Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect them

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Re: AMPEASEL III testing NHW10-03 Part 2

Post by Mr. Mik » Jul 07 2010 2:25am

Continuing the individual Stick test AMPEASEL III routine on the NHW10-03 battery:

Below are the graphs for the best stick S17 and the worst stick S35:
Image
Image
S35 has both the lowest Wh value, highest IR and lowest Ah value, but it does still cope with the AMPEASEL III test, and the Ah capacity is roughly 95% of the Ah capacity of the best stick! It's the worst stick in the pack, but definitely not dead!

Here are the graphs for the other 4 sticks which are slightly weaker than the rest of the pack:

S34:
Image
S31:
Image
S30:
Image
S27:
Image

The remaining vast majority of sticks are very similar to the good ones shown in the post above, sticks 1 to 9.

My impression is that the best stick is insignificantly better than the bulk of the sticks in this overall good battery, while the worst stick is bordering on being an outlier - but an outlier that is still coping at this stage.

Do you think it is worth the effort to replace the weakest stick(s) out of this battery?

Unless someone has experience showing that this will be a problem, I would tend to leave the battery untouched for now and use it. I might have another look in a year or more, or whenever the battery "plays up" - it should then show if the weak sticks have deteriorated to a more severe degree than the others.
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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by Mr. Mik » Jul 08 2010 3:16am

I learned something new today: How to use a spreadsheet program (at least a little bit!).

Below is the result, an overlay of the voltage vs time discharge curves of the 6 best and the 5 worst sticks in the NHW10-03 battery. The program cannot handle all 40 sticks.....pffff...

Imagine the remaining 29 good sticks squeezed into the small gap between the groups of 5 and 6 graphs, and you will be able to see that stick S35 is indeed an outlier.

Seeing it like this makes it more tempting to replace S35!

Maybe I'll spend some more time with the spreadsheet program and work out how to calculate the area under the curve, V x I etc to get Ah values and Wh values! But that is really not a priority at the moment.

Image

I'll try to determine exactly how impared the S35 is, by running a "AMPEASEL IV" test procedure on the two worst sticks and two good sticks.

AMPEASEL IV will consist of repeated 100A bursts on top of 30A base load spread across the entire SOC range. See http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/168737-post85.html for more detail.
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Testing NHW10-03 Part 3 - conclusion

Post by Mr. Mik » Jul 16 2010 5:36am

I learned some more spreadsheet basics and this has shifted my final assessment to "replace the worst stick" in NHW10-03.

Now I can make graphs showing Amp, Watt, Volt from the same data set gained during the AMPEASEL test.

Here is an overlay: Three ways to compare the same two sticks being discharged:
Image

I can also use the spreadsheet program to "calibrate" the PoScope data. Unfortunately the PoScope lacks a calibration feature (or I, and the technical support guy, have not found it yet).

For example: (X + 0.018 ) x 1000 gives me calibrated current in amps (with the mV measurements across the shunt as the X value)

I can also add up all the current and voltage measurements every 0.6s - that gives the Wh which have been discharged.

And the ampere/0.6s can be added up to give an accurate Ah value for the discharge (just divide it by 6000).

The result of it all is this:

Stick 35 is significantly worse than the second-worst stick. It is very interesting to look at the Ah and Wh results. The Wh results are more dramatic, because they include both (reduced) capacity and (increased) internal resistance in the result.

If one was using a constant current discharge device, then this might not matter. But with a resistive load these calculations are very important to get the full picture.


After two weeks of self-discharge:

The best stick S17 had 5.34Ah and 34.55Wh.

The worst stick S35 had 4.96Ah ( = 7.1% less than best) and 30.42Wh. (= 11.95% less than best)

The second-worst stick S31 had 5.1Ah (5% less than best)and 31.89 Wh ( =7.7 % less than best).

S 35 had 2.6% less Ah than S31.

S35 had 4.6% less Wh than S31.
And that is what made me change my mind.

Being almost 5% behind the second-worst stick (Wh) is a clear indicator that S35 is indeed an outlier. S35 would in my opinion fail much much earlier than the rest of the pack, if it continued to be used in this pack. S35 will last much longer in pack matched to it's IR.

I have replaced S35 with a stick from another battery, it appears slightly better than the best sticks in NHW10-03 on an AMPEASEL IV test.

The test looks like this:


S35 (weakest stick of the whole battery):
Image

S36 (good one):
Image


If this test is done after a few weeks for self-discharge testing, it test all the major parameters of battery performance across the whole SOC spectrum.

But, it has not added anything that the earlier AMPEASEL test has told me (the one with 30A-100A-60A-30A sequence). But it requires more operator attention and input.
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Re: Testing NHW10-03 Part 3 - conclusion

Post by Mr. Mik » Jul 17 2010 5:24pm

Accidental double posting deleted.
Last edited by Mr. Mik on Jul 22 2010 4:41am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by paulmanta » Jul 19 2010 6:17am

I've just posted in the 'wants' section for a stick of the cells these batteries contain...

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =8&t=19973

Any ideas ?

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Scanner error codes

Post by Mr. Mik » Jul 24 2010 12:44am

Error Codes which can be read with some scanners (like the Carman Scan Lite and Toyota S2000).
PriusCodes1.pdf
(2.19 MiB) Downloaded 561 times
I think I found this in one of the Prius forums.
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Battery too damaged for EQ charge alone

Post by Mr. Mik » Aug 08 2010 4:52am

Here are the results from testing the NHW10-06 battery which came with one of the cars I bought. It is an example for a battery that is too damaged to be pampered along with EQ charging.

Initially I just applied a single EQ charge with the battery in the car, but after just 4 days the frequent turtles returned.

A few weeks later I did 5 complete EQ charges and 4 discharge cycles to exercise the battery, also with the battery still in the car.

That had a slightly more lasting effect, but after 10 days the turtles were back, accompanied by frequent Battery Low Point Resets (BaLPoR = sudden drop of displayed battery charge level to low, together with turtle, and followed by charging of the battery to near full display.)

The fourth of the discharges (at about 7A) looked like this:
Image
Red: Volts x 100
Blue: Ampere x 3
The first three discharges looked very similar - they were all done just after charging. I still do not know if a single cell dropping to zero Volt would show up in the discharge graph of a 240s string.

After three weeks I removed the battery from the car and gave it an EQ charge in the garage, using the SFreddy charger for 13h:15min. In retrospect, that might have been a bit too short because of the severely increased self-discharge rate of some cells. The cells with the highest self-discharge rate might have been empty at the start of this EQ charge and might not have filled up to 100% SOC. But it does not matter much - the good cells were definitively full and no good sticks would have been misdiagnosed in the following tests.

After two weeks of resting at about 18degC on the garage floor, I removed the half-packs from the battery and tested each stick with the AMPEASEL III procedure.

AMPEASEL III = 45s at 30A-32A; then 15s at ~90A - 100A; then 30A - 32A until 5.5V cutoff.

Excel does not seem to be able to handle showing all 40 graphs at once, so I grouped them into three overlays. (I forgot to save the data for Stick 34. It falls into the "Medium" category).

The Worst Sticks out of NHW10-06:

Image

The Medium Sticks out of NHW10-06:
Image


The Best Sticks out of NHW10-06:
Image


Now I have some sticks with definite problems and may be able to figure out how they could be detected without lengthy testing!
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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by Mr. Mik » Sep 03 2010 6:45pm

I added a link to nice measurements of the PTC strip performance to the above post https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 64#p189795

The addition:

Mike Dabrowski has done much more accurate measurements, the results can be seen here (in degF): http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/downloa ... ance-2.pdf and are explained here: http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/mo ... post172411
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Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - Fuses for tab wires

Post by Mr. Mik » Sep 11 2010 7:22pm

The end plates on one side of each half-pack (HP) have 11 tab wires coming out.

These seem to be fused by 11 built-in fuses. They can stand 3.6A for a few second - but I don't know what their proper specifications are.

The 11 fuses can be seen in this photo:Image

I'll try to find a better picture later on.
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Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - Techno S2000 Scanner

Post by Mr. Mik » Dec 20 2010 8:40am

The Techno S2000 scanner is the only scanner that can perform all necessary operations on a NHW10 Prius if the NHW10 data disk is inserted into the S2000.

Quite a few S2000, some with the NHW10 data disk, have recently been bought by private NHW10 owners. It seems like Toyota Japan is selling off the S2000, maybe they have a new device to replace them now.

The display of a typical S2000 is in Japanese. This can be a challenge, because the menu structure/content is complex. The S2000 includes DMM and oscilloscope functions as well; try to imagine figuring that out in Japanese....

Well, that's what this post is about. Much of the translation work has already been done, but there is more to be done. Many thanks go to a small group of NHW10 and S2000 owners in England, Australia and New Zealand, who have helped greatly to work out how the S2000 works and how the menus translate.

Some scanners, like the Carman Scan lite, can do most, but not all functions of the S2000, notably excluding the C2579 reset (="Uniform Charge Request").

Attached are two files with incorrect file extensions. For the first one the extension needs to be changed from .pdf to .mmp in order to work (this gets it past the forum software.) It is a "MindMan Personal" file showing the menu structure of the S2000(NHW10) in English.

The other attached file is also misnamed to get it past the forum software: Replace the .pdf with .exe and you will have a working installer program that will install the MindMan Freeware on your computer. This allows you to view the other file, the mindmap showing the English S2000 menu structure.

Newer versions of Mindmanager software are MUCH more sophisticated and capable, but they cost a packet. Using this very old and basic freeware version will allow anyone to contribute to developing the S2000 English map further.

I hope to soon publish a S2000 Menu map which can be viewed with a free viewer software application. It will be much more user-friendly than the MindMan Personal map, but it will not be editable by anyone without the full software version. It's similar to Adobe Acrobat (expensive, creates files) and Adobe Reader (free and read only).
Attachments
Techno S2000 ENGLISH 1.6 2010-12-20.pdf
Rename this to Techno S2000 English 1.6 2010-12-20.mmp
(126.43 KiB) Downloaded 223 times
mmpersonal30-2e.pdf
Rename this to mmpersonal30-2e.exe
(870.82 KiB) Downloaded 175 times
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Prius NHW10 Techno S2000 Scanner English Translation

Post by Mr. Mik » Dec 21 2010 8:48am

Hi everyone,

I have made a more functional Mindmap which can be opened with the free viewer software downloadable from here: http://www.issusa.com/page5753554.aspx

Once you have installed it, you will be able to open the attached Mindmap file and navigate it much more efficiently than the MindMan Personal freeware file. Unfortunately, you will have only "Read" access with the viewer program.

The map can be expanded branch by branch by clicking on the + symbols at the end of branches; or, using ALT&SHIFT&2, ALT&SHIFT&3 all the way to ALT&SHIFT&A(for All), you can open defined levels of depth of the map.

The map also allow inclusion of Kanji and Katakana symbols.

And some PDF files (from the NHW10 Yahoo group) are included for easy reference to what the codes mean.

Text boxes contain additional information or speculation about what some of the menu items might be for/about.

xxxxxxxx means any Japanese symbols, one per x. I used xxx for everything in the beginning, and I think there are parts left where the Katakana symbols are not yet represented by Yyyy's .

xxyyyxxyyyyy means there are Katakana symbols (the yyy's) and others mixed.

Ideally we would include all the Japanese symbols, looking just like the original, but that might not be much of an improvement compared to the effort needed to do it.

For now, this map will give anyone a good headstart with the S2000.

It would be nice if those with Japanese skills or translations could decipher more of the deeper layers of the menu, like the 169 items that can be monitored and recorded from the Battery-ECU.

Please try it out and let me know how it shapes up for people not so used to mindmapping...

The attached file is NOT a PDF file, you need to delete the .pdf at the end of the name and replace it with .mmap for it to work.
Attachments
S2000 scanner menus 2010-12-21C.pdf
Must replace .pdf file extension with .mmap!
(6.19 MiB) Downloaded 178 times
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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by Levi471 » Dec 23 2010 10:48am

Hi, All,
I am new to the site and have only just purchased a '98 Prius that had a dead HV battery. I recharged the battery by first charging up to about 60 V before I could activate the onboard charger. Now all things operate, but don't know the ins and outs of the car. Firstly, when I reverse, the engine shuts down and the car works prefectly on the battery. When I stop, the engine automatically restarts and keeps running. When I drive and accelerate, the turtle comes up. If I immy reduce accelaeration all is ok, if I continue to accelerate, the turtle stays on and the car slows down, requiring a reset before I can use it normally. Any info for me, please? I am really interested to get this thing working properly again. Secondly, the MFD only has a backlight. No display. Help!

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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by Mr. Mik » Dec 23 2010 3:18pm

Welcome!
Levi471 wrote: Firstly, when I reverse, the engine shuts down and the car works prefectly on the battery.
That is perfectly normal. It can be a big problem when the battery is empty or severely defective, because the car is then totally unable to reverse.
When I stop, the engine automatically restarts and keeps running.

That should only happen if the HV battery needs additional charging, or if the ICE is still too cold, or if the air-conditioner is running. Once the car is warmed up and the battery charged enough for the liking of the ECU, the ICE should stop. However, there is an as yet unexplained aberrant behaviour of some NHW10's. They do not turn their ICE off when stopping at lights when starting out with a cold ICE, even once the ICE has warmed up. If the ignition is turned off and back on once the ICE is warm, then the ICE will auto-stop at traffic lights.
When I drive and accelerate, the turtle comes up. If I immy reduce accelaeration all is ok, if I continue to accelerate, the turtle stays on and the car slows down, requiring a reset before I can use it normally.
That is difficult to diagnose even if the MFD works. Have you done the MAF sensor cleaning https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 64#p211975 and other servicing ? https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 64#p211974
Any info for me, please? I am really interested to get this thing working properly again. Secondly, the MFD only has a backlight. No display. Help!
Maybe you can get a used MFD from the wreckers? The MFD is not essential, but helpful in some situations.

Check out the thousands of posts about this car in the yahoo group at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Mk1_Prius/

The search function is a dogs breakfast and pictures cannot be integrated into posts etc, like apparently with all Yahoo groups. But it is the best source for information about this car (in English).
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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by Mr. Mik » Dec 24 2010 8:56am

Attached is a vastly improved version of the English S2000 NHW10 Menu structure.

Again, it is really a .mmap file, NOT a PDF file.

I renamed it to S2000 scanner menus 2010-12-24 public.mmap.pdf to get it past the forum software.

Download, then RENAME it by deleting just the last few letters so that the name is again the proper name: S2000 scanner menus 2010-12-24 public.mmap

Then open it with the free viewer software available at http://www.issusa.com/page5753554.aspx

Main improvements include much more detailed description of the 169 items in the 3.2.1 ECU DATA MONITORING:MONITOR section, including identification of two "Turtle Counters".

There are many other improvements but also many incomplete and incorrect parts. It is a work in progress and there are multiple markers and notes for my own attention to be used while trying to figure out this scanner.

I am quite convinced that even people without this scanner can
A) contribute to the deciphering/translating/explaining of many of the menus, particularly those related to airbags, ABS, fuel injection, ignition timing etc. which will be quite easy to translate for someone who understands the subject matter of the menu. Many of the Japanese menu lines concerned with these contain Roman letters and Arabic numbers that will make it obvious to someone who understands how these systems work and how they look on an English OBDII compliant scanner.

B) learn a lot about how the hybrid system works and how Toyota achieve long NiMH battery life, simply by looking at what they are monitoring/measuring.

Of course, if you come across any insights, please share!
Attachments
S2000 scanner menus 2010-12-24 public.mmap.pdf
Delete the.pdf at the end of the file name!
(6.2 MiB) Downloaded 237 times
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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by DavidPhan » Jan 09 2011 9:42pm

Hi guys

Would anyone have a English translation and break down of the NHW11 card for the s2000?

Thanks
David

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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by Mr. Mik » Jan 17 2011 7:13am

DavidPhan wrote:Hi guys

Would anyone have a English translation and break down of the NHW11 card for the s2000?

Thanks
David
Try comparing it to the NHW10 translations. I guess it will be very similar.
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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by Sammy » Jan 19 2011 7:36am

Hello,

Thank you all for this board as i have learned a great deal from it. I have a imported Japanese 1999 prius with me in London and am having difficulty finding someone in England with a Tecno S2000 reader or someone that can service this Prius.

DO any of you know anyone in the UK or London who services older generation Prius and has the equipment to do so for a Japanese import.

Your help is greatly appreciated.


Sam

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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by Mr. Mik » Jan 19 2011 5:18pm

Ask on the http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Mk1_Prius/ group.

I know of a person doing mobile NHW10 service somewhere on your island, I'll forward a link to this post so he can contact you if appropriate.
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Special Freddy NHW10 EQ charger V15.3

Post by Mr. Mik » Apr 27 2011 9:51pm

Here is the "final" (HAHA!) version 15.3 of the Special Freddy NHW10 EQ charger. It has been working quite well for some time now but it still needs to be considered an experimental design. Don't just build one like it unless you know what you are doing!
See these previous posts for more details: https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 78#p284578
and https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 07#p272207

Thanks again to "The Laird" and Mike Dabrowski for all the help!


A permanently installed harness (removable) now allows to plug the charger in without any opening of the battery. Diodes protect against electrocution risk.

Click to enlarge: Image

The next part is not yet built and will allow the cooling impellers to be run by a solar panel when the car is parked in the sun. This should reduce imbalance due to differential heating of cells. It will need another diode somewhere I think.
Click to enlarge: Image
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Placeholder only.

Post by Mr. Mik » May 15 2011 3:55pm

Placeholder only.
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Replacement battery modules

Post by Mr. Mik » May 15 2011 3:57pm

Used battery modules ("sticks") can be bought from a number of vendors, one example can be found here:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/hy ... post191735
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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by kiqnkf » Feb 15 2012 10:27pm

The nhw10 prius is a fantastic little car!! Here's to hoping we can still be driving them around when they reach 25 years of age!!

After extensive "fiddling", the only way I could get my 2 cars running, was to purchase new battery packs. These can be found on ebay Australia.

Apparently toyota new zealand are doing them also.
Last edited by kiqnkf on Dec 14 2012 5:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
Royce Union D/S Mountain Bike, 500w Chituma front wheel kit
Stealth Bomber, custom electric kit....
NHW10 Prius - Ask, I may be able to help!!!

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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by dimonda » Mar 07 2012 7:29am

Hi, did you get the scanner? We have just found a Toyota dealer tool (Mastertech) amongst some stuff in the warehouse so just waiting on the missing DLC lead to arrive, hopefully the NHW10 will be covered in the software..

We have 2 x NHW10 here that we are learning on if they can be of help..

regards

Andrew

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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by whatever » Dec 14 2012 2:06pm

can the nimh pack be replaced with a123 20ah cells in NHW10?

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Re: Prius NHW10 (MK1) Hybrids - How to test and resurrect th

Post by SamTexas » Dec 14 2012 2:49pm

Interesting thread. Subscribed.

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