== 2100Wh 432 konion MAKITA cells project == 16 june 2008

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== 2100Wh 432 konion MAKITA cells project == 16 june 2008

Post by Doctorbass » Nov 28 2007 9:31pm

. == 2100Wh 432 kinion cells project ==

In the last weeks, i have been talking alot about a new pack made of cells that i got from the 50 lasts Makita pack 3Ah 18V (the Konion)

In this post, i would like to share you the developpment of that big battery pack.



Why doing it?:

There are two mains reasons why i decided to built this pack. the main is that i had acces to many free deffective/used makita pack that i want to give a second life. Each of these pack have generaly 75% of the cells that are great. The service center guys said it's often the first paralleled group of cell that die.
The second reason is a project that i want to accomplish on the next summer. I would like to make a trip of 210km (no predaling) to go to visit some memorable people in my College at La Pocatière in the east of Quebec city. I've calculated that i would need at least 2000Wh to do that.

Why that kind of cell?
Alot of people know me about the dewalt a123 cells. I have been using those from many month and i'm pretty satisfied of those. But they are not the only one. They are made by Sony and are called Konion cell. They are labled US 18650V.. mostly 18650V. After finding alot of info about those on some RC forum and some german website, i discovered that they have multiple avantages. They are SAFE.. no explosion, fire.. etc. their rating are:

-3.7V (charge to 4.2V max 3C)
-1600mAh
-10C
-800+cycle life
-30mohm
-NO NEED OF BALANCING!

They have advantages close to the A123 but they no need Balancing!


Let's go back in time:

In the begining of september I began to rassemble the Makita pack and i began to dissassemble those. Curiously they use the same t-10 screw than the dewalt pack :) each days, the dissassembling of these pack become easier and faster. For every pack i needed to remove the dust, wood/metal particules, the thermal protection circuit, wires and finally removing the bad cells after measuring their voltage.
Most of the time, the voltage of the bad(s) cell(s) was 0.000.. so that is evident to find.


In mid-september, i began to charge fully each cells. The pack are made of 5s 2p cells and after removing the bad 1s2p group i precharged each 1s2p to 4.2V until they reach the 100mA cuttoff (50mA per cell). I choosed to charge each 1s2p group independently instead of charging each 4s2p to 16.8V to avoid problem in case where the capacity of one 1s2p of the 4s2p could have decreased and resulting in a prematured imbalance. It toke several hour to charge !! Let's say around 1h per 2 cells at 3hour a day after the job.. during the weekend...


In october, i began to use my RC charger (The MegaPower 960-SR) A very complete battery charger and analyzer ! Due to the very variable cycle life and past life conditions of each 18V Makita pack , i absolutly need to match perfectly all the cells to create all the parallel group that will be put in serie. To make the caracterisation of each cells i need to measure the internal resistor and the capacity of each cell. A VERY VERY VERY LONG JOB TO DO !! :!:


Today, I have 122 cells out of 360 that are fully measured. I should finish that between January and February.

I have not completly decided what should be the final configuration of the battery pack. That will depend on what speed i will decide to use during the travel of 210km. I would like a tradeoff between a decent speed to have fun during this trip, and not too much to avoid getting a poor milleage (wh/km). i am thinking about a 74V/27Ah (20s18p) or maybe 60v33Ah (16s22p)

The Cells matching
This afternoof at my job, i meet my good friend Eric that is a good programmer (mathlab, vis basic, c++..etc) and we discussed to a great and fast way to calculate the best cells matching. He could create for me a software that calculate all the hard and long stuff for me.

The goal about that will be to get the same total capacity and internal resistor between each parallel groups (the 18p or 22p).

I found that the internal resistor have no a defined and precise relationship with capacity, so i need to take account of each of the two value of each cell.

We have been think about a way to give a single value for each cells to facilitate the calculation for the matching that cold be like a energy value or a rate value.

Normally, the best cell should have:

-a high capacity
-a low internal resistor

Both of these value can be convereted into one unique value.
But how?

Maybe the Wh value is a direct and proportionnel result of that...?

In this case i could only match each group to get the same Wh... that would be easy..

Maybe i can't...

Tonight i'm testing 5 of the tested cells that have the same mAh value but that have different internal resistance.

I would try to findout if their Wh can be proportional with the internal resistance or not.

Normally, i assume that the higher the internal resistor, the higher we get the heat loss during discharging or charging. I expect that this will be revelated with these test and that the cells with lower internal resistor will have less wh.

What is difficult is to measure the thrue internal resistance because in my lab, if the temperature change, the internal resistance change too ! ! so i need to wait until the temp become stable since i comeback from the job and the electronic thermostat rise the temp at 16h and get stabilised at around 18h30...

That's the part i'm working now.

I hope to get the answer for tomorrow.

Doc
Last edited by Doctorbass on Oct 25 2011 1:41am, edited 8 times in total.
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Post by Doctorbass » Nov 29 2007 9:27am

I had news from my friend Eric about a software to calculate the best way to match each of the cells to form the pack.

Well.. we will need to make some compromise. supposing that we use a (P4 3Ghz) to calculate each possibility of each 180 cell pair to be matched with each others, that would take many decade longer than the age of the univers!!!! :shock: It exist 3.9931e+226 way to mount 22 packs having 8 cell pair, if we use 180 of these pair!


So we will need to keep us satisfied with few of the best way... and not the better way to match these... :lol:

Doc
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Post by Ypedal » Nov 29 2007 9:40am

Great work doc !!!!

Hey.. would you trade Konion cells for Emoli's ? :D

I think lower internal resistance will result in the cells recharging faster, reaching 4.2v before the higher internal resistance.

As you said, the temperature will also make a difference, so keep this in mind when you build the packs, the cells stuck in the middle will be hotter than the cells on the edge..

Keep up the good work !
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Post by steveo » Nov 29 2007 11:54am

Hey doc

could you please elaborate on

how i can mesure

-a high capacity
-a low internal resistor

can a multimeter be used? please in layman term if possible...
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Post by vanilla ice » Nov 29 2007 1:20pm

Doctorbass wrote: supposing that we use a (P4 3Ghz) to calculate each possibility of each 180 cell pair to be matched with each others, that would take many decade longer than the age of the univers!!!! :shock:
Doc
Rent some time on a Russian mafia bot net, that should take care of this problem. Distributed computing FTW.

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Post by OneEye » Nov 29 2007 3:00pm

Your programmer friend needs to look at some more elegant solution algorithms. He is going with gross permutations. You can use some sorting, filtering and just a bit of randomness to get an >almost< optimum combination in a miniscule fraction of the time and computational effort. Being within a few percent of optimum matching will be better than your other performance variables (air pressure that day, wind speed, how much you ate for breakfast, etc.)

I think the traveling salesman problem set is somewhat related to yours, but there are a few simplifying conditions in your problem.

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Post by Doctorbass » Nov 29 2007 5:17pm

OneEye wrote:Your programmer friend needs to look at some more elegant solution algorithms. He is going with gross permutations. You can use some sorting, filtering and just a bit of randomness to get an >almost< optimum combination in a miniscule fraction of the time and computational effort. Being within a few percent of optimum matching will be better than your other performance variables (air pressure that day, wind speed, how much you ate for breakfast, etc.)

I think the traveling salesman problem set is somewhat related to yours, but there are a few simplifying conditions in your problem.
Eric is now working on some filtering like you suggest. i'm confident that he will find a great solution 8)

Doc
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by Doctorbass » Feb 18 2008 6:13pm

----update 18 feb 2008----

I left my 2kWh battery pack few week without working on it.. i had to work on dewalt shipping + my new DC-DC charger project (still in progress)

I have now 174 cells tested out of 360... that's very long!! but i hope to have finished that in the next two month.

I finally found the real complete spec sheet of those here:
http://trgovina.mibomodeli.si/artikli_slike/BMZ1600.pdf

Here are some pics of it..

Doc :mrgreen:
Attachments
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C and Ri comparaison graph of all cells.JPG
here is a graph i do to have an idea of the overall cells health conditions
C and Ri comparaison graph of all cells.JPG (43.06 KiB) Viewed 4536 times
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by Link » Feb 18 2008 6:42pm

Unknown wrote:Sitting on that many batteries is a sex crime in some states
8)
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by recumbent » Feb 18 2008 7:11pm

Wow, that's a lot of cells Doc.
Are you going to fit those batteries into a carrier on your bike for the 210 km trip this summer?
Sounds like a fun adventure.
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 12 2008 12:43pm

:shock:

Hey guys! my makita local service center guy gaved me 50 more pack! and he sait he have 2 times that quantity for the next time i go to see him!..

it seems that i could reproduce the Tesla roadster battery pack of 6831 cells soon with a rate like that!!

I have now 320 cells out of 360 tested from my first 50 packs

I plan to finish it this week. My Friend Eric will create using Mathlab a software to calculate the best match for capacity and Internal resistance for my 18x20p.

BUT.. now i have 50 more pack (around 350 more cells!!!!)

I just wonder if i increase my pack to 4kWh instead of 2 and again wait to test these too?...

with 4kwh (65lbs of battery i would need to put some in a packsack or a trailer and some in the bike!

well 4kWh would be 100km at 40Wh/km at 65kmh!! or 400km! at 25kmh at 10wh/km..

Doc
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by EMF » Mar 12 2008 3:46pm

Doctorbass wrote::shock:

Hey guys! my makita local service center guy gaved me 50 more pack! and he sait he have 2 times that quantity for the next time i go to see him!..
Doc
Hmmz...although I am quite jealous, I also have a funny feeling something is wrong due to the sheer number of packs they are getting! I wonder what kills all these cells..low voltage? Or something else.

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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 12 2008 4:45pm

EMF wrote:
Doctorbass wrote::shock:

Hey guys! my makita local service center guy gaved me 50 more pack! and he sait he have 2 times that quantity for the next time i go to see him!..
Doc
Hmmz...although I am quite jealous, I also have a funny feeling something is wrong due to the sheer number of packs they are getting! I wonder what kills all these cells..low voltage? Or something else.

I got exactly 73 pack. 43x 18V 3Ah and 20x 18V 1.5Ah pack for a total of 66lbs!


After dissassembling many of these pack around 70 from now (i've keept 55 good one) and testing more than 360 cells 2 at a time, i begin to know much more about the Makita li-ion pack! 8)

First of all, in each 3Ah pack it have 5s2p cells. AND the first 1s2sp group IS ALWAYS the one that broke.. i mean.. TOTALLY DEAD! 0.00000000000000000volts

the rest of the 8 cells are ok. it is du to a bad thermal management inside the pack. the bad cells are the one that always be hotter than the rest and they have a shortened life because of that.

each pack give me 8 good cells that have around 200-300 good cycles left... and FREE...

I spend ALOT... ALOOOOOOT of time to dissassemble, test and note parameter of all them that is taking me more than 150hours of capacity test for the first 360 cell pack!

What is the price is my personal work time..

if i would buy each cells that would cost me around 2000$

Doc
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 12 2008 4:51pm

While testing all these cells, i really begin to think that thece cells dont need balancing circuit if they can have a great thermal management in the pack.

the makita pack HAVE NO EQUALIZING CIRCUIT FOR BALANCING THE CELLS INSIDE !! 5s2p WITH A 0V and a +18V wire + a temp sensor.. nothing more..

i will carefully test with my 18p20s without balancing the pack and if after many cycles the pack stay balanced, i will definitively conclude THAT THE SONY KONION CELLS DO NOT NEED BALANCING!!!

-SAFE,
-10C (15A)
-cheap 8)
- N O B L A N C I N G ! ! ! :mrgreen:

I would really love that... no more problem like the A123 about balancing...

Doc
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by fechter » Mar 13 2008 9:03am

That's a lot of batteries, Doc.

Do you know what chemistry those are? Must be different than old-school Li-Co.

Can they really handle 5C discharge?

Seems like Makita should locate the temperature sensor on that first group?
Maybe not, otherwise your supply of free batteries might dry up :twisted:
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 13 2008 11:03am

fechter wrote:That's a lot of batteries, Doc.

Do you know what chemistry those are? Must be different than old-school Li-Co.

Can they really handle 5C discharge?

Seems like Makita should locate the temperature sensor on that first group?
Maybe not, otherwise your supply of free batteries might dry up :twisted:
They are LI ion Manganese.

model 18650V made by Sony

Here is their real spec sheet: http://trgovina.mibomodeli.si/artikli_slike/BMZ1600.pdf

And some review:
http://www.physorg.com/pdf2310.pdf

They are not 5C BUT 10C each cell. and have about 30miliohm compare to the A123 at 10miliohm but better than the li-co 18650 with 110-150miliohm! and 2C.

I already pull more than 15C on a cell.. no fire happened.. but it heated up fast. at 10C they are safe

that would mean that you only need 3 in parallel to hold a 40A controller and motor... not bad

At 5.5Wh per cell for 44g it is more energy density than the A123

Like i said, in the makita pack they have no circuit for monitor or balancing cells.. no wire between cells serie tab...

They have a temperature sensor at 70 degreeC on the middle cell.

Above 50 degreeC they dont like that.. not for danger.. but that reduce their life performance very rapidly.


I really think they are a good compromize from the A123 because:

-They are safe no fire
-I tend to conclude that they self balance!(with all test i did)
-more energy/kg than the A123
-cheap 4$/cell
-can be abused up to 10C (1250W/kg)
-they can charge to 5A(i tested that) but they say max 3A/cell
-Standard format.. can replace old 18650..
-3.7V instead of 3.3V.... = less cells to get high volt

-easy for me to find!

Doc
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project ==

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 16 2008 9:08pm

Update 16 april 2008


My friend finally finalized the cell matching program that he is working on.

Results!! over 360 cells on a 20p 18s, the capacity difference between every 18p group is just : 6.4598mAh !!!

And the total delta internal resistance over every 20p group is: 0.0090248 miliohm !!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


From now the version is only runing on Mathlab... but i will find someone that would translate it to an executable. any interested of that job :wink: pm me!

see the graph below:

- the blue one is the number of time that each cells (on X axis) had been changed of parallel group in the simulation.

- the other graph with the 4 decreasing slope represent the delta value of capacity and RI over all the cells for each new iteration that the program calculate... you can see that it decrease every time a new move is done.

-the graph with the red and blue curve represent the capacity and the ri of each 18p parallel group. the red curve is before the optimiaation and the blue is after the optimization!!

STD mean the difference of value over all parallel group.

impressive right?!!

with a balanced pack like that i'm sure that the pack life will last many hundred cycles!

I will plan to assemble all the cells in the next 2 weeks.


Doc
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project == UPDATE 16 april 2008

Post by PerplexArt » Apr 16 2008 9:13pm

Great Job Doc. Al inspiring.

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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project == UPDATE 16 april 2008

Post by steveo » Apr 17 2008 3:17pm

Can't wait to see this in your ev application doc!

pm sent for mathlab program

-steve :D
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project == UPDATE 16 april 2008

Post by lawsonuw » Apr 17 2008 11:07pm

http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/ If your Matlab script isn't using any of the odd matlab tool boxes this open source clone may be a way to let other people use your pack matching script.

Marty

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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project == UPDATE 16 april 2008

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 18 2008 6:48pm

lawsonuw wrote:http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/ If your Matlab script isn't using any of the odd matlab tool boxes this open source clone may be a way to let other people use your pack matching script.

Marty
I think Eric, My frined that programmed it used the optimyze fonction... not sure..
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-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
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Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project == UPDATE 16 april 2008

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 18 2008 6:53pm

Here are the lasy cell optimization for placement to the right s-p group these number are the cell numbers i gaved to them when i tested them. (Pack cap mean parallel group pack) STD mean standard deviation ratio (delta from the mean)

THAT'S 6.5mA deviation out of 23120 total mA !!! less than 0.00028 = 0.028% variation capacity from one parallel group to the next!!

Pack 1 : 3 9 66 100 130 148 155 170 -> Pack Cap= 23126, RI=3.310
Pack 2 : 2 57 70 84 111 112 127 166 -> Pack Cap= 23126, RI=3.306
Pack 3 : 5 27 81 91 131 133 141 163 -> Pack Cap= 23121, RI=3.318
Pack 4 : 39 68 71 83 90 92 119 175 -> Pack Cap= 23114, RI=3.311
Pack 5 : 32 45 55 106 116 149 150 171 -> Pack Cap= 23124, RI=3.328
Pack 6 : 10 20 40 58 61 67 140 172 -> Pack Cap= 23121, RI=3.313
Pack 7 : 14 17 22 63 126 146 158 164 -> Pack Cap= 23105, RI=3.335
Pack 8 : 11 49 59 82 86 93 107 139 -> Pack Cap= 23118, RI=3.316
Pack 9 : 29 65 72 88 117 121 132 156 -> Pack Cap= 23113, RI=3.313
Pack 10 : 4 16 30 76 79 143 157 165 -> Pack Cap= 23114, RI=3.322
Pack 11 : 48 51 87 115 138 159 160 174 -> Pack Cap= 23121, RI=3.308
Pack 12 : 6 23 46 80 98 105 129 162 -> Pack Cap= 23118, RI=3.324
Pack 13 : 33 53 75 95 96 135 145 173 -> Pack Cap= 23121, RI=3.328
Pack 14 : 1 8 44 54 85 97 120 142 -> Pack Cap= 23126, RI=3.299
Pack 15 : 25 34 38 41 50 56 99 176 -> Pack Cap= 23129, RI=3.304
Pack 16 : 7 28 35 37 64 118 128 152 -> Pack Cap= 23120, RI=3.315
Pack 17 : 24 42 52 62 101 103 137 151 -> Pack Cap= 23128, RI=3.314
Pack 18 : 12 36 47 78 125 136 144 161 -> Pack Cap= 23135, RI=3.311
Pack 19 : 21 26 94 102 110 113 124 147 -> Pack Cap= 23120, RI=3.318
Pack 20 : 15 18 60 69 123 134 167 168 -> Pack Cap= 23121, RI=3.320
Pack 21 : 13 19 43 73 77 104 153 154 -> Pack Cap= 23123, RI=3.329

All packs Mean Cap= 23121.1, Mean RI=3.3162
All packs Std Cap= 6.5, Std RI=0.0090

FreeCells Set : 169 114 108 122 74 109 31 89

Movements counts :
Pack 1 : 10 2 2 8 3 0 3 6
Pack 2 : 1 0 0 3 2 69 0 0
Pack 3 : 0 6 0 0 2 0 0 0
Pack 4 : 0 0 0 5 6 1 0 4
Pack 5 : 1 15 3 0 0 0 0 4
Pack 6 : 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0
Pack 7 : 49 2 1 0 0 1 1 3
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Doctorbass   100 GW

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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project == UPDATE 16 april 2008

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 25 2008 12:38am

I really feel happy!! I finally begin assembling these MESURED cells!

I did 3 first pack out of 20 (each 1s 16p 25.4Ah 3.7V)

I used some pieces of my large 500MCM cable to link all cells (each sub wires are similar to 12AWG). The stain react nicely with these wires and i need less heat.

I only heat the middle of each strip so the heat do not transfer too much thru the spot weld on the tab.

I'll begin with 20s instead of 24. I rejected some cells that i had doubt on their life cycles... but i have 60lbs of left pack to dissassemble to get some more!! :mrgreen:

Here are some pics:
Attachments
P1040221_1024x768.jpg
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P1040223_1024x768.jpg
P1040223_1024x768.jpg (184.52 KiB) Viewed 2517 times
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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steveo   1 MW

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Joined: Oct 06 2007 3:07pm
Location: Woodbridge, Ontario

Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project == UPDATE 25 april 2008

Post by steveo » Apr 25 2008 2:21pm

Doc that look great!

you and i are along the same lines of how we will assemble the our packs.. i will be using the soderbraid from ebay i bought.. comparable to 10 awg...

what application will this pack be used for ?

-steveo
Repair Thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=27170
Hub Monster bike ~ 24s7p A123 15.4ah/18kv Six Phase Motor/Dual Max-E Adapttos/32kw~42.91Hp/Est 140LBS
X6 Kmx Trike ~ 24s4p 20ah/X6 MHM 602/Infinion EB324 IRFB 4110/20Kw~26.82Hp/Est 120LBS ~SOLD~
Lightening rods bike ~ 18s2p 10ah/1500w Inrunner/Infinion EB312 IRFB4110/2KW~2.68hp/Est 60LBS
EV Outboard ~ 12s8p 40ah/5KW GM Inrunner/Infinion EB324 IRFB 4110/18Hp Evinrude Drive/Est 100lbs
http://www.youtube.com/user/trdfreak03

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Doctorbass   100 GW

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Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
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Re: == 2000Wh 360 kinion cells project == UPDATE 25 april 2008

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 25 2008 4:20pm

steveo wrote:Doc that look great!

you and i are along the same lines of how we will assemble the our packs.. i will be using the soderbraid from ebay i bought.. comparable to 10 awg...

what application will this pack be used for ?

-steveo
I plan to do 180km only electric in june. i'll go to my old college and show this monster
to my old physic/electrinic teacher and the students.

It's at around 140km by the highway and 180 bu the 90km/h road 132.

A trip of around 5-6hour only electric !

There are some beatifull view on along the Fleuve St-Laurent on that road!

I'll see for some sponsor!
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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