Advice Needed - Headway vs Thundersky

Ok, this is a question that I've been flipflopping on for about a year now. So far I've been able to put it off by saying "Oh, well I don't really need the batteries until X is finished" but now it is the home stretch, I've got everything I need except the batteries. So for my motorcycle with a 72V 60AH pack do I go with Thundersky or Headway. The choice is between getting 24 60Ah TS cells or getting 144( ) Headway cells. (Although if I went headway I'd probably make only a 50AH pack to start and then add another 10AH later if I needed it)

The advantage of Headway seems better performance, but it is more expensive and although I've seen it done in the "Headway Pack Builders" thread it seems pretty troublesome to make a large pack of them like this. Given the rate I work at it might be large enough an obstacle to prevent me from getting this thing on the road anytime soon.

Also there are now those LiFeYPO4 Thundersky cells which promise better performance than the older thundersky cells. I don't have any realworld experience to back this up but I'm under the impression that motorcycles will be pulling 70-80 amps continuous and 200-300 amps peak, which seems like it should be within the limits of a 60AH thundersky cell. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the fear of getting the AH calcuations wrong, I'm trying to get around 50 miles a charge on this thing) and needing to expand the pack. It seems to me that it would be easier to add more headways to a headway pack than TS cells to a TS pack, but maybe I'm wrong there too.

Can anyone offer advice to help me break my decision deadlock?

Don't forget Sky Energy....there have been several reports that they outperform the TS cells. Flater discharge curve at a slightly higher voltage....particualy above 2C.

If you're planning on routinely pulling more than 3C (@60 ahrs = 180 amps) then I would suggest going Headway. If you're planning to stay under 3C then I'd vote with the bang-for-the-buck advantage and go with Thunder Sky cells.

I have a 120 cell Headway pack in my EV and will soon have 2 of them. The 38120S cells rock, IMHO. The energy/$ of TSky makes them cheaper and very much worth considering, however. :wink:

Cheers,
--Adam

I hate to add more potential confusion, but the cells being offered by cellman (I think they are still offered - I can't find the sale thread - here's some info http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15408) outperform just about anything. Cost may be a bit higher - $2.00/aH - but they have been tested at 600A from a 20aH cell - OMFG! They are far lighter per aH than any LiFePO4 out there. When he gets his interconnect thing on (I'll have to look - he may have finalized it) I am picking up a 60V stack...

Oh, no way am I going to consider cellman cells. They look amazing but the foil tabs look like hell to deal with. I'm going for something that will provide the "easiest" solution.

@ahambone. I have to say that I've seen your pack here and on diyelectric car and the headway pack I envision building is pretty much identical to yours. Truely it is a thing of beauty and is the one thing that keeps me coming back to the camp of "maybe I could do it". More of my hesitation has to do with perceived difficulty of building the pack (and then attaching it to my motorcycle) than price. My only concerns are the stresses put on the terminals cells connected end to end and having to make all those copper buss strips by hand from copper pipe. I only have a hand tools to work with is the issue. Also isn't there some sort of issue with buss bars and the positive ends of the cells shorting, I am afraid I'm not yet caught up on that. If there was somewhere I could just buy the 40 buss bars then I might be less hesitant.

Also I don't actually know what my cell power needs are. Right now I mostly just have anecdotal evidence from other threads I read. I assume 3C or 180Amps would be plenty but I honestly don't know if the power I would need for acceleration would be higher.

@pgt400. In my initial searches I haven't found much comparing Sky Energy to Thundersky cells. Of course I don't know if the 'new' LiFeYPO4 cells make any difference from the old LiFePO4 cells in terms of that comparison. What I have found from diyelectriccar seems to say both are solid.

flashedarling said:

Oh, no way am I going to consider cellman cells.

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There are other reasons also not to use these cells based on the honestly and ethical beliefs of the buyer.

I don't doubt the performance claims of the cells for one minute since we know that A123 manufacture very high discharge rate cells. I only question the origins of the cells (where cell_man gets them from). It is my understanding that A123 Systems does not authorize the sale of these cells to individuals/end users and does not know where these cells are coming from (yet). Somewhere along the line from the factory where the cells are manufactured in Korea to their intended destination (the EV manufacturer in Shanghai, China where the cells are supposed to end up) some cells are being either stolen or bypassing the authorized supply route to the manufacturer.

It would be nice if cell-man would be totally open and honest with everyone about the source of these cells.

I have some government customers and my reputation as an honest seller is very important and must remain squeaky clean. If I started supplying "A123" cells from a dubious source which I could not prove I would soon lose orders due to less than ethical conduct.

Of course that is not to stop end users here from using the cells if they so chose. It just comes down to the individual end users honesty and ethics.

BMI said:

flashedarling said:

Oh, no way am I going to consider cellman cells.

Click to expand...

There are other reasons also not to use these cells based on the honestly and ethical beliefs of the buyer.

I don't doubt the performance claims of the cells for one minute since we know that A123 manufacture very high discharge rate cells. I only question the origins of the cells (where cell_man gets them from). It is my understanding that A123 Systems does not authorize the sale of these cells to individuals/end users and does not know where these cells are coming from (yet). Somewhere along the line from the factory where the cells are manufactured in Korea to their intended destination (the EV manufacturer in Shanghai, China where the cells are supposed to end up) some cells are being either stolen or bypassing the authorized supply route to the manufacturer.

It would be nice if cell-man would be totally open and honest with everyone about the source of these cells.

I have some government customers and my reputation as an honest seller is very important and must remain squeaky clean. If I started supplying "A123" cells from a dubious source which I could not prove I would soon lose orders due to less than ethical conduct.

Of course that is not to stop end users here from using the cells if they so chose. It just comes down to the individual end users honesty and ethics.

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I buy the cells from a company that has been supplying A123 cells for some time and from what I can see A123 26650s are pretty readily available in many places but nobody seems to care much about those. These cells are not magiced away from the back door of a factory. I'm not gonna tell you where I buy them just because it's openly inviting others to jump in try to take the supply and anyway there does seem to be a few others that have these but at significantly higher prices. I buy them in good faith, at a high price and make a very small profit margin. I doubt there are many that could or would supply these cells at the prices I am offerring for. My conscience is very clear thank you

Regarding the pricing, they're not quite as cheap as previously stated, they're actually 2.5USD/Ah and the tabs are not so bad to deal with.

cell_man said:

BMI said:

flashedarling said:

Oh, no way am I going to consider cellman cells.

Click to expand...

There are other reasons also not to use these cells based on the honestly and ethical beliefs of the buyer.

I don't doubt the performance claims of the cells for one minute since we know that A123 manufacture very high discharge rate cells. I only question the origins of the cells (where cell_man gets them from). It is my understanding that A123 Systems does not authorize the sale of these cells to individuals/end users and does not know where these cells are coming from (yet). Somewhere along the line from the factory where the cells are manufactured in Korea to their intended destination (the EV manufacturer in Shanghai, China where the cells are supposed to end up) some cells are being either stolen or bypassing the authorized supply route to the manufacturer.

It would be nice if cell-man would be totally open and honest with everyone about the source of these cells.

I have some government customers and my reputation as an honest seller is very important and must remain squeaky clean. If I started supplying "A123" cells from a dubious source which I could not prove I would soon lose orders due to less than ethical conduct.

Of course that is not to stop end users here from using the cells if they so chose. It just comes down to the individual end users honesty and ethics.

Click to expand...

I buy the cells from a company that has been supplying A123 cells for some time and from what I can see A123 26650s are pretty readily available in many places but nobody seems to care much about those. These cells are not magiced away from the back door of a factory. I'm not gonna tell you where I buy them just because it's openly inviting others to jump in try to take the supply and anyway there does seem to be a few others that have these but at significantly higher prices. I buy them in good faith, at a high price and make a very small profit margin. I doubt there are many that could or would supply these cells at the prices I am offerring for. My conscience is very clear thank you

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Whether your conscience is clear of not is your business and is of no concern to me.
It is my conscience which is of concern to me. I am supplying cells for a few different projects ranging from e-bikes to e-cars. If my customers asked me about the cells and where they come from and my reply was along the lines of "sorry Mr Customer I am not allowed to tell you where these cells come from" my reputaion and business would be shot to pieces!

Just as Hymotion are an authorized distributor of A123 products for the hybrid vehicle market if you could show that you are similarly an endorsed A123 supplier it would give you a great deal more legitimacy in the minds of customers.

It can only be of benefit to you and removes any air of "back door deals".

Thank for your advice I'll try my best.

No offense guys, but kinda seems like business battling should be done somewhere else. Just my 2 cents. I understand where you both are coming from, but time and a place. Perhaps start your own thread.

Jay64 said:

No offense guys, but kinda seems like business battling should be done somewhere else. Just my 2 cents. I understand where you both are coming from, but time and a place. Perhaps start your own thread.

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You can't really blame cell_man for jumping in to defend himself....no one likes to be accused of stealing. Sounds like sour grapes. How much are BMI cells nowadays... $35 for a 10AH cell? Thats $3.5/amp hour! No wonder everyone has jumped to Headways (which may be BMI cells now??).

Cell_man's product performs. Can't really argue with that.

If you want the best performance in a form that takes up way less space and weight than all of the other LiFePO4 options, cell_man stuff dominates, and its a damn good price for the performance.

ever consider foxx batteries??? ... 3c continuous... 48v 20amp $605.. delivered see foxxpower

kriskros said:

ever consider foxx batteries??? ... 3c continuous... 48v 20amp $605.. delivered see foxxpower

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You have one? The catalog states 33 lbs for that battery.

flashedarling:

Truely it is a thing of beauty ...

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Wow.. I'm blushing!

Thanks for the compliments on the battery pack. You are right - without access to local scrap yards for the copper and a friend's machine shop I wouldn't have been able to make my battery pack. I too have a garage that is mostly hand tools and outfitted for wood and not metal. Before the headway cells I started off spot welding 18650 cylindrical cells and made it through about 150 assembled of them into 5p packs before frustration overcame motivation.

For a motorcycle I have this feeling you could get away with 8 GA cable and crimping by hand with ring terminals to make a bunch of 1.5" connectors for the bridges between the cells. But that would still leave the most negative and most positive ends of the pack needing bus bars. You can drill the bus bars by hand - my car has some bus bars that attach to the controllers that were drilled by hand.

Please keep us posted on what you decide to go with we love to hear what you decide to do. There are a million ways to solve this problem and it'll be great to see what creative solution you come up with.

Cheers,
--Adam

pgt400 said:

Jay64 said:

No offense guys, but kinda seems like business battling should be done somewhere else. Just my 2 cents. I understand where you both are coming from, but time and a place. Perhaps start your own thread.

Click to expand...

How much are BMI cells nowadays... $35 for a 10AH cell? Thats $3.5/amp hour! No wonder everyone has jumped to Headways (which may be BMI cells now??).

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For your information BMI is now LiFeTech Energy. No our cells are definitely not Headway cells. They are far better quality than Headway cells. They provide far better performance than Headway cells.
Your choice if you want to buy a Headway pack. Only you can decide for yourself it is worth buying a cheap inferior Headway pack and having to clean the rust stains off your bike.
Harsh I know, but the truth.

BMI said:

pgt400 said:

Jay64 said:

No offense guys, but kinda seems like business battling should be done somewhere else. Just my 2 cents. I understand where you both are coming from, but time and a place. Perhaps start your own thread.

Click to expand...

How much are BMI cells nowadays... $35 for a 10AH cell? Thats $3.5/amp hour! No wonder everyone has jumped to Headways (which may be BMI cells now??).

Click to expand...

For your information BMI is now LiFeTech Energy. No our cells are definitely not Headway cells. They are far better quality than Headway cells. They provide far better performance than Headway cells.
Your choice if you want to buy a Headway pack. Only you can decide for yourself it is worth buying a cheap inferior Headway pack and having to clean the rust stains off your bike.
Harsh I know, but the truth.

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This is your website, right? http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battey-packs
BMI, no offense but I checked your website out and there are no prices anywhere. That's usually a bad sign. Do you just sell to companies ? I'm just saying that when I shop for anything online, if I see no prices, I usually don't even bother, I just move on to the next website.

morph999 said:

This is your website, right? http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battey-packs
BMI, no offense but I checked your website out and there are no prices anywhere. That's usually a bad sign. Do you just sell to companies ? I'm just saying that when I shop for anything online, if I see no prices, I usually don't even bother, I just move on to the next website.

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Morph999, I welcome your comments.
On the contrary, the fact that we don't list prices is a GOOD SIGN rather than a bad one! It is an indicator that the product is a quality product rather than where companies advertise their prices hoping to be the cheapest to make the maximum sales. When you widely advertise on a website based on being the lowest price that can often be a bad sign since to be cheaper often means corners have been cut in the quality of the materials used in manufacture or testing and quality control (or both). Our good reputation as a manufacturer and supplier of high quality LiFePO4 battery products is far more important to us than advertising a cheap price to move lots of stock.
While on the subject of reputation. Headway openly sell their cheap cells to anyone. We don't. Now that Headway are having serious cell rusting issues do you think this will enhance their reputation as a quality cell manufacturer?

You said "I'm just saying that when I shop for anything online, if I see no prices, I usually don't even bother, I just move on to the next website".
I don't see too many prices listed on the A123 website for their cells. Does that mean that A123 cells are junk and it is not worth looking at their website and instead moving to another website where there are prices listed?

Often when no prices are listed on a website is a sign of a professional company who sell their products primarily to manufacturers and government departments etc. where the performance of the product and quality of manufacture are of most importance and the price is only a secondary consideration.
For example lets use the example of buying a new car. If you walked into a Ferrari or Porsche show room you won't see too many prices listed. People buying these sort of cars don't buy because it has a cheap advertised price but rather because of the performance and/or quality is high.

Getting back to your question, yes we mainly sell to "professional battery users". This can mean manufacturers or government departments. For example here in Australia LiFeTech Energy is the only lithium battery manufacturer on the governments approved suppliers list since we supply batteries for hospital and medical applications.

So the fact that we don't list our prices on a website, is that really such a bad thing? In fact it is quite a big help to us since it helps to weed out many of the non genuine or otherwise incompetent end users out there who we do not want to sell to anyway and thus allows us to spend more time concentrating on our customers needs in providing excellent customer service and lots of technical assistance with personalized help with their projects.

I could expand more fully on what I have said above and provide actual examples but I think that will do for now and provides some explanation as to why no listed prices is more often than not a good thing.

Hi,

BMI said:

There are other reasons also not to use these cells based on the honestly and ethical beliefs of the buyer.

I don't doubt the performance claims of the cells for one minute since we know that A123 manufacture very high discharge rate cells. I only question the origins of the cells (where cell_man gets them from). It is my understanding that A123 Systems does not authorize the sale of these cells to individuals/end users and does not know where these cells are coming from (yet). Somewhere along the line from the factory where the cells are manufactured in Korea to their intended destination (the EV manufacturer in Shanghai, China where the cells are supposed to end up) some cells are being either stolen or bypassing the authorized supply route to the manufacturer.

It would be nice if cell-man would be totally open and honest with everyone about the source of these cells.

If my customers asked me about the cells and where they come from and my reply was along the lines of "sorry Mr Customer I am not allowed to tell you where these cells come from" my reputaion and business would be shot to pieces!

Click to expand...

You just ruined your reputation. If you are trying to convince me never to purchase products from you or your company you are doing an excellent job. Accusing someone of theft, without proof is morally unethical and socially unacceptable.

A123 probably sells their cells under the condition that they not be sold as bare cells to individuals. I think its a liability issue.

BMI said:

Of course that is not to stop end users here from using the cells if they so chose. It just comes down to the individual end users honesty and ethics.

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I prefer the freedom to decide myself if I can handle bare cells safely. If I decide that I can I am very happy to have the option of paying a fair price for superior quality cells. A123 makes money and I get a good deal on great cells. Nothing unethical or dishonest in that.

Much better than dealing with someone whose business model is based on unsubstantiated slander.

Not giving price info is about having prices and pricing structure designed to gouge those applications that can pay more. Plain and simple.

Calling headways inferior products is interesting. Would you like cell_man to call your cells inferior products? You can't possibly claim to meet the standards, technology, chemistry make-up that his A123 cells have, but he doesn't go around calling your cells inferior.

This is how I see headways/TS cells.
Say you have a defined budget for an EV you wish to build.

If you choose BMI cells to power your EV, your EV will have about 1/3rd to 1/4th the range as if you choose headways or TS cells. This is of course because the same battery budget gets you about 3-4times the energy storage using headways or TS cells. If I had to choose between making say a 7mile range EV with BMI cells, or a 20-30mile range EV with headways/TS cells, the choice is simple to make.

My $0.02

MitchJi said:

A123 probably sells their cells under the condition that they not be sold as bare cells to individuals. I think its a liability issue.

I prefer the freedom to decide myself if I can handle bare cells safely. If I decide that I can I am very happy to have the option of paying a fair price for superior quality cells. A123 makes money and I get a good deal on great cells. Nothing unethical or dishonest in that.

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No, it is more an issue of problems when selling to incompetent users.
I will give you an actual example of what I mean. A few months ago I supplied some sample 40138 cells to a customer who had told be they were an experienced electrical technician and solar power installer. So I thought there would be no problems in supplying this customer with some loose cells. That was my mistake!
A few days later I received the cells back in the mail in a leaking and black charred state. I thought what the hell had happened here since I have never seen anything like that before. The customer wanted his money back claiming they were faulty due to factory manufacturing defects. I knew this was not true and wanted to get to the bottom of the story and the true cause. After a considerable period of time on the phone speaking to this customer I finally got to the bottom of the story. It turned out that this customer had put the cells in a metal box and when the box was closed both cell terminal ends came in contact with the metal box causing a severe and sustained short circuit causing permanent cell damage.
The nerve of the customer trying to claim the problem was due to a manufacturing defect!!!
More to the point my mistake was supplying cells to an incompetent user. But how was I to know this when I took the claims made to me that he was an experienced electrical technician in good faith?

So you see the problem here from the manufacturer’s point of view? Since that time our policy has changed and we (as the manufacturer) decide who we will supply the cells to which is why we mainly supply to manufacturing companies. I am sure it is for similar reasons why A123 don't sell their cells directly and why tens of thousands of A123 cells have had to be salvaged from Dewalt tool packs.

We prefer the freedom to decide who we supply cells to due to the incompetent end users we have come across. Surely you can't blame us for that!

liveforphysics said:

Calling headways inferior products is interesting. Would you like cell_man to call your cells inferior products? You can't possibly claim to meet the standards, technology, chemistry make-up that his A123 cells have, but he doesn't go around calling your cells inferior.

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If you were not aware it is a fact that Headway cells are inferior to LiFeTech cells in terms of both manufacturing quality and discharge performance. Have you tested several thousand Headway cells to gauge their performance as we have?

I would think that cell-man's cells and our LiFeTech Power cells would be on a par in terms of discharge power.
In fact I would welcome discharge testing to prove how they compare.

This would also conclusively prove that LiFeTech cells are streaks ahead of Headway cells and put to rest any claims made that our cells are just rebadged Headway cells.

If a thorough test of ALL the major brands of cells could be undertaken I would be pleased to supply LiFeTech Power cells for this purpose. This would mean testing LiFeTech, A123, Headway, PSI, Thundersky and perhaps Sky Energy cells.

Of course this testing would need to be done at a truly unbiased, independent and accredited testing laboratory.

Also the cell tests would need to be performed at the same cell capacity for all cells so that they are all on the same level playing field. I would propose that we use 40Ah as the standard cell testing capacity so a 40Ah TS cell could be used against two of cell mans 20Ah A123 cells in parallel, against 4x10Ah Headway cells in parallel etc.

So if someone is willing to pay for the independent laboratory testing and other cell manufacturers are prepared to supply cells for testing I would be pleased to also supply LiFeTech cells for any such testing.

It can't be fairer than that!

Hi,

MitchJi said:

A123 probably sells their cells under the condition that they not be sold as bare cells to individuals. I think its a liability issue.

I prefer the freedom to decide myself if I can handle bare cells safely. If I decide that I can I am very happy to have the option of paying a fair price for superior quality cells. A123 makes money and I get a good deal on great cells. Nothing unethical or dishonest in that.

Click to expand...

BMI said:

We prefer the freedom to decide who we supply cells to due to the incompetent end users we have come across. Surely you can't blame us for that!

Click to expand...

What I blame you for is calling someone who supplies high quality A123 cells, at a fair price, to users who wouldn't otherwise have access to those cells and even potential purchasers of those cells unethical and dishonest.

MitchJi said:

BMI said:

We prefer the freedom to decide who we supply cells to due to the incompetent end users we have come across. Surely you can't blame us for that!

Click to expand...

What I blame you for is calling someone who supplies high quality A123 cells, at a fair price, to users who wouldn't otherwise have access to those cells and even potential purchasers of those cells unethical and dishonest.

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When asked about where cell man's cells came from (not only on this forum but other forums as well) the seller was less than forth coming about the source and did not want to explain exactly why they couldn't say much. Furthermore I recall reading a while ago on one of the other EV forums that the A123 markings would be scratched off the cells. In fact why on the forum are cell mans cells termed as being "A123 alike"?
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1753
Either they are genuine A123 cells or they aren't. That sounds dubious to me.
If the seller would have just been up front and totally honest from the start there would be no problem and there would have been no suspicions raised.

I can't imagine why on earth anyone re-selling a product would want to give away the source... Seems like that would be about the worst business decision ever. lol