12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.

12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby dogman dan » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:29 pm

This list is intended for lipo newbies, who want to run a typical bike kit controller on 12s 10 ah lipo. So that's your generic 36-48v controller.

First off, you can buy whatever c rate lipo you like. The better the battery you get the better, so go as high c rate as you can afford. If you are on a budget, the 20c ones will do fine. More impotantly, buy one that's in stock. Don't even click buy on out of stock batteries. Turnigy or Zippy, whatever is in stock, and in your budget.

So you want 44v 10 ah. Buy 4 5000 mha (5 ah) 6s bricks.

You want to monitor voltage while you ride. This is the cheapest way. Buy two. Low voltage warning light that goes off at 3.75v. At 3.5v it beeps at ya. Some soldering required. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=7227


You might want to monitor with these, for cell level monitoring. If so, buy two. Handy to have one, in any case. No soldering. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=10952

At the moment the beepers are out of stock, so buy something similar that is in stock. Or hunt them down somewhere other than HK.

Now you want to connect it up. What connector you use is highly personal, and may also depend on whether you want a permanently paralelled pack or not.

So get out your thinking cap, and figure out what you want. What connector, connect permanent, or connect temporary. You want to end up with two packs of lipo, consisting of two packs connected paralell. You can cut the wires, and solder them together so two packs have one of the bullet connectors of each color instead of 2 pairs. Or you can make up a paralell harness that any lipo brick can be connected to, using the same bullet connectors. Or you can cut off all the connectors, and install your favorite type of connector. Maybe andersons, Maybe something else. If permanently paralelling the batteries, then you would want to connect all the balance wires similarly. Most just use some solder and heat shrink. Or you could make a jumper with a male jst plug on each end. Many many variations.

Next you want to series connect the packs. With andersons you would need no special harness, just connect red to black. With other types of connector that are polarized, you'd have to make up a special adapter.

So you want some more connectors and wire for that method. You may need additional wire to reach your controller location, and that could be built into a series connect harness. You may want to attach your lv warning devices to the harness, or you may want to plug them into your balance plugs. In any case, you may need wire and more connectors of some kind to reach the location you plan to mount the device on the bike.

No way can I tell you what to buy exactly, since there are a lot of connector types, and strategies for permanent or temporary paralell connections. There are threads that show what I have done, in the lipo noob links thread.

Now to charging. Again, a zillion ways to do it, but I recomend two chargers. That way, when you disconnect your pack to charge, you can charge both packs at the same time, with a simple plug it in operation. One S350 Meanwell power supply is a great start. Buy the right voltage for your charger. Many use 12-18v power, others use 24v. The meanwell is a 350 watt supply, so now select two chargers of up to 150 watts each. That way the power supply puts out 350 watts and your chargers are taking 300. Make sure whatever connector you put on the packs, you buy some more, to put on the charger.
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby jmygann » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:57 am

thanks for posting this ... exactly what this noob is trying to do

want to start with 10 Ahr (4-6s) and add 4 more later (20Ahr) and eventually have one charger to charge the entire pack.

would be really nice to have just one plug in .
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby dogman dan » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:10 pm

Yeah, one plug is nice. But two is not so bad. Try 10 sometime, sooner or later, you misconnect, and fry a connector, or even a whole pack.

If you bulk charge with the TP packs boards, then you get just one plug. But first you have to assemble the boards and solder em. No thanks.

Coming soon, another thread showing a more permanently paralelled pack, with no soldering.
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby SamTexas » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:15 pm

Given the number of people using LiPo in ebikes application, I wonder why NO ONE has developed a user friendly commercial pack with BMS and charger? It's just a matter of shielding the complexity (reads boring, tedious, error prone and potential danger) from user, right?

Cost difference asides, why CAN'T I buy a LiPo pack (37V 10Ah or whatever) ready for use like I can with a LiFePO4 pack?
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby dogman dan » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:10 am

Because there is perhaps a few hundred of us putting RC lipo on a bike, and only in the last few years or so.

VS millions of customers using these batteries in RC devices, as the batteries were designed for.

I bet 4 buck gas makes buying lipo or lifepo4 hard to get this summer though. At least this time it's not an olympic summer in china. :roll:
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby jmygann » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:52 pm

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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby wineboyrider » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:48 pm

If you bulk charge with the TP packs boards, then you get just one plug. But first you have to assemble the boards and solder em. No thanks.


You really hate soldering don't you Dogman?
8) 8)
I bought and soldered up Garys board and built me a 12s 20.3 ah pack and love it. I sometimes break up the pack into a 6s lipo booster pack for my ping. But, I hardly use the ping now that I have my lipos...
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby jmygann » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:15 pm

any pics ?
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby AussieJester » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:56 pm

dogman wrote:
If you bulk charge with the TP packs boards, then you get just one plug. But first you have to assemble the boards and solder em. No thanks.


Dogman... you dont need TP Pack paralel adapter boards to bulk charge you also can buy them from another member here already assembled (my apologies to thast member his
nick eludes me at this time
) so no soldering required either way, they have nothing to do with bulk charging
please get that straight.

The boards are for paralleling the balance taps of the packs only and of course they do offer an LVC feature. Besides the point
They aren't at all needed if you just want to bulk charge the pack with a rc charger or a meanwel. You dont have to parallel
the balance taps to bulk charge. It is however easier to keep an eye on multiple packs if balance taps are paralleled rather than doing
what your advising and checking them all individually. Its a convenience thing and with the LVC feature does what all your multiple little buzzer
things you suggest to buy do and you dont have to unplug all the buzzers to check the balance of your packs cell groups..

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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby wineboyrider » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:21 am

(my apologies to thast member his
nick eludes me at this time)

Geoff
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby dogman dan » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:49 am

Once again, caught talking about someting I don't understand. keep giving me the dope slap when I need it. AJ

All you readers must understand the way a dummy like me does it is not the BEST way, just one of many ways to configure lipo packs. So I'm showing the way I could understand easy, and maybe don't have to solder stuff, but not the best or most convenient way. A BIG part of why I do it the way I do, is that I have many many ebikes, and run them at everything from 36v -100v. So I actually need to do it the slightly harder way so I can make up the battery to the desired voltage and size for the ride I am taking at the moment. Somebody with one bike and one battery would be more inclined to build a permanent pack, and bulk charge it.

Mostly now that I have a set of trusted broken in packs, I just monitor total pack voltage with a CA or a simple voltmeter. I trust that I can go from A-B because I know I have the range, and don't do much fiddling with lvc plugs at all. I just ride, and don't let voltage fall too far without investigating why.

Don't they also sell someting for bulk charging that partners with the lvc boards?

What is needed for bulk charging, that is, charging without sitting there watching the packs charge? The info is there buried in many threads, but somebody that does know could start a noobs thread explaining it in detail, then link it in the lipo noobs thread.

Anyway, I find breaking a simple pimple 12s pack into two pieces to charge so easy I don't get the need to bulk charge a pack that simple. I really like the way you can see exactly what is going on while charging with the lipo chargers, especially if you plug in the balance taps. Big improvement over the typical lifepo4 charger, with a light that turns green if you got a full charge, or also truns green if you got no charging at all.

Once you get into packs with three, four, five paralelled groups of packs, then bulk charging starts to appeal a lot more of course. My use of lipo is strictly weekend fun too, so a bit of plugging and unplugging stuff is not bothering me at all. For the daily grind to work I still use my two ping lifepo4's, and will be for about 5 more years at this rate. I have about 15000 miles to go to wear em out.

As for the paralell boards. They are nice , I have one. Again, many many ways to manage the lipo. I was just trying to show one of the cheapest ways.

Yes, I really hate anything I suck at, like soldering, and welding. Most of my difficulty with soldering is a lack of the proper tools, and inability to see what I'm doing with grain of rice size stuff. Starting to hate threading a needle now.

I am also liking crimping connectors a lot, once I aquired that skill. The really good Ypedal tutorial on it is in the lipo noobs links. I have found those crimp sleeves for big wire a really nice thing to work with. Good crimps really work well.
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby jmygann » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:47 pm

If just doing a balance charge ....

would this not work for 4-6 6s packs ... might take longer than a bulk charge , but would work .. right ?

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... ucts_id=59


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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby docnjoj » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:48 pm

Yep it sure would! You could do up to 6 batteries with one of those. I got some from EPBuddy a while back in prep for the coming Lipo purchases. Just haven't done it yet.
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby jmygann » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:36 pm

so a charger like this would do it ? ....

how many amps in a balance charge ?

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http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... ucts_id=31
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby AussieJester » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:57 pm

jmygann wrote:so a charger like this would do it ? ....

how many amps in a balance charge ?

Image

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... ucts_id=31



Use that to balance only
it would take a week to charge using that, DONT CHARGE VIA BALANCE TAPS they are for balancing use only. You will rarely if ever need to balance th pack anyway if you dont totally discharge your packs.... Make a parallel harness like this for your main discharge wires from the packs i.e parallel them all and plug them into a high output rc charger or psu like a meanwel (set to the pack voltage your charging) . It's to simple i can't understand why people are getting confused and over this stuff. im an electrical retard if i can sort this out anyone can.

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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby jmygann » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:42 pm

AussieJester wrote:.. Make a parallel harness like this for your main discharge wires from the packs i.e parallel them all and plug them into a high output rc charger or psu like a meanwel (set to the pack voltage your charging) . It's to simple i can't understand why people are getting confused and over this stuff. im an electrical retard if i can sort this out anyone can.

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"like this " ????
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby floatingdog » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:49 am

I understand how bulk charging cells in series with a weak cell can cause the strong cells to be overcharged due to the average voltage being the cut off trigger for the charger. Will overcharging not also happen when parallel charging cells that include a weak cell? Does the charger cut off when the first cell in the paralleled group hits the target voltage? I've read a lot of noob threads, but have never gotten a grip on this point.

Thanks!
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby NeilP » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:52 am

Any cells that are in parallel 'self balance' ..because they are all in parallel, they MUST have the same voltage across them all..... So what happens is that if you get one weak cell in a parallel string...it does pull the voltage of all the cells in the string down, so yes overcharging and damage to the good cells in a parallel string is possible. Would be very bad if one of the parallel cells got an internal short...I am sure you can imagine what would happen.

In series each cell can have a different voltage ...in parallel that cant happen. In this post Aussie Jester says that did not happen in his case...but has not explained further yet as to why or how. I cant see (looking at the parallel diagram below) how different cells in the parallel arrangement can end up with different voltages as AussieJester suggested happened to his pack...Unless of course he was then discconnecting the individual cells first and then measuring their voltages.

Bear in mind...I have never even connected up my parallel pack yet...or even had a running e-bike. I am just going from what I have read on here and from knowing some basic electircs




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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby neptronix » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:07 am

more accurately, the weak cells will be charged by the stronger ones.
The will drag the stronger ones down, but as you have more stronger packs paralleled, the effect on the stronger cells becomes more and more minimal as each cell has to send the weak cell less AH..

If we are talking about lipo, there is a large variation of voltage at the bottom and top of the cell's voltage range, but in the middle it is very fuzzy.

Large parallel packs are certainly the way to go.
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby NeilP » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:19 am

Am just waiting to build mine...Waiting on the casings to build the box...the HK order arrived yesterday...10 Gauge silicone and bullet connectors....but I did not order enough 10 gauge wire..just 2 meter of red and black...going to need more...arhh another wait for postage from China
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby neptronix » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:27 am

NeilP wrote:Am just waiting to build mine...Waiting on the casings to build the box...the HK order arrived yesterday...10 Gauge silicone and bullet connectors....but I did not order enough 10 gauge wire..just 2 meter of red and black...going to need more...arhh another wait for postage from China


my recommendation is to just use something else.. the turnigy wire looks like aluminum.. i won't use it personally. If you were in America you could have mine.. lol.
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby Haste » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:25 am

So the white balance tabs are only ever used when balance charging? Which is done every 10 rides or so? The charger I'm looking at now says it balances too but it has no white balance tab port?

How much range out of 12s1p lipo pack on 9c 9207 with 25a controller?
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby NeilP » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:13 am

If you are using a 1 parallel setup, then yes you only use the balance tabs when you balance charge..... unless you have aBMS board that monitors cell voltages as you ride

Also,used if you are running packs in parallel,and then you connect the balancetabs of each parallel block of batteries,
You then bulk charge with those balance tabs still connectex together
Even if you balance charge a multiple parallel pack, you can leave the individual packs balance leads paralled up and connect the combined balance lead to the charger balance port
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby dogman dan » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:40 am

Balances without a balance port? What charger is this? A 1s charger?

A regular charger can balance only if it has the bms connected to the battery. In some cases, like a ping, the bms is part of the battery. In lipo, the part of the bms used for charging is part of the charger. So it must be connected to all the cells to balance them.

Range on 12s 1p will depend of course on your speed. At 25 mph, it will be not much more than 6 miles. But you really don't want to be discharging that deep all the time, so 4 miles more like it if you ride WOT.

Personally, I am seeing some very early death of a few cells in the packs I bought first, and did a too many 100% discharges. Packs I bought later and never took to 100% are doing better.
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Re: 12s lipo noob shopping list. 44v lipo battery.

Postby Haste » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:27 pm

So if I get an icharger 1010b, I would just need a 400w psu to be safe. Now this charger comes with a board and can charge up to 10a(2p). So first plug in my battery monitors, to check the cells. Then parralle 2 packs together, plug them in the board and balance charge. For about 2 weeks after this I can charge both from the actual battery charge chords from the icharger, and leave that balance and white tabs alone other than to balance charge.

How to connect 2 6s into 2p?
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