Tried to start a car with Headway pack today

Well there was me bragging about how much better these new Lifepo4 batteries are (which they are), so I decided to prove my point by taking 8 x 12ah Headway cells and paralleling them up to make a 24ah 12v battery.

Now the test vehicle was a farmers 2.2 litre Diesel landrover, it did crank over a couple of times but VERY slowly and I had to stop it after 3 secs for fear of destroying the battery. Shame really as I would have thought that 8 x 12ah Headway cells could have supplied the burst amps to power the car.

Checking the cells now though as I have a sneaky feeling they might not have been fully charged.

Thoughts?

Nope....looks like batteries were pretty charged up. Bugger

Diesel engines have super high compression and can take several hundred amps to crank over at 12 volts. Car batteries are rated for cold cranking amps, which is the number of amps it can deliver for 30 seconds at 0 F without cell dropping below 1.2. A decent lead-acid car battery can deliver over 600 CCA. For your 24 Ah battery, it would have to put out at a rate of about 25 C to deliver that kind of crankning amperage. You would need to have a 4s5p configuration to get that kind of power from a 5C rated Headway.

also have to supply Glow plug power !!!

Speaking from experience, I can say that the Headway cells aren't really up to high discharge rates. The 5C rating is pretty optimistic and they sag a fair bit by that point. They are fine for 2 or 3C, but really aren't made for running at around 10C or more, which is probably what you were trying to pull from them.

Jeremy

I should have realised as I am quite familiar without the Headway sag, I run my 9C 7x9 at mostly 30amps with hits of 40amps and use 20 x 16ah Headway cells..... Noticing the 60volts I get from the pack when hammering it.

Was hoping that the car start test pack would have coped for the 5secs of burst uber power usage. Shame really.

Once again though, cheers all for giving me the correct info.

I started a car before Christmas quite successfully on some spare A123 cells - 4s-12p so delivering a nominal 13.2C at 25AH or so.

It was a 2litre Toyota (petrol) and it turned over impressively fast.

dermot

Spacey said:

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Headways are pathetic (in all aspects).


A pack of Nano-techs that would have fit into your pocket would have spun that starter motor harder than it's every been spun.
[youtube]WkKRqaNPIBE[/youtube]

Yeah, aren't headways rated at 5c? ( which is high for lifepo4 )
Meanwhile zippy/turnigy packs are rated 15-40c and nano-tech is 40-90c!!

I hope your batteries are okay !

I can agree with the low power aspect of the headways as well - underwhelming when you hit them hard. The 15AH konion pack cranked over my car nicely when the stupid battery died (but it only draws 125A). As for the headways I tried, they sagged badly

Wow, really impressed with the lipo pack in that video!

Would love to go lipo but I charge my bike unassisted at times, and also at work....can not risk any chance of a fire from batteries hence why I use lifepo4. But the sag and weight is a killer, then again the longevity of lifepo4 is pretty damn good.

Hope my headway 16ah pack is good for 40 amps?

How many cycles do a good lipo pack get?

Spacey said:

Well there was me bragging about how much better these new Lifepo4 batteries are (which they are), so I decided to prove my point by taking 8 x 12ah Headway cells and paralleling them up to make a 24ah 12v battery.

Now the test vehicle was a farmers 2.2 litre Diesel landrover, it did crank over a couple of times but VERY slowly and I had to stop it after 3 secs for fear of destroying the battery. Shame really as I would have thought that 8 x 12ah Headway cells could have supplied the burst amps to power the car.

Checking the cells now though as I have a sneaky feeling they might not have been fully charged.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Spacey, the Headway cell is not suitable for engine starting since the LiFePO4 powder used in these cells is a high "Energy" formulation rather than a high "Power" formulation. For example we have two cells which are identical to each other and identical is size to a Headway cells. These cells are the X1E(E=Energy cell) or X1P (P=Power cell) depending on the powder formulation used to manufacture them. The power cells are only 8Ah but four of the power cells connected in series to make a 12V battery will easily start a car engine. If you use the Headway (energy) cells they will sag badly and even if they do have enough power to crank the engine they will have a very short life before they are damaged.

Nice try at another bit of not-so-subtle advertising, Amin, but I don't believe that even the Lifetech power cells would start the Landrover engine (that is the topic of this post) that Spacey tried to start. As I understand it from the specs, the power version of the Lifetech cells is limited to 20C, 30C for short bursts. The 2.2l diesel Landrover engine requires a CCA of around 400A minimum, more when the weather's cold (it typically has a battery with a CCA rating of 850A), plus a glow plug current that is initially around 100A, dropping to around 50A over the first few seconds as the plugs heat up. The total current requirement at start (assuming normal pre-heat) is therefore around 450A or so, way over the capability for the Lifetech cells, in fact around double their upper burst current limit.

If you want to start engines like this with small packs of around 10Ah, then I believe that the only cells that will reliably do it will be cells with a very high C rate, around 50C or more. The Nano LiPos are probably the only cells around at the moment that have capability to deliver realistic rates of over 50C.

Jeremy

[youtube]BVMR-_mYfu0[/youtube]

Kickstart at -17°, with "headway" (may be chinese copy) 10Ah.

Jeremy Harris said:

Nice try at another bit of not-so-subtle advertising, Amin, but I don't believe that even the Lifetech power cells would start the Landrover engine (that is the topic of this post) that Spacey tried to start.
Jeremy

Click to expand...

Well I can tell you you are absolutely wrong. I can tell you that if our X1P cells were substituted for the Headway cells the Landrover would EASILY start without hesitation. I have actually tested a pack of only 4S1P and this easily starts my Subaru Outback SUV (as shown in the photo)so why you you think that double this power would not start the Landrover?
Have you actually tested our cells? It shows you are ill informed if you claim our cells are not capable of this yet you have no experience with them yourself. It sounds like quite an ignorant attitude you have Jeremy.

You may not be aware but a manufacturer in the USA has chosen exactly this cell for use in their new range of high performance lithium car starting batteries designed for the luxury sports car market.
View attachment 4SX1P Car start test.JPG

Yawn.

Prove it, Armin... 12V @ 450A for 30sec.

A Subaru Outback is not a 20:1 diesel. Maybe you forgot to read that part.

Yes I've started my *gasoline* car with my 1p headways no problemo. Headway also coincidentally makes a power cell and a capacity cell, mine are not the power ones..

Nice - I cant comment on the lifebatts, I still think there is some bad blood with Don? from ages ago.

Amin, if you're now telling us that your cells are at least 45C max, rather than 30C max, then why not put that on the spec sheet?

You can check the CCA requirement for a 2.2l Landrover diesel being started from cold in the middle of the English winter, as well as I can - you'll find that this car normally needs an 850 CCA battery. Showing the stuff you market starting a puny petrol engine in a warm climate doesn't come close to the load that the cold Landrover engine starting in a cold climate presents, as well you know.

Start your own thread about your cells and show us a video of four of your cells starting a Landrover 2.2l from cold, when it's been standing in weather just above 0 deg C for a few hours or shut up and go back to being a salesman in the "for sale" section. We don't need another Headway thread becoming an opportunity for you spout bullshit trying to promote your own stuff.

Mods, can we stop Amin persistently infiltrating threads about other batteries just to market his battery crap, please? I'm well and truly fed up with him spouting BS on threads that are totally unrelated to the products he's pushing.

Jeremy

Jeremy Harris said:

Mods, can we stop Amin persistently infiltrating threads about other batteries just to market his battery crap, please? I'm well and truly fed up with him spouting BS on threads that are totally unrelated to the products he's pushing.
Jeremy

Click to expand...

This thread was all about Spacey not being able to start his Landrover and I explained this was because the HW cell he is using is an energy cell rather than a power cell type.

You use the temperature argument. I don't care if it is 0 degrees or 40 degrees, all I am saying is the LiFeTech cells will have far more discharge/cranking power than the Headway cell under the same conditions.

I have a good idea which I am sure will make Spacey happy.
I am willing to supply Spacey with an 8 cell X1P engine starting battery to try out on his Landrover to see if it has enough cranking power.
If it has the power to crank over the engine I will be happy to pay for the cost of the cells plus shipping.
If it performs no better than the Headway cells and can't crank the engine then I propose that you pay the cost of the cells plus shipping (I will send you an invoice).
That way Jeremy you can "put your money where your mouth is" and so if you are wrong then Spacey will be happy with a good car starting battery.
If I am found to be wrong and the LiFeTech battery has the same or lower starting power than the Headway battery then I bear the full cost.
Of course both batteries need to be tested side by side starting the engine so we can all see the difference (if any).
It can't be a fairer challenge than that.

The video should be fun to watch no matter what the result!

I have seen enough of these batteries to see what they can do. I supplied two of these only a few weeks ago to an aircraft owner for a couple of his aeroplanes and he is very happy with the engine starting performance for his aircraft compared with his original lead acid cranking battery.
The battery starting my Subaru was a test before I shipped this battery to Italy where it was used as a motorcycle starting battery to start an 1100cc Aprilia motorbike owned by a guy who was sick of his Odessey battery not having enough cranking power in sub zero temperatures in the middle of winter in the alps in Italy. The bike owner is extremely happy with the battery performance and I figure the 8 cell (twice the power) LiFeTech battery will be able to start the Landrover better than the Headway battery.

I frankly don't care about what does and doesn't work, Amin, I'm just excessively pissed off at you taking any and every opportunity posting on threads about other manufacturers batteries just to advertise the merits (or otherwise) of your stuff.

If you're selling a > 45C battery, then great, stick it in the for sale section and maybe people will buy it, just stop taking over other threads with yet more sales BS please.

Jeremy

BMI said:

If it performs no better than the Headway cells and can't crank the engine then I propose that you pay the cost of the cells plus shipping (I will send you an invoice).

Click to expand...

That's brain-damaged... somebody should pay for duff cells?

hArmin should simply post a 500A load-test video in the for-sale section; and stay out of the rest of the board.

$50

Calm down guys.

BTT:

Is there any experience about charging LiFePo4 round cells (4s) with a car alternator / motorcycle reg/rec?

I can't spare the money currently to go all-electric, but I am in a mood to try Headways (as I know a guy who has some) as a replacement for a 7Ah SLA motrocycle starter battery.

I just fear they might overcharge and go boom...right under my ass!

FYI: one-way commute is 56km, 2/3 motorway or 3-lane, rest Dublin city traffic
http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/detail/378249.html

I'm testing some dewalt A123 cells in a snowmobile at the moment, no voltage regulation and no protection of any sorts, so far so good ( only been out for 2 runs so far ), but i am told at -15 celcius it would not kick over using a 2P ( 4.6ah ) pack.. (* 800cc 2 stroke Bombardier motor )..

"Located in Kildare, Ireland - anyone else nearby? "

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