LifeBatt introduces new packs

M

miro13car

100 kW
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
1,905
Location
Calgary, Canada
I came across LifeBatt ads display on bikeforums .net which says that LB offers now 2 new cells 20Ah and 14Ah /built into packs-they don't sell cells individualy/which is exactely the size of old grey cells. They are 14Ah cells not grey anymore, they are blue, why blue?
There are picture of 36V 10Ah pack made of these cells but NOT picture of cell itself?
On drawings this blue cell has stud terminals , but again no picture of cell?
MC
Can somebody go there on LB web siter and comment?
 
aNDY,
THE CELLS YOU COULD GET, ARE THEY BLUE?
I never saw blue PSI cell.
I love my grey BMI/LifeBatt cells, they are so solid and predictable.
After 3 summers and 3 winters they do not show slight deteriation, something opposite they feel stronger as ever.
BTW it puzzles me why Taiwan factory drop them from production, what happened to their no doubt expensive production machines, I know about cost cutting measures with Headway.
But drop production of one of the best cell in the world?
MC
 
miro13car said:
aNDY,
THE CELLS YOU COULD GET, ARE THEY BLUE?
I never saw blue PSI cell.
I love my grey BMI/LifeBatt cells, they are so solid and predictable.
After 3 summers and 3 winters they do not show slight deteriation, something opposite they feel stronger as ever.
BTW it puzzles me why Taiwan factory drop them from production, what happened to their no doubt expensive production machines, I know about cost cutting measures with Headway.
But drop production of one of the best cell in the world?
MC
Click to expand...

The 'Taiwan factory' didn't drop them from production - they were made for BMI and LiFebatt in the PSI factory. The color is just shrink wrap - commission a production run of cells and one can get any color they want and with or without phostech powder. No magic here. Bolt-end 40138 cells of any color are made at only one shop in the world - PSI Taiwan.**

edit...** There may be another factory making studded 40138 cells...Armin and I have confirmed separately that PSI is not making LifeBatt's cylindrical cells. Anything to make it harder to track 'who's who' I guess... :?
 
but why on earth make them look like Headways?
All Headways are blue.
Or those shown on LB site are not PSI-made?;
You do not know for sure?
MC
 
AndyH said:
miro13car said:
aNDY,
THE CELLS YOU COULD GET, ARE THEY BLUE?
I never saw blue PSI cell.
I love my grey BMI/LifeBatt cells, they are so solid and predictable.
After 3 summers and 3 winters they do not show slight deteriation, something opposite they feel stronger as ever.
BTW it puzzles me why Taiwan factory drop them from production, what happened to their no doubt expensive production machines, I know about cost cutting measures with Headway.
But drop production of one of the best cell in the world?
MC
Click to expand...

The 'Taiwan factory' didn't drop them from production - they were made for BMI and LiFebatt in the PSI factory. The color is just shrink wrap - commission a production run of cells and one can get any color they want and with or without phostech powder. No magic here. Bolt-end 40138 cells of any color are made at only one shop in the world - PSI Taiwan.
Click to expand...


correct me if i am wrong but from an email and pm i got from lifebatt they now are making them in the usa to save on shipping (they got the multi thousand/million dollar machine that melts, extrudes and rolls the lithium.

(of course if pangea comes true in the near future then a trip can be made by car to pick up the supplies)
 
miro13car said:
but why on earth make them look like Headways?
All Headways are blue.
Or those shown on LB site are not PSI-made?;
You do not know for sure?
MC
Click to expand...
Yes, all cells made for Lifebatt USA are manufactured by PSI and shipped to the USA for assembly into packs. The cells are not made in the USA. They were forced to buy cells from another supplier (PSI) after LiFeTech Energy (LiFeBatt Taiwan) management cancelled all rights for LiFeBatt USA to sell cells and battery products manufactured by LiFeTech Energy.
Please understand that Lifebatt USA is an entirely different company to LiFeBatt Inc. and there is no longer any relationship whatsoever.
LiFeBatt USA can only sell batteries using the LiFeBatt trademark in the USA. LiFeBatt Inc. (Taiwan) holds the rights to the trademark throughout the rest of the world. If LiFeBatt USA sell their product outside of the USA they are open to legal action.

The new 20Ah 300A continuous discharge professional HEHC LiFeTech Energy cell will be released soon and you will see that the performance is far superior to the performance offered by the Lifebatt USA cells which are an old technology cell based on the original 40138 PSI cell. The LiFeTech 20Ah 51174 cell is being designed and manufactured to the specifications of a large US manufacturer.
You can read more about the cell on the AEVA forum here-
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=2260
 
Wow!


LiFeTech_3.3V_20Ah_HEHC_Cell.JPG
 
Armin,
thank you for explaination,
I didn`t know about those all business dealings details.

For us on this forum what really counts is what cells are offered by what company.
I am interested in the best and want to buy the best.
And grey BMI/LB cell built into 36V 10Ah HPS pack was one of the best.
.I know you don`t want to comment on what on LB web site?
I know I repeat myself but when you go to visit LB site you see one picture of assembled pack with blue cells.
accidently all Headways cells are blue, strange.
Again why on earth PSI would choose blue wrap , with all this talk of Don distancing himself from Chinese hand-made cells, why cells colour look exactely like Headway?
LifeBatt UK also avoids any pictures of cells , just drawings.
MC
 
Micael, Armin,
HEHC cells are great for electric car , no ebike would draw 100A forgot 200Amps.
Cost of such cell would be astronomical , those alu fins has to be machined or pressed, imagine cost of doing this???
Again EV people can get excited.
MC
 
michaelplogue said:
miro13car said:
no ebike would draw 100A forgot 200Amps.
Click to expand...

Don't be so sure of that...... you'd be surprised with what some folks are willing to try.... :p
Click to expand...

Yes, a heavy ebike or trike @24V or 36V with a heavy person or two trying to jet across an intersection could easily use 300A. Who doesn't love strong acceleration?
 
Kinda interested in 20Ah cells not for the high C rates but just to cut down on the number of cells (connections, wiring, BMS) in a pack... I have 16 10A cells to play with but am wondering about replacing 1/2 the number of cells with a DC-DC converter to up the output to 48V... This for sub 1000W outputs...

So for example the Mean Well SD-1000L-48 is a $400approx. 4lb package about 12"x5"x2" rated for 21A/1008W continous output... and 3yr warranty. Typical efficiency 90%, accepts 19-72V DC input and outputs 48VDC. Data sheet attached here:
View attachment MeanWell_SD-1000_DC-DC.pdf

But I dunno if this approach of replacing cells with a converter makes any sense... If cost was not a factor, any advantages or disadvantages...

Tks
loCk
 
there is no way to make such complicated alloy can with fins cheap way.
This is going to be one VERY expensive cell.
Obviously for any tech person it is obvious such fins you would only need in car applications.
A123 pouch do not have fins.
MC
 
miro13car said:
there is no way to make such complicated alloy can with fins cheap way.
Click to expand...

Isn't that can just an aluminum extrusion with radial grooves cut into it?
 
BMI said:
miro13car said:
but why on earth make them look like Headways?
All Headways are blue.
Or those shown on LB site are not PSI-made?;
You do not know for sure?
MC
Click to expand...
Yes, all cells made for Lifebatt USA are manufactured by PSI and shipped to the USA for assembly into packs.
Click to expand...

The cylindricals should be - but the prismatics are absolutely not made by PSI.
 
miro13car said:
but why on earth make them look like Headways?
All Headways are blue.
Or those shown on LB site are not PSI-made?;
You do not know for sure?
MC
Click to expand...

Blue is not trademarked by Headway. The important indicator for LiFePO4 40138 cells is the terminal design. Note the bolts, external nuts (PSI trademark), cell size, and the use of the PSI assembly blocks? Headway cells do not fit in the PSI assembly blocks - I have assembly blocks and PSI cells here - and also have Headway 10Ah cells. Absolutely not interchangeable.

Another indicator? Look at the performance chart for the LB 40138 cell - then look at the chart design, color and font, and discharge characteristics for the PSI 10Ah cells on the PSI site.
 
michaelplogue said:
miro13car said:
no ebike would draw 100A forgot 200Amps.
Click to expand...

Don't be so sure of that...... you'd be surprised with what some folks are willing to try.... :p
Click to expand...
michaelplogue is absolutely right! A couple of weeks ago I supplied our standard 72V 15Ah XPS factory pack for an e-bike conversion. The owner of the bike sent me a photo showing his bike creation and telling me how happy he was that the top speed of his bike powered by the LiFeTech pack was approx. 100kph (60mph).
You wouldn't get me on that thing at that speed even though it is powered by my pack!
The owner of that bike is considering building another bike (possibly faster and more powerful that his current bike which will be powered by our 96V pack).
View attachment e-bike powerd by 72V 15Ah LiFeTech pack.JPG
 
miro13car said:
there is no way to make such complicated alloy can with fins cheap way.
This is going to be one VERY expensive cell.
Obviously for any tech person it is obvious such fins you would only need in car applications.
A123 pouch do not have fins.
MC
Click to expand...

micro13car my concern was also the cost of the cooling fins but I have been advised by the factory the cost of the new cells with the heatsink fins will be only slightly more expensive than the cell made with out the fins. In addition the cost might be offset if a cooler running cell results in better performance and longer cell life. We expect this cell will perform better in real world use than the 20Ah A123 cell. Lots of money and man hours by the cell design engineering team have gone into the design of this cell.
Also the silver plated centre cell terminal is free to rotate so there are special tools required to assemble these cells into battery packs. As I have stated before this is a cell to be used by large scale manufacturers.
LiFeTech HEHC Cell 002.jpg
 
AndyH said:
The cylindricals should be - but the prismatics are absolutely not made by PSI.
Click to expand...
In fact I think I can clear this up for all concerned. I asked our factory about this and the cells (both cylindrical and prismatic) Lifebatt USA cells are not being made by PSI as such. They are being made for Don Harmon by Dr Jerry Yao. Dr Yao used to work for PSI and he invented the original 40138 cell which is made by PSI. Dr Yao has opened a new factory to make the cells for Don Harmon. The cells are based on old technology and are nothing new. In fact you will notice the C rate for the prismatic cell is getting closer to that of Thundersky cells rather than higher (to approach that of A123 cells and our new LiFeTech cells).
 
miro13car said:
Micael, Armin,
Cost of such cell would be astronomical , those alu fins has to be machined or pressed, imagine cost of doing this???
MC
Click to expand...

Extrusion is the cheapest method of producing objects of complex/intricate radial symmetry. Its relatively cheap compared to machine time needed for milling/turning operations. These fins seem to only have a few simple grooves turned into them so I can see the production cost being quite acceptable.
 
BMI said:
AndyH said:
The cylindricals should be - but the prismatics are absolutely not made by PSI.
Click to expand...
In fact I think I can clear this up for all concerned. I asked our factory about this and the cells (both cylindrical and prismatic) Lifebatt USA cells are not being made by PSI as such. They are being made for Don Harmon by Dr Jerry Yao. Dr Yao used to work for PSI and he invented the original 40138 cell which is made by PSI. Dr Yao has opened a new factory to make the cells for Don Harmon. The cells are based on old technology and are nothing new. In fact you will notice the C rate for the prismatic cell is getting closer to that of Thundersky cells rather than higher (to approach that of A123 cells and our new LiFeTech cells).
Click to expand...

I have confirmation as well that the LB cylindrical 40138 cells are not being made by PSI. I'm not surprised at the PSI connection, however - thanks Armin!

I'm not surprised that the prismatics have lower performance than the cylindricals, regardless of who makes them.

I'd be interested in seeing who buys your cylindricals, Armin. The auto manufacturers are using pouch style cells - better thermal management without extrusions or heavy plastic cases. For these end users, it's all about price and small packaging.

The EV autos and plug-in hybrids don't need high performance cells. Even though cylindricals worked very well in Prius packs, for example, the folks that used to use them have moved to Thunder Sky - and they're still overkill performance wise.
 
Andy,
going back to picture on LifeBatt web site /showing blue cell pack/..
You cannot see terminals in this picture and you cannot say from the picture if there are PSI or Headway blocks.
Or maybe PSI uses specific colurs.
Now we know cells for LB are not made by PSI , agree.
Yes drawings PDF file on the web site show stud termials, but5 there are just drawings, you can draw everything,
I want to see inside pack on picture.
Also UK LifeBatt avoids showing picture of any cell.
MC
 
A pack built out of these would have to provide air handling and extra space between cells, and the heatsinks add weight without adding energy capacity... Seems to me it would be better to invest in cells with a lower internal resistance (and/or just add more cells), and keep them from heating up in the first place.

They do look pretty awesome though. If I was trying to build a battery pack to impress people with its looks for some reason, I'd think about using these.
 
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