charged from solar.
but for much of the year,.there is less than 2-5GWh of surplus energy available from RE generation
Click to expand...
Onshore wind generation peaks at midnight. That makes up 6 gigawatts of California's total supply.

Solar peaks at noon. Today at noon there were 16GW of solar available; everything else was throttled back to accommodate that, including hydro, which is a renewable resource. Had more people been charging they would have ramped up hydro. They didn't need to, which saved water.
Click to expand...
At midnight Ca is still importing 8 GW and using 10+ GW of Gas generation….in addition to that wind !
A noon, everything else may have been.. “throttled back”,.. but Gas was still generating 10GW, and imports were still being used (1 GW )…
.. Caiso reports less than 1.0 GWh total curtailments for Wind and Solar for the day,..and that has been the same for days !
..so there was no opportunity for recharging those Utility batteries from RE sources. ( other than Hydro..which would be pointless, as they could always use that at the time of peak demand )
Any battery charging would have been from fossil (Gas) generation. !
 
nicobie said:
For some reason, people love to bad mouth California. Whether it's out of jealousy or just ignorance, I don't know. But at least California is paying attention to what is going on, and at least is attempting to plan for our future needs…
Click to expand...
Ca draws attention because promotes itself as a leader in RE generation and the elimination of Fossil Fuels.
But the reality is , for all the investment, advertising and self promotion, they still cannot survive without 50+% Fossil (Gas) generation, and imports from other states which currently have surplus generation.( most likely fossil also !)
They deliberately play down how much the move to RE has already driven up electricity costs, and what the impact of further investment in RE etc will be financially to their consumers.
As to its use of power produced out of state, I'm sure that the out of state providers are happy selling their surplus (at a nice profit) rather than it going to waste. I look at it as CA doing them a favor and not the other way around. Why should CA build more power plants when it knows out of state power will be available? It seems like good planning to me...
Click to expand...
And Maybe those other states have not shut down their fossil & Nuke generators quite as rashly as Ca, seeing a business oportunity to sell power to a desperate state ?
If those other states ever follow Ca to replace fossil generation with more RE, those import oportunities will likely not be available

Bottom line is,.. for Ca to truly be the Green example it pretends to be and be fully RE powered , it will need many multiples of its current Wind and Solar capacity, together with an unimaginable amount of storage make that power available when its needed.
 
Hillhater said:
“Conserve energy now to protect public health and safety. Extreme heat is straining the state energy grid. Power interruptions may occur unless you take action. Turn off or reduce nonessential power if health allows, now until 9pm.”
Click to expand...
That is literally part of a DR program. My system does the same - it is just automated.
At midnight Ca is still importing 8 GW and using 10+ GW of Gas generation….in addition to that wind !
Click to expand...
Yep. And during the day we export. We trade with other states! Who woulda thunk it?
.. Caiso reports less than 1.0 GWh total curtailments for Wind and Solar for the day,..and that has been the same for days !
Click to expand...
?? Do you not understand basic math here?

There was almost no curtailment because they were using those resources for power - INCLUDING RECHARGING ALL THOSE BESS's.
 
JackFlorey said:
Hillhater said:
“Conserve energy now to protect public health and safety. Extreme heat is straining the state energy grid. Power interruptions may occur unless you take action. Turn off or reduce nonessential power if health allows, now until 9pm.”
Click to expand...
That is literally part of a DR program. My system does the same - it is just automated.
Click to expand...
Its a Strange DR program that needs the Governors office to issue an Emergency text ??
At midnight Ca is still importing 8 GW and using 10+ GW of Gas generation….in addition to that wind !
Click to expand...
Yep. And during the day we export. We trade with other states! Who woulda thunk it?
Click to expand...
Check the data jack… at no time in September has Ca’s RE generation managed to meed grid demand, so if there were any exports (none reported), they would have been fossil generated ?
Further , there were constant imports , day and night !
.. Caiso reports less than 1.0 GWh total curtailments for Wind and Solar for the day,..and that has been the same for days !
Click to expand...
?? Do you not understand basic math here?
There was almost no curtailment because they were using those resources for power - INCLUDING RECHARGING ALL THOSE BESS's.
Click to expand...
I figure the math says that if there is not enough RE to meet demand at any point during the day, then if RE is used to recharge the Batteries, it just means more Gas generation is needed in place of that power, to meet grid demand. !
 
Hillhater said:
Bottom line is,.. for Ca to truly be the Green example it pretends to be and be fully RE powered , it will need many multiples of its current Wind and Solar capacity, together with an unimaginable amount of storage make that power available when its needed.
Click to expand...

Yep, And it's a good thing that's what it looks like they are doing.

Why do you think the amount of storage needed is unimaginable? It's easy to calculate the maximum capacity needed.
 
Hillhater said:
I figure the math says that if there is not enough RE to meet demand at any point during the day, then if RE is used to recharge the Batteries, it just means more Gas generation is needed in place of that power, to meet grid demand. !
Click to expand...
By that argument, since there's not enough gas generation to meet demand, it just means more renewables are needed to cover what gas generation cannot provide.
 
JackFlorey said:
Hillhater said:
I figure the math says that if there is not enough RE to meet demand at any point during the day, then if RE is used to recharge the Batteries, it just means more Gas generation is needed in place of that power, to meet grid demand. !
Click to expand...
By that argument, since there's not enough gas generation to meet demand, it just means more renewables are needed to cover what gas generation cannot provide.
Click to expand...
..even my limited maths can estimate how much more gas generation would be needed to cover current peak demand.. roughly double the existing gas generation..26 GW.
..but can you estimate how much more Wind & Solar would be needed to give the same level of reliable power ?

nicobie said:
Why do you think the amount of storage needed is unimaginable? It's easy to calculate the maximum capacity needed.
Click to expand...
…and that maximum storage capacity is ..???
 
nicobie said:
Quit being so silly, from reading your posts over all these years, I know you are smarter that this. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Click to expand...

Having a look at all the data and coming to the exact wrong conclusion isn't a smart person thing to do. Having a look at vested interest disinformation and not being able or willing to distinguish it from factual information isn't a smart person quality, either.

Forrest Gump told us: stupid is as stupid does.
 
Chalo said:
nicobie said:
Quit being so silly, from reading your posts over all these years, I know you are smarter that this. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Click to expand...

Having a look at all the data and coming to the exact wrong conclusion isn't a smart person thing to do. Having a look at vested interest disinformation and not being able or willing to distinguish it from factual information isn't a smart person quality, either.

Forrest Gump told us: stupid is as stupid does.
Click to expand...

That's true.

It's never wise to be stupid or knowingly act stupid either. :mrgreen:
 
nicobie said:
Hillhater said:
…and that maximum storage capacity is ..???
Click to expand...
As if you didn't know... it's what it will take to cover maximum demand at any one time.

Quit being so silly, from reading your posts over all these years, I know you are smarter than this. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Click to expand...
So what is it then ?…
I said it was unimaginable,.. i could guess at a figure, but you said it was easy to calculate ? ..so what is it ! .?
 
nicobie said:
Quit being so silly, from reading your posts over all these years, I know you are smarter than this. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Click to expand...
To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his entire worldview depends on him not understanding it.
 
No. It's my way of avoiding pissing away time looking it up in order to give you correct answer. And I'm not going to take the time to do it either. Just replying to your silly above post is irritating enough. I'm fairly positive you are capable of finding your own answer if you really want to know.
 
Hillhater said:
Is that just your way of avoiding a straight question ?
Click to expand...

A couple articles regarding the Australian power grid crisis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRphfc1QaV0

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/30/what-australias-power-grid-urgently-needs-for-once-in-a-century-transformation-away-from-fossil-fuels
 
nicobie said:
No. It's my way of avoiding pissing away time looking it up in order to give you correct answer…….
Click to expand...
I was replying to Jack actually, ….but you seem to have adopted the same approach.
So its not as easy as you suggested ?…
Let me help you here,…my “imaginable” estimate for a generation system using primarily Wind and Solar, would be somewhere north of 800 -1000 GWh ,
…but even that would not provide the kind of supply reliability that Fossil/ Nuclear generation has provided.!

PaPaSteve said:
A couple articles regarding the Australian power grid crisis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRphfc1QaV0

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/30/what-australias-power-grid-urgently-needs-for-once-in-a-century-transformation-away-from-fossil-fuels
Click to expand...
And there are some very good lessons there also as Australia is a prime example of what happens if there is no option to import electricity.
……And when you choose to ignor the total failure of ALL the installed wind and Solar capacity, whilst blaming shortages on the partial reduction of the coal and gas capacity ! :roll: :roll:
 
Hillhater said:
Let me help you here,…my “imaginable” estimate for a generation system using primarily Wind and Solar, would be somewhere north of 800 -1000 GWh
Click to expand...
If you go to all solar and wind (which no one has proposed) that's about right. The world output of lithium ion batteries right now is around 1000 gwhr/yr. If the US takes 20% of that output, it would take 5 years. If those batteries pass through an EV first it would take 15. Quite doable even if we went to all wind and solar (which no one is planning on.)
 
Hillhater said:
I was replying to Jack actually, ….but you seem to have adopted the same approach.
So its not as easy as you suggested ?…
Let me help you here,…my “imaginable” estimate for a generation system using primarily Wind and Solar, would be somewhere north of 800 -1000 GWh ,
…but even that would not provide the kind of supply reliability that Fossil/ Nuclear generation has provided.!
And there are some very good lessons there also as Australia is a prime example of what happens if there is no option to import electricity.
……And when you choose to ignor the total failure of ALL the installed wind and Solar capacity, whilst blaming shortages on the partial reduction of the coal and gas capacity ! :roll: :roll:
Click to expand...

Actually ... in my polite subtle way, the provided links are to suggest putting some focus on problems in your home town rather then trying to solve problems half a world away.
I have no dogs in this fight because, fortunately, in our small part of the world our ample power supply comes from 98% hydro.
 
JackFlorey said:
Hillhater said:
Let me help you here,…my “imaginable” estimate for a generation system using primarily Wind and Solar, would be somewhere north of 800 -1000 GWh
Click to expand...
If you go to all solar and wind (which no one has proposed) that's about right. The world output of lithium ion batteries right now is around 1000 gwhr/yr. If the US takes 20% of that output, it would take 5 years. If those batteries pass through an EV first it would take 15. Quite doable even if we went to all wind and solar (which no one is planning on.)
Click to expand...

And that's even if we don't finally take President Carter's advice and actually conserve energy for the sake of good stewardship. Or Rev. Malthus's advice and check our more vermin-like behavior.

Mindless swine that we are as a people, I'm sure most of us will wait to conserve energy until we can't afford any of the other options. Me, I'ma beat the crowd on this one.
 
Chalo said:
And that's even if we don't finally take President Carter's advice and actually conserve energy for the sake of good stewardship.
Click to expand...
Right.

There are two factors at play here. One is the slow but steady improvement of energy efficiency. We've gone from coal heat to oil heat to resistive heat to heat pumps - and those heat pumps have been getting more and more efficient. (EER increase over time shown below.)

eer_over_time.JPG

We've gone from whale oil lights to arc lamps to incandescents to CFL's to LED's - again, with massive improvements in efficiency over time.

LED_efficiency.png

And there is more we can do to just plain use less energy overall - using ebikes instead of EV's OR gas cars, for example, or moving places where it's possible to live without A/C.

The second factor, opposing that, is that we are going to need more energy over time just to deal with increasing temperatures. Climates where people did not need A/C are becoming climates where it is essential; climates where A/C was already essential are becoming deadly without. That's going to drive energy usage up. At the same time increasing temperatures will reduce hydro generation during high load times, reducing generation.

It's going to be a balancing act. Of course the worst possible thing we could do is say "frock it, just burn more coal" - because that will drive temperatures (and consumption) up even faster.
 
PaPaSteve said:
Actually ... in my polite subtle way, the provided links are to suggest putting some focus on problems in your home town rather then trying to solve problems half a world away.
Click to expand...
Have no concern, I am more than a little aware of the issues Australia has created for itself , as well as the UK and Germany in particular,… and the future situation likely to result.

PaPaSteve said:
…..I have no dogs in this fight because, fortunately, in our small part of the world our ample power supply comes from 98% hydro.
Click to expand...

….but,..ironic comment from someone who doesnt appear to know where his own states power comes from. !
..FYI, Oregon power seems to use less than 40% hydro, with gas and a significant amount of coal in the game also when you include imported electricity :shock:
…however, you are “fortunate” in that you have very little dependency on Wind or Solar :bigthumb:
But what will Oregon do if coal and gas become fossil paharia’s ?
https://www.oregon.gov/energy/energy-oregon/pages/electricity-mix-in-oregon.aspx
 
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