what is the size ratio of li-ion vs LiFePO4

sharinginfos

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yes lion is more compact bwt id like to have an idea of similar capacity battery how big and heavy are they?

Are lifepo4 just bigger are they are aslo heavier?

thank you

example images picture will be appreciate
 
sharinginfos said:
yes lion is more compact bwt id like to have an idea of similar capacity battery how big and heavy are they?

Are lifepo4 just bigger are they are aslo heavier?

Yes, but not always. Power dense LiCo, NMC, NCA etc. are likely to be as big and heavy as LiFePO4 for the same capacity. But they can also be about half the size and weight if they're energy dense but not power dense.

Maybe be more specific about the capacity you're looking for and the amp load or C rate you need for discharge.
 
here is a picture between a 10ah lifepo4 and a 31ah lifepo4. Both take up about the same space and weigh about the same. They are recycled cells, new cells would be about 15ah for lifepo4 and 41ah for the li-ion.

comparism lithium.jpg
 
2:1 or even 3:1

My 205wH/kG, NMC, Lithium polymer, power dense, pack is about 1/2-1/3 the size of a lifepo battery of the same watt hours.
 
Chalo said:
Power dense LiCo, NMC, NCA etc. are likely to be as big and heavy as

I sincerely disagree. From my experience.
 
DogDipstick said:
Chalo said:
Power dense LiCo, NMC, NCA etc. are likely to be as big and heavy as

I sincerely disagree. From my experience.

Okay then, disagree if you want. But here's an example I have a few of:
https://batteryhookup.com/products/samsung-12s-43-2v-8-5ah-367-2wh-lithium-ion

After having stripped all the extraneous housing and electronics from the cell pack (including relay, fuse, and bus bars), I found that the claimed dimensions and weight were correct: 11x7x3 inches and 12-1/3 pounds. That's for a nominal 367 watt-hours, yielding just under 30 Wh/lb.

Here's another one I got a few of:
https://batteryhookup.com/products/40x-panasonic-48v-13s-6-4a-299-99wh-12kwh-11

300 Wh and 8 lbs (which I have not verified in this case) yields 37.5 Wh/lb.

From the same vendor, I've also gotten modules full of these cells:
https://a123batteries.com/anr26650m1-b-lithiumwerks-nanophosphate-3-3v-2-5ah-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery/

I don't have data on the modules, but the cells have about 50 Wh/lb, so even in their packaging they have better energy density than the Li-ion modules I linked above.

The first battery I built, more than five years ago, was this NMC one:

IMG_20180925_222103.jpg

It's 26 lbs in its cloth bag, and nominally about 1.2 kWh, for about 45 Wh/lb.

So that's my experience. Several examples of Li-ion battery packs in my own possession that have similar or lower energy density than typical LiFePO4 packs. They have other virtues including power density, longevity, build quality, uniformity, and low cost that offset their relatively low energy density.
 
My 26 lb NMC-LMO pack on my bike is 1800wH nominal. New cells. 0 cycles. 205wH/kG cell (92wH/Lb). Circa 2019 cell.

Chalo said:
Okay then, disagree if you want. But here's an example I have a few of:
https://batteryhookup.com/products/samsung-12s-43-2v-8-5ah-367-2wh-lithium-ion

They have other virtues including power density, longevity, build quality, uniformity, and low cost that offset their relatively low energy density.




[/quote]

You base your experiences.... on buying a used.... no known history... and secondhand... pack from a used battery seller? Whom is known for some times selling .... low capacity, degraaded, or poor performance cells?

I was basing my experiences on new, top of the line, full capacity, 0 cycle, modern hybrid EV cells, purchased from the manufacturer.

Yes uniformity, power, and cost, matter. Build quality. longevity especially. I expect 40,000 cycles to 50% DOD in the span of my packs life.


From one battery hobbyist to another: Congruence in statement, based on a known standard... You have to start with new cells if you want to make an accurate ( good) statement of the baseline capacity vs volumes. Densities. When it comes, to the performances, of a certain cells, architecture, to the intended application.

Sure BHU is great... 80% of the time. The other 20% of the time is return for replacement. Well known in the hobby community, for Tom will stand by his sales... but.... You cannot base an assertion of the densities of a cell on the fact that you bought used cells, and of that which I am making, I bought new.

Once I complained online about the condition of some cell that Tom sold... and to get me to stop talking shit on his wares he sent me a 300$ box (bribe of batteries to shut up.. er to.... Try out for my own purpose and give a positive buyer review... Lol.. ) .

Lol. I'll leave it at that. By the way.. you r links are broken. 404 NOT FOUND.

I was basing my experiences on new, top of the line, full capacity, 0 cycle, modern hybrid EV cells, purchased from the manufacturer.

I probally have 10+ (brand new, various capacity cells), for testing, from SK and LG and A123, in the shop, lab, garage... Julian dated 2022... sent to me by other hobbyist, from all over the world, for dataloggin. Portrayed this quality. 2:1 or even 3:1 ration, in size ( volume, as in liters) from LiFePo4,... to a NMC power dense cell.

NOT a 1:1 ration (in volume).

Yes. I want to disagree. I do. Want to.
 
DogDipstick said:
You base your experiences.... on buying a used.... no known history... and secondhand... pack from a used battery seller? Whom is known for some times selling .... low capacity, degraaded, or poor performance cells?

I was basing my experiences on new, top of the line, full capacity, 0 cycle, modern hybrid EV cells, purchased from the manufacturer.

I made my comparisons on manufacturer specs, because I don't measure my packs' capacities. So, at least the manufacturers agree with me about their energy densities.

Your pack might have awesome energy density that exceeds that of any LiFePO4 packs, but it isn't representative of all NMC packs. I've already shown you examples where LFP is more energy dense than NMC. So your blanket generalization is incorrect. LiCo, NMC, NCA cells are not all energy denser than LFP. Only some of them are.
 
It sounds like OP is deciding which chemistry to use, and he has a frame with a given amount of space in the Triangle.

LiFePO4 is known to be more fire-safe, so that is desirable, but...for a given range (watt-hours, etc) the LiFePO4 is sometimes bigger in volume. But, how much bigger?

Its not a simple question. The answer is "it depends"

Lithium-Ion cells of the NCM/NCA chemistries can be found in the 18650, 21700, and flat pouch formats.

For LiFePO4, there are not a lot of choices. My first question is "do you need high amps"? A while back, I checked on Ping, and he was still selling LiFePO4, but I don't know if the peak amps have improved.

Unless you are making a very large order, the cell factories won't even talk to you about a custom size. If you get someone to make a custom-size cell, it will be expensive.

The only way to make a fair comparison is to list LiFePO4 cells that are in production and can actually be bought.

I recall LiFePO4 batteries at 12V were popular for small piston aircraft, and I suspect many sailboats along with RVs would have a backup power bank using these, and fed by solar panels.
 
Yes on boats and RV / other land camping vehicles, LFP is commonly used for House banks, in some cases 15+ years full-time now without losing hardly any capacity.

These are not called "backup" banks, that is for stationary home use, these are mobile and mostly designed for being used away from any grid connections, recharged by special alternator rigs, dedicated gensets and of course often solar to some extent.

Not just 12/24V but some high-power use cases like feeding bow thrusters / windlass / winch / aircon, or where long wiring runs get too heavy, some go up to 48V

Very very few have implemented LTO, safe, low temp, and very high C-rates but definitely takes up more space.

Li-ion cells like NCM/NCA are ruled out by anyone with a clue, low lifespan and high fire risk, very likely insurance would not cover.
 
quick comparation Li-Ion vs LifePo4

Price(battery built): lion less 2-3times than LiFe
Volume: li-ion less 2-3times than LiFe
Cycles: LiFe x4-5 greater than Liion
Safety: li-ion -stable but dangerous. LiFe batteries can overheat, are +safe than lion. but also could go on fire.both dangerous
LiFePo4 discharge current: Many and super fast charge, check A123 10min charge
 
sharinginfos said:
yes lion is more compact bwt id like to have an idea of similar capacity battery how big and heavy are they?

Are lifepo4 just bigger are they are aslo heavier?

So if you were capable of putting side-by-side an equal Lithium-ion pack to an equatable LiFePO4 pack (say both 1 Kilowatt, similar discharge rates), the iron-phosphate would be bigger and heavier- this is because LiFePO4 has 60-70% the energy density of the Lithium-ions has a naturally lower voltage potential (requiring more cells to do the same thing) and finally, because it uses Iron in it's chemistry is heavier on a molecular level. Now how much more compact? Hard to say, but a 52v Lithium-ION battery requires 14 cells in series and the LiFePO4 requires 16. On top of that you may be using a high power (aka long life, 3000mah per cell plus) Lithium-ion cell, and to make up the difference in range you may need more Iron phosphates in parallel, making your battery bigger.

That SOUNDS like a bum tradeoff... except LiFePO4s now have 2-3 times the lifespan of Lithium Ions in homemade packs (OEM packs are easily 4 times the lifespan), have MUCH higher discharge rates, have lower internal resistances, and thus don't generate much heat from high-drain uses. They also have stability on the molecular level which we see by their resistance to fire and oxidation. Everything is very you're mileage may vary but in the years of study on here, I'm getting into the opinion that if you can't salvage out OEM Car EV packs like Dogdipstick or Chalo for your build, that it's best for us to go lithium-irons.

DogDipstick said:
My 26 lb NMC-LMO pack on my bike is 1800wH nominal. New cells. 0 cycles. 205wH/kG cell (92wH/Lb). Circa 2019 cell.

Chalo said:
They have other virtues including power density, longevity, build quality, uniformity, and low cost that offset their relatively low energy density.

You base your experiences.... on buying a used.... no known history... and secondhand... pack from a used battery seller? Whom is known for some times selling .... low capacity, degraaded, or poor performance cells?

My brothers, I love you both and you both have provided me with a massive body of knowledge- and I'll be messaging you both for help for years to come.

But please, don't forget that most of us aren't pushing cars with these things, and that pouch cells are kinda spooky when they're shorted or when you've never worked on em! I do agree that Batteryhookup can be a little eh in potential quality, but someone like me using a power or backup cell to run a 20-amp max front hub motor is probably not gonna see many issues from degradation :lol:
 
john61ct said:
Li-ion cells like NCM/NCA are ruled out by anyone with a clue, low lifespan and high fire risk, very likely insurance would not cover.

Hillhater said:
Hmm ?,… a bit to much of a generalisation.
Musk / Strubel would likely argue otherwise

LFP Battery In Your Next EV? Tesla and Others Say Yes.
"Tesla announced in October 2021 that it was switching to LFP batteries for its standard range models, both Model 3 and Model Y. The reason it kept the cobalt batteries for the Long Range trims is because of the lower energy density of LFP configurations – in order to get performance or very long range, you need a larger LFP battery."
www.recurrentauto.com/research/lfp-battery-in-your-next-ev-tesla-and-others-say-yes
 
Hillhater said:
john61ct said:
Li-ion cells like NCM/NCA are ruled out by anyone with a clue, low lifespan and high fire risk, very likely insurance would not cover.
Hmm ?,… a bit to much of a generalisation.
Musk / Strubel would likely argue otherwise
My apologies, I forgot where I was.

My comments were for energy STORAGE context in mobile dwellings, not propulsion.

Li-ion cells in the 3.6-3.7Vnom range are the default mainstream choice for propulsion, because of the higher density.

Tesla's choice to revert to the use of LFP in some markets was a big surprise
 
john61ct said:
Tesla's choice to revert to the use of LFP in some markets was a big surprise.
"Iron-based cells are finally starting to win global appeal at a time when nickel is blighted by supply concerns due to major producer Russia's war in Ukraine and cobalt is tainted by reports of dangerous conditions at artisanal mines in Democratic Republic of Congo."

CATL (300750.SZ ... https://www.reuters.com/markets/companies/300750.SZ/) is the world's largest supplier of EV batteries and provides the LFP cells used by Tesla and now Ford. Beginning in 2023, some portion of Mustang Mach-E will use LFP while F-150 Lightnings with iron phosphate will start rolling off the line in early 2024.

LFP cells also contain more lithium than NCM rivals, and industry experts raise concerns that iron-based batteries' historic advantage of being cheaper to produce could be eroded and even erased by rising costs of the metal.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ev-battery-makers-race-develop-cheaper-cell-materials-skirting-china-2022-11-15/ ... using sodium and sulfur ...

"Asian battery giants are also working on new chemistries. China's CATL (300750.SZ) has said it plans to begin producing sodium ion cells in 2023. Korea's LG Energy Solution (373220.KS) aims to start making lithium sulfur cells by 2025."
 
eMark said:
"Tesla announced in October 2021 that it was switching to LFP batteries for its standard range models, both Model 3 and Model Y. The reason it kept the cobalt batteries for the Long Range trims is because of the lower energy density of LFP configurations – in order to get performance or very long range, you need a larger LFP battery."
www.recurrentauto.com/research/lfp-battery-in-your-next-ev-tesla-and-others-say-yes
More precisely, ..the reason they are switching to LFP in standard models is simply LOWER COST. !
 
Hillhater said:
More precisely, ..the reason they are switching to LFP in standard models is simply LOWER COST. !

Sure, that's why businesses do things. But the benefits to the buyer include improved fire safety and increased pack life. And not having the blood of Congolese slave children on your hands.

The latter is a major factor in why I use salvaged EV batteries.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths
 
Chalo said:
Hillhater said:
More precisely, ..the reason they are switching to LFP in standard models is simply LOWER COST. !

Sure, that's why businesses do things. But the benefits to the buyer include improved fire safety and increased pack life. And not having the blood of Congolese slave children on your hands.

The latter is a major factor in why I use salvaged EV batteries.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths
Chocolate too?
 
tomjasz said:
Chalo said:
Hillhater said:
More precisely, ..the reason they are switching to LFP in standard models is simply LOWER COST. !

Sure, that's why businesses do things. But the benefits to the buyer include improved fire safety and increased pack life. And not having the blood of Congolese slave children on your hands.

The latter is a major factor in why I use salvaged EV batteries.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths
Chocolate too?
What is your problem (stuck in your craw) by seemingly making jest of a contributing ES member? Is it because he may not always agree with you? Get over it and stop posting jibberish as if you have an axe to grind ("Chocolate too?") or is that just your wry sense of Minne-nice humor? :wink:

More than a few Common Sense efabricators have made good use of salvaged cells for worthwhile EV battery appllication(s). It's only those that don't know what they're doing that may later regret using salvaged cells (e.g. VOLT cells or Battery Hookup or Battery Clearing House).
 
eMark said:
tomjasz said:
Chocolate too?
What is your problem (stuck in your craw) by seemingly making jest of a contributing ES member? Is it because he may not always agree with you? Get over it and stop posting jibberish as if you have an axe to grind ("Chocolate too?") or is that just your wry sense of Minne-nice humor? :wink:

More than a few Common Sense efabricators have made good use of salvaged cells for worthwhile EV battery appllication(s). It's only those that don't know what they're doing that may later regret using salvaged cells (e.g. VOLT cells or Battery Hookup or Battery Clearing House).

He just meant that slavery conditions are also endemic to the mainstream trade in that commodity.

I have no idea what you thought he meant that triggered all that ranting.


 
john61ct said:
He just meant that slavery conditions are also endemic to the mainstream trade in that commodity.

I have no idea what you thought he meant that triggered all that ranting.
Thanks, john61ct, I'm still trying to comprehend the rant...

Marke must be having a bad day. BTW if I was making fun of Chalo he sure wouldn't need any help setting me straight. Marke has gone off on me before now that I think about it. Silly stuff too. Like "If your avatar was more professional (like ebuilder)" In that context, I suggested EM3ev over UPP

And yes cocoa plantations are often ugly places too.

Mars, Nestlé and Hershey to face child slavery lawsuit in US

Chocolate companies are among the defendants named in a lawsuit brought by former child workers in Ivory Coast
Ivory Coast produces about 45% of the world’s cocoa.

Supported by
Humanity United

Eight children who claim they were used as slave labour on cocoa plantations in Ivory Coast have launched legal action against the world’s biggest chocolate companies. They accuse the corporations of aiding and abetting the illegal enslavement of “thousands” of children on cocoa farms in their supply chains.
 
My bench 2014-2015 salvage batteries.


eMark said:
tomjasz said:
Chalo said:
Hillhater said:
More precisely, ..the reason they are switching to LFP in standard models is simply LOWER COST. !

Sure, that's why businesses do things. But the benefits to the buyer include improved fire safety and increased pack life. And not having the blood of Congolese slave children on your hands.

The latter is a major factor in why I use salvaged EV batteries.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths
Chocolate too?
What is your problem (stuck in your craw) by seemingly making jest of a contributing ES member? Is it because he may not always agree with you? Get over it and stop posting jibberish as if you have an axe to grind ("Chocolate too?") or is that just your wry sense of Minne-nice humor? :wink:

More than a few Common Sense efabricators have made good use of salvaged cells for worthwhile EV battery appllication(s). It's only those that don't know what they're doing that may later regret using salvaged cells (e.g. VOLT cells or Battery Hookup or Battery Clearing House).
 

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Thought at first he was saying in so many words ... "that's the way the world turns" (slave labor) and little if anything can be done to stop it.

Why would cocoa harvesting (chocolate) using child slave labor have anything to do with Chalo's reason for using salavaged Li-ion cells ???

Apologize for what seemed like a "rant" considering some (Tom?) apparently think cocoa harvesting is also just reason for using salvaged Li-ion cells. Wasn't aware that cocoa byproducts (shells?) have found a useful purpose in the production & distribution (packaging?) of some EV cells.
tomjasz said:
Chocolate too?
His reply "chocolate too?" (and J's informative followup) wasn't any more necessary than my rant (my apology). Oh, well, heading home from McDs on my EV (Li-ion battery its 35 F) to have a cup of Hot Cocoa with a Chocolate Chip Cookie ... :thumb:


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