Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

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Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:18 am

Single 3s 4Ah Turnigy Nano-Tech LiPo pack. The car is a turbocharged B20B equipped Integra. (just a random car that was available to do the test on at the time)

The battery is connected by just having a an inch of the silicone insulation stripped off each lead, being folded around the battery terminal, and then clamped in place with vise-grips, and insulated with a shop towel to keep the vise grips from arcing on things.

Enjoy


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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby johnrobholmes » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:25 am

Wow, that pack got beat hard! How much capacity did it take? Did his starter motor fair well?
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:38 am

johnrobholmes wrote:Wow, that pack got beat hard! How much capacity did it take? Did his starter motor fair well?



Voltage afterwards was 10.76, 3.59v/cell, and exactly balanced. I disconnected it from the car and immediately charged it at 30amps on the 3010b while it was still warm. :) Took 3.4Ah to bring back to 4.25v/cell.

At the end, the starter was uncomfortably warm to leave your finger on, but didn't appear to be damaged.
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby StudEbiker » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:00 am

That's crazy!
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby texaspyro » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:25 am

Any idea of the self discharge rate on these things?

How about carrying a pack as a jump start pack. Keep a harness with battery clips and a seriesed 400 amp schottky diode to prevent charge current flowing back to the pack. I now do that with a 4S A123 pack.
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby jag » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:36 am

liveforphysics wrote:Single 3s 4Ah Turnigy Nano-Tech LiPo pack. The car is a turbocharged B20B equipped Integra. (just a random car that was available to do the test on at the time)


Where is your clamp A-meter and volt meter?

A gas car can take as little as 100-200A to get the engine turning, and once turning amps drop significantly. You already showed headways cranking your honda, so I guess now we know the nano stuff is about as good as headways...

For a challenge, find a Diesel to start. 20:1 or higher compression.

Sorry for the rain, but my personal belief is that that hobby-king nano stuff is probably not all that much better than their usual better grade LiPo. Until we know otherwise people may be paying premium for just the nano sticker.
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:34 am

jag wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:Single 3s 4Ah Turnigy Nano-Tech LiPo pack. The car is a turbocharged B20B equipped Integra. (just a random car that was available to do the test on at the time)


Where is your clamp A-meter and volt meter?

A gas car can take as little as 100-200A to get the engine turning, and once turning amps drop significantly. You already showed headways cranking your honda, so I guess now we know the nano stuff is about as good as headways...

For a challenge, find a Diesel to start. 20:1 or higher compression.

Sorry for the rain, but my personal belief is that that hobby-king nano stuff is probably not all that much better than their usual better grade LiPo. Until we know otherwise people may be paying premium for just the nano sticker.



The headways pack was 10Ah and would crap out cranking in about 10-15seconds if it didn't start, and voltage would was roughly 2v/cell cranking.

These cells are 0.8mOhm each. I don't know how clueless you are, but is the resistance of 9x A123 M1 26650 cells in parallel if that means anything to you.
It's 1/3rd the resistance of the previous lipo I ever tested.
Hundreds of charge/discharge cycles at 10C, and the tester packs have only GROWN in capacity by a few percent. As in, a few hundred 10C/10C cycles is just breaking them in.

This is the single largest jump in lithium battery technology that I've ever seen.

If you're looking for just bulk energy storage, go with the cheapest 20C packs you can find.
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:09 pm

Guess what I'm going to film now? :)

Giant cast iron big-block ford 428 with high compression pistons from 1972 (my dad's work-truck). I will stick a voltage meter across the battery this time too. :)

His only concern is the extended cranking might flood and hydro-lock the engine if we just keep cranking with the coil-wire off the distributer, because it's a cam-driven mechanical fuel pump going to the big 4-barrel carb, so hopefully that doesn't happen. lol
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My bicycle completes the standing quarter mile in 11.502seconds at 110.56mph.

Giving my time to the electric revolution is done with pleasure. It is no longer fashionable to spit carcinogenic combustion by products in peoples faces as a part of sating daily transport.

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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby dequinox » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:44 pm

WOW... those nano packs are nutz. It might actually be worth the $ for my next build...I'm still living in the pre-lipo world so these are a bit off on the horizon for me, but damn that is sweet.

For the big block test you disconnect the fuel line from the pump can't you? That allows it to just cycle. I don't know if you have to prime the ford ones but I didn't ever have to do that on my chevy c-10's pump. Good luck and can't wait to see the results.

You know I am participating in the SAE Formula Racing team at my university this year, and I think I'm going to suggest nano-lipo as the way to go for the e-car's power storage. They are looking at dealing with Kokam for their lipoly source, but I think that might be a mistake if Kokam doesn't carry nano-tech. Anyways...food for thought.
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby nicobie » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:49 pm

We do a lot of desert short course racing using "restricted" ( :mrgreen: ) VW motors and I've been trying to talk the guys to go hybrid. It would only be used coming out of the corners and maybe passing :twisted: . I figure on it only being needed for 5 -10 minutes a race. They keep telling me it can't be done. Maybe this video will help change their minds...

Way to go LFP! chit like this is why I come here. Thanks
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:21 pm

Thanks for the kind words guys. :)


Ok, I've found the limits of a single 4Ah Nano-Tech pack. lol

Take a big-block FE-428 high compression cast iron V8, try to crank it on a nice cold morning, measure current on the oscilloscope watching the current shunt at over 1000amps, have the pack sag from 12.4vdc to 7.2vdc, and the pack gets hotter in like 4-5seconds of cranking than it did during the entire integra video. lol For the voltage to drop that low, it was DEFINITELY saturated for current delivery capacity, and was way out of it's linear region on the internal resistance curve.

So, a single 4Ah 3s Nano-Tech pack may work, but is strongly not recommended for starting your old-school cast iron high compression 428cubic inch (7 liter) V8 engines on cold mornings. lol

Video is uploading through my phone's tether as I drive, so it seems to be taking forever... but I will post up the video when it finishes.
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Giving my time to the electric revolution is done with pleasure. It is no longer fashionable to spit carcinogenic combustion by products in peoples faces as a part of sating daily transport.

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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:59 pm

Poor battery! lol :twisted: :mrgreen:

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Giving my time to the electric revolution is done with pleasure. It is no longer fashionable to spit carcinogenic combustion by products in peoples faces as a part of sating daily transport.

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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby GGoodrum » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:05 pm

Pushing the envelope again... gotta love it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby johnrobholmes » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:28 pm

Can we get a play by play on the scope? Please?? :mrgreen:
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby texaspyro » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:51 pm

The 4S pack should pump that puppy up real good... Also go with the 5000 mAh...

I wonder how it would crank my 560SL with the big honkin' battery in the trunk and over 10 feet of battery cable?

Speaking of which, I had to replace the battery earlier in the year. Sears Diehard. At first they thought it was only 1 year old from the date code sticker, and I was going to get a new battery for free... then they checked the old sales records more closely. It was over 11 years old and had 100,000+ miles and 11 Texas summers on it. Sears may be the crappiest store on the planet, but they do sell a sweet battery. I wish the sold Diehard radiators and water pumps. Das Mercedes eats them like candy.
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby bigmoose » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:27 pm

You gotta be kidding me!! :mrgreen: You described it on the phone, but it blew me away seeing the video! INCREDIBLE!!

Those current sensors I sent you are good for +- 400 amps you could power them with a nine volt battery and read the sensed current with a fluke voltmeter, then do the math on the reading. Just a thought.

Again, thanks for posting. Those hobbycity LiPo are incredible! I might think about redesigning my alternator system on my Ford backhoe and ditch the lead. The backhoe never starts in the winter the way it is. :P

edit: see the shunt came in handy, and you already made the current measurement. :mrgreen:
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby northernmike » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:18 pm

I feel such guilt. I bought an Interstate MT 47 for the girlfriend's SAAB last week. This would have been so much more fun..
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:34 pm

lol :)


Hitting the poor battery with 200C discharge seems so mean. Putting that in perspective, at 200C discharge, your full cycle from 100% charged to 0% charged takes 18seconds. lol >800amps from a 4Ah cell, and charging it up afterwards, everything was balanced, it took the normal capacity, and running a cycle on the charger, it shows the same ~4.3Ah capacity that it always shows.

If just for kicks, somebody were to make a car battery from these packs that was the full size of a normal car battery, the number of packs in that same space would be about 64, it would be lighter than the car battery, it would hold 2.8kw-hrs, and it would be capable of 13,000amps continuously, over 30,000amps burst, and capable of delivering a continuous 148kw. It would also cost $3000 to build, but honestly, if you needed something to do 30,000amp burst, 13,000amps constant, I bet it would be impossible to beat those specs for $3000.
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby neptronix » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:36 pm

LOL... you are nuts man, i love your antics.

You should make a video series titled 'stupid LiPo tricks'
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby x88x » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:39 pm

Wow, I'm impressed by the ruggedness of those cells. 200C+ draw and they're still going along perfectly happy? Awesome!

Also, you say you've been charging these consistently at 10C? I was a bit concerned to see the HK spec listing of "up to 15C on some cells", but if they can take 10C consistently, that's great news! :D The only info I could find elsewhere online about the charging rate of these cells was on rcgroups.com, and since they're using them for, well, a rather different purpose...none of them seemed to see why anyone would want to charge at any more than 3C. ;)
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby Doctorbass » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:20 pm

Luke.. did you modified the 10 gauge wire on them?

Also.. where did you measured the voltage?.. direct on the balance plug ( avoiding any voltage drop?)

at 800A a 10 gauge wire is certainly losing some... VOLTS...

a 10 gauge is 1 miliohm per feet... at 800A it's 0.8V lost !!!... I guess that a nanotech battery probably have around 1 feet lenght total right??

so conneting directy on teh cell tab would have gained around 0.8V?... :|

That's just 640Watts dissipation on the nanotech wire!!! :mrgreen:

I wonder why it not become incandescent? like a light bulb!!!... toaster style!!... lol

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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby jag » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:39 pm

liveforphysics wrote:
These cells are 0.8mOhm each. I don't know how clueless you are, but is the resistance of 9x A123 M1 26650 cells in parallel if that means anything to you.
It's 1/3rd the resistance of the previous lipo I ever tested.
Hundreds of charge/discharge cycles at 10C, and the tester packs have only GROWN in capacity by a few percent. As in, a few hundred 10C/10C cycles is just breaking them in.


Now this is useful data. The first video of starting the Integra may be cool, but not informative. A lot of lesser packs can start a car.

I have A123 cylindricals, and I bought A123 pouch cells after you and cellman had meticously tested them with pics of amps and volts being delivered. (Though I still have to figure out how to solder the tabs...). That's the type of good work that makes ES valuable.

I walk by the National Institute of Nanotechnology every day on campus. Most nano-tech claims I see are hype. Just like the carbon fiber pattern on the pair of boots I bought, or my toaster with AI or laundry machine with fuzzy logic.
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby methods » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:07 am

Luke told me on the phone that this was all a spoof - he really has a 20Ah PING pack just behind the camera......


-methods
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:34 am

methods wrote:Luke told me on the phone that this was all a spoof - he really has a 20Ah PING pack just behind the camera......


-methods



Truth!

Ping always delivers the epic current. ;)
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Giving my time to the electric revolution is done with pleasure. It is no longer fashionable to spit carcinogenic combustion by products in peoples faces as a part of sating daily transport.

Every post is in honor to the free idea exchange that Justin le preserved to grow with an amazingly high quality content in what is the living bleeding edge of LEV development.
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Re: Nano-tech LiPo demonstration :) Engine cranking

Postby dequinox » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:49 am

Image lol
What is matter? Never mind.
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STABLE:
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(Currently building) Push-E: Push-trailer, Aotema brushed 20" hub motor, 48v LiFePO4 (Parts generously donated by Rassy)
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