Battery help for a semi-informed beginner

Ok, hey guys,

Im interested in building a 36v 960w cyclone kit mid geared ebike. I want to use it for the daily ride to school for the next three years. That means that i'd need it to do the 11km trip there and back each day, ideally without the NEED to charge at school. So 25km range. I've read that the 960w Cyclone pulls around 40A continuous at WOT and can peak as high as 60a depending on your controller, and ideally i'd like to be able to do this trip at 50km/h continuous. From what i've read the 960 will push my 120 pound ass that fast easily, and ill be honest and say it's unlikely that i'll be pedalling accept off a dead stop (if it makes a huge difference in the long run). So my battery parameters are essentially 40-60 minutes of ~40a draw. I've read you really want to stay away from anything under 3c if you possibly can, so i guess around 30-40ah at 36v rated at 3c.
Now, at this stage i need to decide on a battery and a bms. I don't want to constantly fiddle with individual cells ongoingly, so i need the bms. I don't mind building my own battery out of cells. Research into what is availiable leads me all over the internet, seemingly with no one single definitive source of reliable information, so i come for aid! As far as i can tell, the thundersky cells could be configured for what i need but they seem heavy, as could the headway cells if they were availiable. I could go with a 20ah ping if i was cheap, but i really have read bad things and above all in this i seek to not be dissapointed by top speed or range... There is stuff availiable in the rc market as well, Turnigy...
So what should i get? What is most dependable over long term defined use of this sort?
Parameters:
Motor: 36v 960w Cyclone pulling ~40a continuous, 60a~ peak??? (someone confirm this with me, this is gathered information)
Bike: Norco Dirt jumper, 40 pounds
Rider: 120 pounds
Required Range: 25 km
Required average speed: 50km/h
Battery: Lightest for cheapest that will reliably do the voyage without sagging
Assumption: 36v 40ah LiPO4 rated at 3c~

What is everyones suggestion?

seems your choices fall among the following:

Lipo...turnigy or zippys
A123 cells
Konion cells
headway cells
...hope I'm not forgetting anyone here

best value for brand new stuff is lipo and headways

for used stuff, look for konions and A123 in the for sale section

Ok, thats what i had thought...

So let's say i went with Turnigy.

Turnigy 5000mAh 5S 20C Lipo Pack: 42.25$

Spec.
Minimum Capacity: 5000mAh
Configuration: 5S1P / 18.5v / 5Cell
Constant Discharge: 20C
Peak Discharge (10sec): 30C
Pack Weight: 666g
Pack Size: 149 x 48 x 42mm
Charge Plug: JST-XH
Discharge plug: 4mm Bullet-connnector

12 of these in 6s2p (treating packs as cells) would give me 37v 30ah at 20c, would it not, ie 1110 wh, so at 507$ before shipping it would be .21/mha? I guess that would actually be... 30s2p when you look at the cells in the original turnigys. Would i need to dissasemble the packs and then reassemble as one unit, or can i wire these together to a bms without further modification? And what BMS should i use?

I could go for a 500$ lithium investment. I assume 100$ min for the BMS with shipping, and then at least another 100$ for battery shipping. So maybe 700$ for a 36v 30ah 20c LiPo 9kg. I can swing that and a 960watt cyclone.

Andje said:

Ok, thats what i had thought...

So let's say i went with Turnigy.

Turnigy 5000mAh 5S 20C Lipo Pack: 42.25$

Spec.
Minimum Capacity: 5000mAh
Configuration: 5S1P / 18.5v / 5Cell
Constant Discharge: 20C
Peak Discharge (10sec): 30C
Pack Weight: 666g
Pack Size: 149 x 48 x 42mm
Charge Plug: JST-XH
Discharge plug: 4mm Bullet-connnector

12 of these in 6s2p (treating packs as cells) would give me 37v 30ah at 20c, would it not, ie 1110 wh, so at 507$ before shipping it would be .21/mha? I guess that would actually be... 30s2p when you look at the cells in the original turnigys. Would i need to dissasemble the packs and then reassemble as one unit, or can i wire these together to a bms without further modification? And what BMS should i use?

I could go for a 500$ lithium investment. I assume 100$ min for the BMS with shipping, and then at least another 100$ for battery shipping. So maybe 700$ for a 36v 30ah 20c LiPo 9kg. I can swing that and a 960watt cyclone.

Click to expand...

12 of these packs 5S1P packs would amount to 10S6P or 10S 30AH and would work quite well for a cyclone setup!

iCharger 1010B+ would get you up with a nice balancing charger but perhaps the better option for your use would be bulk charging and adding an HVC/LVC type protection like the ones gary goodrum is offering right now on tppacks.com - to do 6 packs, you would need to expand the parallel adapters he offers to a 2x setup but that isn't much more than soldering some leads.

10S is a nice voltage because you could just carry a simple lower powered 150w 41.5v supply and pickup some charge wherever possible...

Since the cyclones I've seen tend to max at 60A - that would be good for a solid 30 minutes uphill without pedaling at 100% power output but really - youve figured out by now that you pull about 1/4 to 1/8th of the max power nominally on most bikes - especially if geared properly with a cyclone and running in the proper gear for the given speed (think uphill in a 4 banger 4 speed)... so if the average current is 15A (1/4 of the peak) then you would have roughly 2 hours travel time on that 30AH pack.

Hope this helps!

-Mike

^-- what he said.

iCharger + zippy flightmax is what i'm going with. You can balance charge two 5s packs with the 1010b+, which is pretty damn convenient. That's why i selected that voltage. They also make some 10s packs, which seem overly expensive.. but they are something to consider for the pure sake of charging convenience.

For the power supply i'm going with a meanwell 13.5V 350watt-er. It seems to be the best deal. You can go cheaper than those, but i'm on the cautious side so i'm going for those.

Add a low voltage cutoff ( LVC ) and a watt meter ( turnigy makes one ) and you should have fairly good protection against the pitfalls of LiPO. It is really sensitive to being out of balance, being above or below it's voltage range, or being crushed.

By sensitive i mean it catches on fire if you mistreat it, lol

Since you were talking in terms of packs and others were talking in terms of cells.... to clarify. 10s = two 5s packs in series.

For 30 ah, you'd paralell connect 6 of the 5s packs, then series connect that to another set of paralelled 5s packs. So you'd have two 30 ah 5s batteries, and could charge each one on a seperate lipo charger. You don't need a bms with these lipo smart chargers, but you will need to monitor voltages so you don't overdischarge.

so it's 10s you want. 30s 2p would be 126v , 10 ah. You want 42v 30 ah.

hmmm no airmail for 5ah lipos to canada apperently.
im waiting on a reply from hobbyking about ground hipping to canada...

also the more i read the more im leaning towards only 20AH to start with.

So if i went with the Turnigy cells id now need only 8, so i'd paralell 4 packs to have two 18v 20ah and then series them to an lvh/hvc with the intention of charging the battery as one unit. Im looking at the tp packs lvc/hvc.


"6-Channel LVC + 4p Parallel Adapter

New Protected Version
6-Channel LiPo/LiFePO4 Low Voltage Protection Circuit + Parallel Adapter.
Provides two functions, individual low voltage protection for each channel, and provides a convenient way to connect the balance plugs for up to four Turnigy/Zippy LiPo packs in parallel. The PCB contains pads for four 7-pin JST-XH connectors. This is a very easy way to build up to 20Ah packs, and provide cell-level low voltage protection at the same time, for either LiPo or LiFePO4-based packs. The standard balancer output is via a 7-pin 3.5mm mini-terminal block.

This version now includes 5.1V zener diodes on each circuit, to help provide protection from loose connections and wiring errors causing the TC54 voltage detection chips to fail.

The LVC function provides an opto-coupled 2-wire output signal that can be connected into the ebike controller's ebrake input, or can be used to pull down the throttle signal, that goes active anytime a block of paralleled cells goes below 3.0V, for LiPo, or 2.1V for LiFePO4. This will cause the controller to temporarily cut the throttle input, which removes the load. Simple, but very effective and estremely reliable.

Options are provided for either 1, 2 or 4 boards, with the latter two having the LVC opto outputs already connected. A two-wire pigtail and a 2-pin header connector is provided for each board, or group of boards, which can be used to "daisy-chain" the opto outputs from multiple LVC/HVC/Parallel Adapter boards. "


so... this means that i could get one of these with 2 boards and essentialy just connect the turnigy cells to it right?

And finally, im super confused on charging... It seems like i will end up with two 5s4p 18v 20AH LiPos right? So with an lvc/hvc i could just bulk charge them from one source made for 10s8p 36v, right, like any 150w 41.5v charger? Or do i need an iCharger or something more complicated? Charging simply is my goal overall; these won't be totally drained ever ideally, but they will be used almost every day.

Many here would say bulk charge with a meanwell, but with half of the packs paralelled into each block, it wouldn't be that much connecting and disconnecting to use two lipo chargers to charge the pack in two pieces. Especially if you have a dedicated charge port built into your battery box.

Once you up the voltage to 72 or more, then things get a lot more complicated with charging 5s at a time. But for just two paralell strings it seems like simple enough.

There is some lipo in a warehouse in the usa. Priced higer but perhaps worth it to get it ground shipped.

hmm so i could get an iCharger 1010B+ as was suggested and charge the two 5s packs at the same time with it right?

Also, as long as i have an intelligent lipo charger set not to overcharge and a watt meter that i pay attention too, there's no real need for a bms/lvc/hvc is there? The charger can limit overcharge and monitoring the meter can avoid over discharge? I'd cut all that stuff if it's doable. Will the turnigy Watt meter display things like remaining charge, or is it just displaying realtime useage? I guess once i've got the trip done once it's not going to change so on a day to day basis i won't really need to worry about monitoring the system as long as it works the first time. It's not like im going to have to worry about how far im going or if the charge will last as long as it lasts the first time.

Dogman, what do you mean "in a warehouse?" is this a site i am unaware of?

seems like id go Cycle Analyst after further investigation. Also, I guess with the chance of packs failing i'd order 10 of the 5 ah and use 8 saving two as spare (if they all work out of the box lol). I'd hate to be sitting waiting on one more battery to make the whole system work. Also seems like I would have to reinforce and or rebuild the motor mount for the cyclone to not worry about it. I don't weld but i've done lots of building with tapped angle iron, and ill be able to weld within 9 months . So I think i'd use L angle iron and heavily reinforce the mount essentially by surrounding it with tightly bolted cage of angle iron. I also think i'd mount the cyclone in the frame using the mount upside down since i dont have bottle holder mounts and will have to rely on clamping force one way or another for the mount. Id rather not have to use the tensioner wheel, id prefer to rely on the chain between the chainwheel and motor being taught. I'd go for the three chainwheel kit, but i wont be putting a mid derailer on i don't think, i'll just pick one of the rings.I guess if i enventually upgrade to the ENO (through wealth or neccessity) i could rebuild the thing with only two rings if it makes a difference.
I guess other considerations now are
a) is there a controller that can be easily used with the cyclone 36v 960w that would run say 60 amps continuous? if (when) my cyclone controller craps out id rather replace it with something more expensive that wont.
b) throttle... i know i don't like half throttles... my absolute ideal would be a brake leaver throttle on the right and a dual pull brake leaver on the left. I have this set up on my HT gas mtb, and i really like it, although of course it's all mechanical and i've never seen a hall effect one. Anyone know of other throttles that can be used with Cyclone? Ive seen a whole thread about splicing i think a crystalyte into a cyclone... but it was ages ago and i cant find it now. I guess next best thing would be left hand thumb throttle...
c)
Lol... I knew this would add up but man it's adding up.
Cyclone 960 kit to East Canada: 468$
Cycle Analyst: 150$
ICharger: 170$
10x 5000mAh 20c Turnigys:420.25 BEFORE SHIPPING
Misc connectors/supplies: 100$

i think i'm at about 1200...

It do add up fast.

The warehouse comment. Most of hobby kings stock is located in china. But they do stock a warehouse in europe, and now another in the usa. A limited number of items will be found at the usa warehouse. So while wading though all the batteries, look for the usa warehouse, and you can get them shipped a bit easier perhaps. Heres one in the usa.

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=12938&Product_Name=Turnigy_5000mAh_5S_20C_Lipo_Pack_(USA_Warehouse)

The CA is a great tool, good up to 100v, so 20s lipo won't bother it. If it does, they send you a new one. It won't know what you have left, but with experience, you can take what you see on the CA and make a darn good guess.

i see, thanks dogman,

as far as i can tell though, when i go to that warehouse site it just tells me only availiable to US customers. I've been looking EVERYWERE though for batteries and there doesnt seem to be anything available in Canada at anything less then about double what it is in the US. So The HK turnigy stuff is probably cheapest solution even with whatever shipping comes with it.
My only other solution seems to be Thundersky cells through elite power, which I had originally discounted as too heavy. I still am not fully sold on the idea, but its 546$ for 36v 20ah. The cells are only rated at 3c continuous and 10c peak, but its a 20aH battery so it would technically be perfect for the half hour 15-20amp average draw. 20 pounds is within my weight desires... I guess unless there is a reason i don't know about the thundersky's could work.
http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?products_id=123

I would rather go with the Turnigys since both solutions would be similar in cost and weight, but one would net me 30-60c batteries. I guess less cells and the charger included in the Thundersky's is a pretty big incentive though...

I'm using the Elite Power TS batteries for a Cyclone type system with a 350W 24V brushed Unite motor. It works well for me. I bought them w/o the BMS or charger and put together a simple BMS using a balancing charger from HK and a Celllog for lvc. You'd need 2 Celllogs for 36V. You can read about what I did at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20764. It's a modular system so individual parts are easily replaced. I also used a Turnigy WattMeter. Not as versatile as the CA but a lot cheaper - jd

well after getting linked by someone over to evassemble, i'd have to go with 38140S 12ah Headways at this stage. I like them, they fit the bill, they are only 100$ to ship over like 26 of them, giving me 24 3.7v 12 AH 10c cells, to be assembled into two 18v 24ah packs in 6s2p or a total of 36v 24Ah 10c. And all for only 600$ to canada...

so looks like i'll be doing that. Id rather go lifepo4 then lipo for the cycles, and lipo looks too hard to get for me here in Canada, so this would work out i think...

i havent found anyone who has done it, but these headway cells have a diameter of 38mm, ie 1.49inches and are 15cm long. The all waterproof axiom pannier bags are 33cmx15cm. You can get 1.5 ID PVC pipe. I could stack them 2 each inside piping and then 4 in a flat layer and then do three layers, giving me a battery total size of 30cmX15cmX~20cm? I just dont want to use the supplied headway plastic connectors because im trying for a more longterm solution. I would get pipe caps and drill holes at either end for the ends of the cells to protrude, then glue one side and just slide in cells and friction/clamp the other cap on the other end, and then either build a pipe mount out of rigid plastic cutting boards or even just epoxy and or clamp the pipe cells together and throw them in a waterproof pannier bag. It would only weigh 8kg so i'd be fine carrying that inside with me. Ill either waterproof the controller or mount it in the bag too. I just dont want to rely on the standard plastic connection hardware, i dont want to use wood, and i dont want to rely on the screw connections between batteries to hold themselves together, but i do want to mount them two together to make an efficient pannier sized pack.the pipe would offer rigidity, support and partial extra waterproofing, as well as potentially being assemblable into differrent shapes much easier then the cells alone.
I would still want to do two packs of 18v 2ah and then run the whole thing at 36v 24ah with 10c i will have power to spare and should get a good cycle count out of my batteries.

Headways should be a good plan.

I tried to buy some more of those HK usa warehouse packs I linked to yesterday. They only let you ship one per package. So 8 seperate orders for what I was thinking of.

So the usa warehouse is not so great when you want a pile of lipo. I didn't know they couldn't ship to canada from there.

They make glue-on ends with thread-in plugs for pvc pipe if that makes it easier to service the batteries. IIRC they're called cleanouts - jd

Ooooook....

I might look at something screw on for the ends of the pvc, but to be honest i think for what i want it for ie cylindrical rigidity and not waterproofing or anything else probably just hand torquing of the end bits will work, if not a tension clamp prbly so its easily removable. But thats just to hold the things. Designing wiring the damn thing is priority one lol. I dont even know yet if they will fit into 1.5" pvc, its only the numbers that say that lol.

So i finally understood BMS's and charge balancing today! It didnt click in my mind until i understood how the balancer wires were attached to each cell. thanks :http://www.kenalten.com/howtobms.html

So... Continued plan. 24 Headway LiPofe4 arranged in cells of 2 at 7.4 12ah each, to make two 36v 12ah packs, each arranged in 6s1p. Charge those with two seperate 6s balancer/chargers, probably iCharger iC6 Digital Balance Charger 6cell from hobbyking. Need two 14-17v power supplies for that too.
Monitor the whole thing with Cycle Analyst when im using it for LVC and program in HVC with the charger/balancer. Probably get two Cell-Log Cell Voltage Monitor 2-8S Lipo to keep track of the cells and check the balancing.

Here's a great 24v headway build thread, although u have to register quickfast to see the pics,
http://www.gopednation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298082

I think i'd copy that guy's approach and use anderson Powerpole connectors for all the balancer wires and such cause it looks sweet and useful. I think i'd probably grab some rigid plastic cutting boards and hole saw out the pipe holes and construct a removable unit that would be easy to service; accessing individual cells could be as easy pulling it out of the bag and then opening a tube and sliding out the cells. I guess i'd use thick gauge wire to connect the the cells in series. I can see how doing the battery right is super crucial; ive been messing arround with an electric/gas hybrid bicycle i built and when the electric fails i alsways have to wonder if something i did wrong broke cause doing it has been a learning process and the stuff i did at first is badly soldered and or just twisted together...

http://www.ypedal.com/Cyclone2.htm

hmmm looking at that guys splicing the crystalite thumb into the cyclone throttle is ideal. With a thumb throttle connected i can already see how i could build a rig to connect it to a brake leaver and have brake leaver throttle again and dual pull brake leaver on other side for both brakes.

hmm... upon further investigation, it seems like it would be much easier to balance the cells if they were arranged as 3.7 24ah instead of 7.4 12ah... So two in a tube that only just fits them wont work for putting two in parallel...hmmmm.... perhaps ill return to the holes in cutting boards to hold naked batteries and instead arrange them at 6s2p to make two 18volts and just add like two more cutting boards or something for middle pack rigidity.

Andje said:

Here's a great 24v headway build thread, although u have to register quickfast to see the pics,
http://www.gopednation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298082...

Click to expand...

:lol: LOL, I think I know that guy... lot of water under his bridge since then

Sounds like you are enjoying the journey :wink: hooked for sure, LOL 8)

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