Battery Fire Research Thread

EVGator

10 mW
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
32
Location
Hawthorne, CA
Hello friends!
I am researching battery fire incidents and know that many in the ES community have experience and knowledge in this field.
Battery fires are statistically rare events, but are trending upwards as the adoption of personal electric vehicles increases. Cheap components that are not bound to strict safety standards/testing and lack of education seem to be driving the incidents that I have looked into so far. NYC has reported almost 200 electric vehicle battery fires this year alone and are considering laws to restrict where you can store and charge personal electric vehicles. I love PEVs, they make me very happy and I recognize the value that they have for commuting. I'd like to dedicate more time to understanding what combination of solutions could work to solve this problem, so that we don't lose the freedoms that we have to encroaching legislation. Maybe more legislation is needed? Spending more money on quality components sounds like the answer to a lot of problems, but people are clearly not doing that.

If you'd like to share a thermal event experience that you or someone that you know has had, I'm curious about the following:
(Close calls are interesting to hear about as well. Maybe you prevented a thermal event?)

-What happened
-What type of vehicle
-Battery details: format, energy storage, voltage, Ah, chemistry
-Was the battery purchased from a manufacturer or DIY
-Were you charging when this event happened?
-Did you notice anything before the event? Hot to the touch? Smoke coming out?
-How did you find out that your battery was on fire? Or was it after the fact?
-Do you have any temperature data?
-What do you believe caused the event: overcharge, over-discharge, physical damage, short circuit, etc.?
-Would you like to share any safety tips/things you learned related to the situation?

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to contribute to this thread.
 
A worthwhile thing to research on.
There are several topics here about battery fires. The forum search function is pretty crude, but if you search you can find some. Links to those threads could be posted here and the answers to your questions could be summarized for each event.
 
EVGator,

You can use Google to Search on any one web site. For that trick, you will need the SITE: command.

On the usual Google search line, put in your keywords. Add the SITE command, followed by the URL of the one web site you want to search. No space between the SITE: command and the URL. For this site, it would look like the following -
keyword keyword SITE:https://endless-sphere.com
That should do it. Other sites may also get searched, but the endless-sphere entries will be first in the list of results you get.
Happy hunting.
 
Some threads referencing fires here on ES; not all are relevant but most are:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=fire*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
 
Chris, from Propel in NYC, as a new YT out on this. https://youtu.be/k4wQu698M08
The Insurance folks are getting up on it faster than the FD folks and legislators.
Hard rain gonna fall
 
EVGator said:
legislation is needed?

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to contribute to this thread.

In 1912, a committee of the American Electrochemical Society recommended Standard methods to be used in testing dry cells. Their recommendations were followed five years later when the National Bureau of Standards prepared specifications that included cell sizes, the arrangement of cells within batteries, service tests, and required performance.

Lithium ion is still the most widely used type of battery in the world, number wise. Cant be that dangerous. Maybe its all hype.

I can. If you would like. Go smack some cells under a controlled condition.. With temperature, current and voltage, other types of abuse. You dont see alot of that, honestly. From the hobby crowd... Most statistical fires are flukes, and the persons involved are not technical enough to know what happened. Was it the hardware? Causing malfunction or damage? Quality control? Design flaw? User error? Assembly error? Source material fault?


I have thought about controlled destruction tests to find out how flammable the cells i use really are. Certainly. Drag behind a four wheeler on youtube style. I have never had any issues except for heating a cell up a time or two, here or there. High current discharges. Will heat up cells.

Basically the smart people know....what, is gonna happen, when,.... and the dumb people,... just rant and rave about fast shiny things.

Endlessly.

You just have to come to terms..... with which type of person you are.


Here is a good read. For a layman in the field of batteries, and their design. Such as I am.
https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/High%20Energy%20Density%20Batteries_Status%20Memo_FY20_1-6bCleared-04012020.pdf?Qj4t_otWKfBZYLpvu4l6sUvx9ZJfFc4f

I sure wish engineering standards were free. Such as UL 2272. I would be reading them for fun.

https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/40/2016/09/10256-Hoverboard-WhitePaper-FINAL.pdf

https://www.cpsc.gov/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Voluntary-Standards/Topics/Batteries
 

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I think the durability, and reliability, of the electronic assembly, .. is directly dependent on the testing machine, and statistical result of, that which the electrical engineer designs.. to test his product.

Very rare to see any such practice in the hobby world. In the hobby world, we mostly " dont know what happened"...
 
Being your interest is more about EV (pouch/prism) batteries and LFP batteries (as opposed to ebike 18650/21700 cylindrical cell batteries) you might want to post on E-Vehicles General Discussion or Large EV General Discussion.

As far as ebike li-ion batteries (whether DIY or commercial) it's either accidently overcharging the battery pack or a direct neg/pos short that could lead to an explosion unless the busbar, wire (or fuse) is quickly fried (disabled).
 
eMark said:
Being your interest is more about...

Safety. My interests lie in safety, and I do own a K-Weld, and do do tool pack refurbishment. However, yes sir you read about issues / incidents with DeWalt batteries left on the charger.. etc.

I wish I could read the txt contained wherein. Again: I will say: I wish engineering standards were free.

I implore: if anyone has a copy of one of these standards, I would love to see it .

• ANSI/UL 2271 – Light EV Batteries
• ANSI/UL 2580 – EV Batteries
• ANSI/UL 2272 – Electrical Systems for Personal e-Mobility Devices
• UL 2849* – e-Bikes, e-Scooters, e-Motorcycle
• UL 3030* – UAVs / Drones
 
How do users overcharge a battery? Im on thevside if carelessness and cheap Chinese BMS and under rated nickel coated steel ribbons. Add stupidity and boom!
 
EVGator said:
-What happened

Heres a little bit of a zinger.


US Border and Customs Protection.... once cut open a cell that I was to receive from a friend in Vietnam, for testing purposes. Wanted me to datalog a few, see what he got. One cell arrived fine, in its box, no damage... and one cell.... arrived on my front porch, in a torn up box, cut open, and wrapped with green security tape.... " EXAMINED" printed all over it... with the box, the cell mailing holder, and the cell itself all cut open in the search for contraband.

Straight up cut a large pouch cell capable of 350A continuous open. Inspected, found no contraband, apparently, wrapped it up, with green security tape, and sent her on her way.

Stinks like all heaven and hell together. Lol. You can look directly into the cell itself. Looks like layers of bandages. Stinkystinky. It is still holding voltage, when measured on its tabs. I might just capacity test it. IR test it.... output test it. I mean, that is why it was sent to me. Lol. Might as well, right? Needless to say, it is currently living inside a cement mixer barrel,100 feet deep, in my scrap pile, surrounded by trash tractors and engine blocks. old motorcycle frames... Far away from any building. Imma just gonna leave it there until I figure out what to do with it.

Not a lick of fire. Not smoldering, not blackened, not a bit of carbon. Just stinky. You can see the production date on the cell. It is a late 2021, 53ah, SK energy cell. 6C contin.

I bet this was a fun day at the office. The package had come through LAX, and did include a customs form, that clearly disclosed its contents. My friend, who sent it to me, laughed when I told him. Said " Well, guess it passed the puncture tests! Hahaha".


It still holds voltage. Big hole in the corner.
 

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That is a wild story. And here we all are, worried about padding our packs and protecting cells from vibration and heat and cold…

… and customs takes a pen knife to that pouch cell with no problem. Anyone else flashing back to one of a hundred YouTube videos of someone driving a nail through a Turnigy pack to let out the magic smoke?
 
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