Headway Battery rust

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
patrickza   1 kW

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by patrickza » Mar 02 2010 3:30pm

I haven't checked on the cells in my pack for a couple of months now (thank goodness). They were fine two months ago though. Just had a look at the spare cells (two different batches) in my cupboard, they've been there for months and not a single tiny dot of rust to bee seen anywhere. We're not particularly rust prone generally, but we've just had the wettest summer in 30 years and my motorbike had plenty of rust on it.

If his cells rusted like that something abnormal was going on.
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swbluto   100 GW

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by swbluto » Mar 02 2010 3:48pm

Heat DOES speed up the chemical process of rusting, just as it speeds up any chemical reaction. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation for more.

The difference between 15C and 35C is a chemical reaction rate of nearly quadruple in most chemical reactions.

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Lock   10 GW

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by Lock » Mar 02 2010 3:53pm

If his cells rusted like that something abnormal was going on.
Gawd I love abnormal... "Normal" is like the arithmatic average, from which almost everything and everyone is a deviation... :twisted:
Abnormal is so much more inclusive dontcha think? But yah, I tend to support the fertilizer/plastics/wattever also stored in the garage theory...
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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by swbluto » Mar 02 2010 4:30pm

Lock wrote:
If his cells rusted like that something abnormal was going on.
Gawd I love abnormal... "Normal" is like the arithmatic average, from which almost everything and everyone is a deviation... :twisted:
Abnormal is so much more inclusive dontcha think? But yah, I tend to support the fertilizer/plastics/wattever also stored in the garage theory...
lLoKc
I'm pretty sure everything within a certain number of standard deviations of the mean is considered "normal" in statistics, so normal would be more inclusive than abnormality. I think "normal" would apply to at least 1 sigma, and probably near 2 sigma.

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Lock   10 GW

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by Lock » Mar 02 2010 4:57pm

...yer missing out on the rest of the Sigmas! Stats are just a convenience... Practical and all that... BUT in any creative sense I would encourage folks to look beyond the math...
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v_tach   100 W

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by v_tach » Mar 02 2010 5:08pm

I've got eight Headways I've had sitting on my workbench in my garage since just before last summer. The garage has no climate control and I'm on the Gulf Coast in Florida. The end of the cells have no noticeable corrosion at all.

I cant help but believe something other than ambient humidity and air temperature contributed to such significant corrosion of the OP's cell. I keep all my lawn and pool chemicals in a storage shed in my back yard. If I store a shovel or any other metal tool in that shed, its junk within a year from corrosion. Even powder coated equipment suffers rapidly if I store it in the same shed as the chemicals.

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JRP3   100 W

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by JRP3 » Mar 02 2010 7:57pm

Of course heat speeds up chemical reactions, but 35 C is still well within the operating temperature of the cells, so in and of itself can not be considered a contributing factor. 35 C is listed as a long term max storage temperature not because of external issues but because of internal cell characteristics, discharge and degradation. To suggest that the rust happened because the temperature in the garage may have been above 35 C for a few days is misleading. I agree something unusual is going on, and I suspect it's a result of chemicals in Headways packaging, along with a poor choice of material for the cell end, and/or poor coating on that end. I'd still like to hear a good reason why plain steel is used in a cell at all.
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frodus   10 kW

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by frodus » Mar 02 2010 8:16pm

its not plain, its coated with something to keep it from corroding.... obviously its not enough, maybe a thicker plating needs to be used?
Travis

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by JRP3 » Mar 02 2010 8:32pm

I'm suggesting a different base material besides steel. At the very least a thicker coating, but coated or not steel is still prone to rust. Why use steel at all?
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dnmun   100 GW

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by dnmun » Mar 02 2010 8:32pm

i never stated that 35C caused the rusting. he refuted headways claim that the batteries were stored incorrectly by stating that they never exceeded that 35C number which i assume meant something. i just cannot imagine that 35C is not normal in a closed non airconditioned garage in south florida.

my point was that they do not rust when exposed to very high ambient humidity and so there has to be something more than humidity causing his cells to rust.

he obviously does not have to reply about whether there were lead acid batteries, pool chlorine, fertilizers, other chemicals or salt water immersion involved. in fact he does not have to even prove anything. or if the performance of the pack is impeded.

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by miro13car » Mar 05 2010 9:21am

agree with GRP3,
WHY TO USE STEEL FOR CELL ENDS AT ALL?
Believe me sooner or later rust will find the way to get to steel.
why no other metal?
steel is heavy.
construction of PSI/BMI/LifeBatt grey cells eliminate rust problems completely.
MC

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JRP3   100 W

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by JRP3 » Mar 05 2010 9:40am

Actually I think BMI uses steel as well, but with a better coating. Still don't think steel needs to be in there at all.
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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by frodus » Mar 05 2010 12:46pm

Headway manufactures the cells for BMI/Lifebatt/Lifetech...... From the answers I've got, the cells only differ in their chemistry.
Travis

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by swbluto » Mar 05 2010 1:15pm

Lock wrote:...yer missing out on the rest of the Sigmas! Stats are just a convenience... Practical and all that... BUT in any creative sense I would encourage folks to look beyond the math...
Lock
Many of those people "who don't look at statistics" usually "look below the math" instead of above. :) Stats are usually more an inconvenience than convenience.

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BMI   100 W

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by BMI » Mar 05 2010 6:23pm

frodus wrote:Headway manufactures the cells for BMI/Lifebatt/Lifetech...... From the answers I've got, the cells only differ in their chemistry.
Absolute baloney! Frodus clearly has no idea what he is talking about.

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by frodus » Mar 05 2010 7:06pm

I talked directly to several people who have told me that headway is the one that makes 15Ah cells (the red ones) for Lifebatt/Lifetech. Its not like its a huge secret. I talked to one of them on Skype 2 days ago to confirm.

You have yet to prove to us that you're the manufacturer of the actual cells. Just "telling us" that you make them doesn't really hold much water. You provide pictures of your test facility and assembly of the battery packs, but none of the actual cell manufacturing area.
Travis

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by BMI » Mar 05 2010 7:20pm

frodus wrote:I talked directly to several people who have told me that headway is the one that makes your cells. Its not like its a huge secret. I talked to one of them on Skype 2 days ago to confirm before I opened my mouth.

You have yet to prove to us that you're the manufacturer of the actual cells. Just "telling us" doesn't count. You provide pictures of your test facility and assembly of the battery packs, but none of the actual cell manufacturing area.
So why does someone in China "telling you" on Skype count either. How would they know where the cells are made?
I know the facts of the whole story. You definitely don't.

So why are LiFeTech cells superior in both quality and performance if they are made by Headway?
Wouldn't Headway make cells for their own customers to be just as good as the cells made for us if that was the case?

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JRP3   100 W

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by JRP3 » Mar 05 2010 7:33pm

Now I'm confused. I thought you said Headway made the cells, to your specs with your ingredients?
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BMI   100 W

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by BMI » Mar 05 2010 7:39pm

JRP3 wrote:Now I'm confused. I thought you said Headway made the cells, to your specs with your ingredients?
Can you show me the post where I said that?

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by frodus » Mar 05 2010 7:49pm

Sure, here ya go BMI.... you posted back in November:
BMI wrote:The 15Ah high capacity XPS cells are made exclusively for LiFeTech. They are not available from Headway. The 15Ah cells were red in color but in the last couple of weeks the factory has changed the cell color to "Platinum". They are a very high grade cell are made specifically for LiFeTech XPS battery packs and the cells are used for special projects for Government departments and the like.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 45#p213834


That someone I've talked to in China is Headway, and they're selling Batteries direct to EVComponents. They know who builds the Lifetech/Lifebatt batteries because they're the ones Manufacturing them.

The reason LiFeTech are so different from headway in their energy/power, is because they DO use a different chemistry, I never said they didn't. They have an exclusive contract to build cells using the specified chemistry and sell them ONLY to Lifetech/Lifebatt.

Another reason they're showing less failures, better discharge, lower IR.... is because you guys test them extensively once you get them and weed out the bad cells. I'm not slamming you at all, I have a pretty good idea that Lifebatt and Lifetech are higher power/energy cells that are tested extensively to ensure that the customers don't get bad cells. My whole point was, you guys don't make the cells.... at least not right now you don't.
Travis

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BMI   100 W

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by BMI » Mar 05 2010 8:20pm

BMI wrote:
frodus wrote:I talked directly to several people who have told me that headway is the one that makes your cells. Its not like its a huge secret. I talked to one of them on Skype 2 days ago to confirm before I opened my mouth.

You have yet to prove to us that you're the manufacturer of the actual cells. Just "telling us" doesn't count. You provide pictures of your test facility and assembly of the battery packs, but none of the actual cell manufacturing area.
So why does someone in China "telling you" on Skype count either. How would they know where the cells are made?
I know the facts of the whole story. You definitely don't.

So why are LiFeTech cells superior in both quality and performance if they are made by Headway?
Wouldn't Headway make cells for their own customers to be just as good as the cells made for us if that was the case?
You are the one who changes your posts Frodus, not me. I state the facts as they are at the time.
Look at your quote as quoted in my post ie "....headway is the one that makes your cells". Then after I had posted my reply you go back and change your original post to " headway is the one that makes the 15Ah cells (the red ones)".
I am talking about what is the current situation (as of now/today).

Yes, back in November Headway did manufacture the earliest few batches of 15Ah cells for us (the red ones). Due to the poor quality of the Headway manufactured product and long delays experienced in them delivering product we could not tolerate this since we did not want to risk our reputation due to the increasingly long times it would take for us to deliver our customers the battery packs they had ordered which used these cells.

This is when we cancelled the Headway contract and we decided the only way to maintain our high quality standards would be to manufacture the cells ourselves which is what we have been doing for the last 3 months since setting up our own cell assembly lines. All of the cells manufactured in our factory are the "Platinum" color cells and customers can be assured they are 100% LiFeTech Energy product. I am about to send a shipment of Platinum LiFeTech 15Ah cells to the USA so if people see these cells around they will know they are genuine LiFeTech product and not to be associated with Headway in any way.
LiFeTech X2E 15Ah cell.JPG

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BMI   100 W

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by BMI » Mar 05 2010 8:31pm

Frodus wrote: My whole point was, you guys don't make the cells.... at least not right now you don't.
Oh, yes indeed we do make the cells now (and have for some time).You shot yourself in the foot Frodus.
So much for "what you were told".

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by frodus » Mar 05 2010 8:40pm

Change my posts? I added information.....I wanted to make it more clear for others. Also, I don't know if you have other cells you use, the thing I do know is that the 15Ah Lifebatt cells were/are made by Headway according to Lifebatt specs. I wanted to make sure I was clear on what cell they are manufacturing.
Yes, back in November Headway did manufacture the earliest few batches of 15Ah cells for us (the red ones). Due to the poor quality of the Headway manufactured product and long delays experienced in them delivering product we could not tolerate this since we did not want to risk our reputation due to the increasingly long times it would take for us to deliver our customers the battery packs they had ordered which used these cells.
According to them, they're still making the 15AH cells. Not sure who's telling the truth here. You still haven't provided any proof that you guys even make the cells.... something I've asked you several times.
This is when we cancelled the Headway contract and we decided the only way to maintain our high quality standards would be to manufacture the cells ourselves which is what we have been doing for the last 3 months since setting up our own cell assembly lines. All of the cells manufactured in our factory are the "Platinum" color cells and customers can be assured they are 100% LiFeTech Energy product. I am about to send a shipment of Platinum LiFeTech 15Ah cells to the USA so if people see these cells around they will know they are genuine LiFeTech product and not to be associated with Headway in any way.
If that's true, its a good move. I hope you guys will consider selling loose cells to distributors..... I wouldn't mind having some Lifetech/Lifebatt cells to sell on our website. Do you have some that I could get for testing? We have some customers that need something that can supply more instantaneous current for Racing, and it might be a good fit.
Travis

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by frodus » Mar 05 2010 8:43pm

BMI wrote:
Frodus wrote: My whole point was, you guys don't make the cells.... at least not right now you don't.
Oh, yes indeed we do make the cells now (and have for some time).You shot yourself in the foot Frodus.
So much for "what you were told".
I didn't shoot myself, I'm the messenger relaying the information.....someone is lying. I've asked our supplier for a picture of the cells they claim they're making for you.
Travis

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Re: Headway Battery rust

Post by voicecoils » Mar 05 2010 10:09pm

BMI wrote:This is when we cancelled the Headway contract and we decided the only way to maintain our high quality standards would be to manufacture the cells ourselves which is what we have been doing for the last 3 months since setting up our own cell assembly lines. All of the cells manufactured in our factory are the "Platinum" color cells and customers can be assured they are 100% LiFeTech Energy product. I am about to send a shipment of Platinum LiFeTech 15Ah cells to the USA so if people see these cells around they will know they are genuine LiFeTech product and not to be associated with Headway in any way.
Where are the cell can and can ends of your current products manufactured? In Taiwan or mainland China?

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