Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Ducktape

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
Post Reply
User avatar
Lyen   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 621
Joined: Aug 17 2007 1:26am
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Contact:

Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Ducktape

Post by Lyen » May 20 2010 9:33pm

The safety claim of the LifePO4 is a liar when duck-taped and caused my pants on fire. :cry:

I had an incident while I was riding my ebike home from work earlier in the morning. While I was traveling at 31MPH for the last 6 miles, there was a car driver shouting at me telling me my ass was on fire. I immediately pull over to the sidewalk and put off the fire with my motorcycle glove. Fortunately, only one of my finger had a minor burn on the skin when trying to put off the fire. My underwear had also saved my butt. LOL

Image

The ducktape 48v 20Ah LifePO4 battery inside the Sunlite rack bag becomes a fireball and very much burned everything inside the bag including the BMS, Topeak tool, charger, and the rack bag.

Image

It took me five minutes to put off the fire with a piece of ceramic brick I picked of the ground.

Image

It then start investigate and noticed a few of the cells in parallel of are down to 0.1v. The BMS could not detect it and continue to discharge. The out of balance cells heated up the ducktapes and started the fire.

Image

I was not able to take pictures of the Sunlite rack bag since it is totally burned to ash.

Image

So my conclusion to the safety claim of using the LifePO4 is a liar if it is being wrapped with ducktape.

Image

Lastly, my advice to the people using any ducktape battery should check their cells periodically if possible to avoid having the incident like I did. :)

Regards,
Lyen
Last edited by Lyen on May 20 2010 9:41pm, edited 2 times in total.
Items For Sale
Please sign up here and donate your marrow to save life.

User avatar
liveforphysics   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14134
Joined: Oct 29 2008 1:48am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by liveforphysics » May 20 2010 9:37pm

It can happen with non-duct-tape LiFePO4 cells as well. If you watch the vid in my sig, you will see a headways cell blasting out flames. Granted, it took a LOT of heat before it happened, but it still happened.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

maydaverave   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 541
Joined: Jan 13 2009 11:14pm

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by maydaverave » May 20 2010 10:05pm

Where did you get the battery?
e-bikekit 50v 9.2ah cellman pack

User avatar
wasp   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 679
Joined: Apr 03 2008 6:07pm

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by wasp » May 20 2010 10:09pm

Lyen wrote:The safety claim of the LifePO4 is a liar when duck-taped and caused my pants on fire. :cry:

I had an incident while I was riding my ebike home from work earlier in the morning. While I was traveling at 31MPH for the last 6 miles, there was a car driver shouting at me telling me my ass was on fire. I immediately pull over to the sidewalk and put off the fire with my motorcycle glove. Fortunately, only one of my finger had a minor burn on the skin when trying to put off the fire. My underwear had also saved my butt. LOL

Image

The ducktape 48v 20Ah LifePO4 battery inside the Sunlite rack bag becomes a fireball and very much burned everything inside the bag including the BMS, Topeak tool, charger, and the rack bag.

Image

It took me five minutes to put off the fire with a piece of ceramic brick I picked of the ground.

Image

It then start investigate and noticed a few of the cells in parallel of are down to 0.1v. The BMS could not detect it and continue to discharge. The out of balance cells heated up the ducktapes and started the fire.

Image

I was not able to take pictures of the Sunlite rack bag since it is totally burned to ash.

Image

So my conclusion to the safety claim of using the LifePO4 is a liar if it is being wrapped with ducktape.

Image

Lastly, my advice to the people using any ducktape battery should check their cells periodically if possible to avoid having the incident like I did. :)

Regards,
Lyen
sorry about the bad luck edward but i'm glad you are alright...a little lighter in the wallet...btw who's battery ping,cammy ???
glad your alright

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35593
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by dogman dan » May 20 2010 10:20pm

Looks like 18650's . Yeowch! Ida thought it would have taken a dead short to get one that hot. The other duct tape pack I recall getting that hot had rubbed a rough spot on a vintage scooters homemade battery compartment cutting into it till it made a short. No chemistry likes a c rate that high, so hot enough to set duct tape on fire can happen with any chemistry that gets shorted. I had a 12v truck battery melt every single wire under the hood and in the dashboard once. only 12v but it was shorted to the exhaust manifold.

Amazing that could result simply from having a few dead cells in the pack though! Time to add another thermometer to our bikes?

slayer   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 350
Joined: Jun 03 2007 8:59pm
Location: gatineau Qc

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by slayer » May 20 2010 10:27pm

Ole f?$**&% sh*&%?...
That is bad.
you have the outside temp and continuous discharge and other info to share

User avatar
Lock   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4082
Joined: May 24 2007 5:46pm
Location: Toronto Harbour
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by Lock » May 20 2010 10:43pm

Lyen wrote:Lastly, my advice to the people using any ducktape battery should check their cells periodically if possible to avoid having the incident like I did.
How`bout disassembling any duct tape pack completely when new and replacing all BMS sense wires w/better than eg 24 gauge... ensure all soldered joints and wires are mechanically and electrically "tight"...
lock
If you like this message feel free to donate BeerCoins (BTC) to:
1LxAXWmbjY6SeMf8r9HHhSKt6pWyPvWg6L

Toronto Electric Riders Association:
http://www.ebikeriders.com/
Canada, eh?

User avatar
number1cruncher   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 415
Joined: Sep 13 2009 1:52pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by number1cruncher » May 21 2010 9:30am

You are having some bad luck with batteries this year Lyen. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... po#p226722 Maybe its all those big hills in San Fran stressing the batteries? Glad to see you're okay!
Go to http://www.ebike.ca and buy stuff to support the rEVolution!

Electra Townie 700c Euro 8i - 20s2p Zippy LiPo - Rear 9c clone
Performance x201 - 18s2p - Rear 9c 8x8

All things lead to the path of least resistance.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." ~Charleton Heston

User avatar
TylerDurden   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7177
Joined: Jan 04 2007 5:50pm
Location: Wear the fox hat.
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by TylerDurden » May 21 2010 10:03am

I'm with dogman... Sure looks like a short to me.

Also, I would not call it thermal runaway if you could extinguish the fire. LiCo/LiPo would probably be an unstoppable raging blaze.

Most packs present a risk due to the level of energy they contain and most cells will heat and burn surrounding flammable material when shorted, regarless of chemistry.
Have a Nice Day,

TD

Image
___________________________________________________________

FYI: Adding pictures?

Bored?... take a crack at the unanswered posts

Please post your Watts-at-speed in the survey.



Image

User avatar
Hyena   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5628
Joined: Aug 13 2008 9:10am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by Hyena » May 24 2010 1:00am

Wow, take that lipo haters!
Lyen wrote:While I was traveling at 31MPH for the last 6 miles, there was a car driver shouting at me telling me my ass was on fire.
Not to question your sexual orientation or preference of extra curricular activities, but what have you done to desensitise your ass to the point that you didn't know it was on fine ? :lol:

Seriously though it's good that you're OK and fortunate that the pack was far enough behind you that it didn't set your clothes on fire.
www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

johnnythefox   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 19
Joined: Jul 18 2009 3:07pm

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by johnnythefox » May 24 2010 2:39am

Wow Lyen, sorry about your battery, at lest you havn't lost your sence of humor.

User avatar
Lyen   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 621
Joined: Aug 17 2007 1:26am
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by Lyen » Jun 09 2010 3:35am

Hi Wasp! The reason I did not disclose the name of the maker is because I do not want to do any harm to their business. Also, there is no real hard evident to proof if it was cause by short circuit or if it is the failure in the original construction and/or design. My only intend was to just wanted to let people know and expect the worst if something goes wrong. :)
Items For Sale
Please sign up here and donate your marrow to save life.

User avatar
Hyena   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5628
Joined: Aug 13 2008 9:10am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by Hyena » Jun 09 2010 3:41am

You're not having much luck lately Lyen, first the battery then the BMS.
I think you need to rename this thread to lyen lyen pants on fire :lol:
www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

User avatar
Lyen   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 621
Joined: Aug 17 2007 1:26am
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by Lyen » Jun 09 2010 3:54am

Hyena wrote:You're not having much luck lately Lyen, first the battery then the BMS.
I think you need to rename this thread to lyen lyen pants on fire :lol:

Ha ha! I agreed! But I have to pay the "educational entry fee" or the learning lessons to join the party as well. No pain no gain! :D
Items For Sale
Please sign up here and donate your marrow to save life.

whatever   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1149
Joined: Jun 03 2010 2:16am

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by whatever » Jun 09 2010 4:35am

Can you vonfirm if they were actually lithium iron phosphate?
Did you take voltage of fully charged pack or what is max voltage of charger written it?
If know fully charged voltage you can divide by number of cells in series and get fully charged voltage of a cell, I had a company sold me cobalt oxide type after ordering iron phosphate type, it was a long time ago though.
Also what was the max amps you were running at for 6 miles?

User avatar
Hyena   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5628
Joined: Aug 13 2008 9:10am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by Hyena » Jun 09 2010 4:38am

Lyen wrote:I have to pay the "educational entry fee"
Heh I've paid a fortune in educational entry fees. My parts bin is rather full but I'm proudly still KFF free :mrgreen:
www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

User avatar
Lyen   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 621
Joined: Aug 17 2007 1:26am
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by Lyen » Jun 09 2010 5:14am

whatever wrote:Can you vonfirm if they were actually lithium iron phosphate?
Did you take voltage of fully charged pack or what is max voltage of charger written it?
If know fully charged voltage you can divide by number of cells in series and get fully charged voltage of a cell, I had a company sold me cobalt oxide type after ordering iron phosphate type, it was a long time ago though.
Also what was the max amps you were running at for 6 miles?
Yes, I have confirmed it uses the LifePO4 18650 cells. The fully charged voltage was around 55v. Each individual cell is at 3.2v so they are really the LifePO4. The max amps was between 33-36amp.
Items For Sale
Please sign up here and donate your marrow to save life.

ejonesss   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 716
Joined: Aug 31 2008 4:21pm

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by ejonesss » Jun 09 2010 8:06pm

looks like maybe the chinese are starting to use lipo or first generation of lithium ion ( like the laptop and cell phones used) and call it lifepo4 to scam users out of money.
stuff for Even Newer 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS)
32 lifepo4 cells 16s2p 40138 green cells √
16s2p 40138 based pack built assembled (building electrical equiv to $2000 eonyx system.*

User avatar
wineboyrider   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2694
Joined: Sep 30 2009 9:08am
Location: Tularosa, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by wineboyrider » Jun 09 2010 10:01pm

F##%%$#%# I hope my Pings don't explode on me. :o :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

User avatar
Lyen   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 621
Joined: Aug 17 2007 1:26am
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by Lyen » Jun 09 2010 10:16pm

The LifePO4 18650 cells do not explose, they just heat up the duck tapes and burn. :?
Items For Sale
Please sign up here and donate your marrow to save life.

whatever   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1149
Joined: Jun 03 2010 2:16am

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by whatever » Jun 10 2010 3:26am

if each cell is approx 1.1ahr? and your drawing 33 to 36amps continuously, that would equate to about 30c rate??
30c is a heck of a current draw. What would be your ahr rating of the cells in parallel, can work out what C rate you were drawing. I know some companies wont give any warranty if using over 2C, might just be the C rate was a bit much for the cells,
temperature of cells at different c rates seems to vary hugely from one maker to another.

User avatar
Lyen   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 621
Joined: Aug 17 2007 1:26am
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Liar Liar Pants On Fire > Thermal Runaway LifePO4 Duckta

Post by Lyen » Jun 10 2010 3:49am

whatever wrote:if each cell is approx 1.1ahr? and your drawing 33 to 36amps continuously, that would equate to about 30c rate??
30c is a heck of a current draw. What would be your ahr rating of the cells in parallel, can work out what C rate you were drawing. I know some companies wont give any warranty if using over 2C, might just be the C rate was a bit much for the cells,
temperature of cells at different c rates seems to vary hugely from one maker to another.
The cells are configured in parallel & series. So higher discharge can be sustained.
Items For Sale
Please sign up here and donate your marrow to save life.

Post Reply