12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Board

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ambroseliao   100 kW

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by ambroseliao » Nov 09 2011 6:01am

CC = charge controller! Thanks Fabio.
Last edited by ambroseliao on Nov 09 2011 9:20am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by fabiograssi » Nov 09 2011 7:31am

ambroseliao wrote:CC = constant current.
I think in this case is "charge controller"...

Fabio

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by fabiograssi » Nov 09 2011 7:32am

Dear Gary:

Did you find a good power supply (or a source) to offer to us?

Fabio

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by Spacey » Nov 09 2011 11:25am

Can I order 2 x 8S and CC kit please. This will be for a Headway 16S 16Ah Pack that has been messed about by 3 x BMS that have broke on me :)

Will also order same for my Lipo set up later.

Can you explain how this would be used with say a KP 8A charger that I use for my bikes? Would the charger + and -just plug into the CC etc?
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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by parabellum » Nov 09 2011 11:57am

izeman wrote:sorry for the dumb question: what does CC stand for?
Charge Controller.

Edit: Ups, there was another page full of answers. :lol:

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by izeman » Nov 09 2011 2:31pm

parabellum wrote:
izeman wrote:sorry for the dumb question: what does CC stand for?
Charge Controller.

Edit: Ups, there was another page full of answers. :lol:
thanks guys :)

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by GGoodrum » Nov 09 2011 3:56pm

Spacey wrote:Can I order 2 x 8S and CC kit please. This will be for a Headway 16S 16Ah Pack that has been messed about by 3 x BMS that have broke on me :)

Will also order same for my Lipo set up later.

Can you explain how this would be used with say a KP 8A charger that I use for my bikes? Would the charger + and -just plug into the CC etc?
Yes, that is correct. The charge controller basically just goes inline, between the charger and the pack.

Still working on the instructions. As soon as I get them done, I'll start taking orders. :)

-- Gary

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by Kirk » Nov 09 2011 4:34pm

Is the 6s BMS Lite kit the same as what is shown on the first page? Where you connect four 6s packs to the board, to make a 12s2p battery w/BMS?
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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by GGoodrum » Nov 26 2011 7:34pm

I'm sorry that I haven't posted much here, but I have been busy, nonetheless. :) I did have a delay for a week, or so, while I did a consulting project, but that is complete. Anyway, I'm ready to at least start offering full kits for the 6s and 8s Embedded BMS "Lite" boards and the standalone Zephyr Charge Controller unit. Here's a shot of what is included for a typical 12s combo:
6s4p Lite BMS-08.jpg
Each board acts as a parallel adapter for up to four 5s, 6s or 8s LiPo packs. The boards are pretty much self-contained, and have LVC protection, and two levels of HVC control. One HVC signal is used as an upper "fail safe" bound for charging, to ensure that no one cell can go over about 4.2V. There are shunt circuits that come on at 4.15V, which allow on-board balancing for each group of paralleled cells. Once all the cells are at this 4.15V balance point, a second HVC signal is triggered which the Charge Controller uses to determine the end-of-charge condition, so it can then shut off the charge current. This is the same Charge Controller that is part of the full-size Zephyr BMS, but it is housed in a small box.

Anyway, like I said, the BMS boards are pretty self contained, and their only interface to the outside of the pack are the two LVC opto wires, and the three HVC lines. These signals are "daisy-chained" between the modules, and then from the first 6s or 8s board in the chain, to a special adapter. This adapter serves two functions. It's main purpose is to combine the HVC signals and the main charge + and - connections to the pack, into a single 7-pin MTA156 connector. There is the same 7-pin MTA156 connector coming out one end of the Charge Controller box. The reason I like these connector type is that it is real easy to make a cable for these. There's no pins to crimp, and you don't even have to strip the wire. The wires simply get pushed into place, using a small flat-blade screwdriver, or by using a $15 T-handle tool that you can get from Mouser or Digikey.
Zephyr Lite Charge Controller-09a.jpg
Zephyr Lite Charge Controller-08a.jpg
The second purpose of this special adapter, is to serve as a convenient way to parallel the LiPo pack main leads. What I usually do is simply connect each LiPo pack in series first, and the only parallel the series string together at the pack level. There are actually three different versions of the special adapter plate, in order to support different pack configurations that have either 4mm or 5.5mm bullet plugs.
6s4p Lite BMS-04a.jpg
6s4p Lite BMS-04a.jpg (170.98 KiB) Viewed 539 times

Anyway, the idea is you can plug the bullet plugs from the series strings of LiPo packs into this adapter. There are large pads also for the main pack discharge leads as well, which can be 8-gauge or 10-gauge in size. Charge current, from the Charge Controller comes in from four of the seven pins on the MTA156 connector.

Here's an illustration that shows how everything for a typical 12s2p setup is connected:
Embedded BMS Lite Connections-v4.5.1-01.png

So, to reiterate, I'm not ready to do fully assembled units right now (maybe after the first of the year...), but I will offer complete kits of all parts, along with a very detailed set of assembly and test instructions,with lots of color pics. :) All you need are some basic soldering skills, as these aren't that hard to build. If someone is interested, I will email/PM them both sets of instructions, so they can gauge the level of complexity.

Here's the price list:
Embedded BMS Lite Pricing Summary.png
Embedded BMS Lite Pricing Summary.png (24.31 KiB) Viewed 1988 times
I have enough parts and boards for a limited number of kits for pretty much any combo listed. I will be ordering more boards/parts on Monday, so don't worry if you don't make the first "batch". More will be available by the end of the week.

5s-based setups are supported as well, as they simply use the same 6s boards. A few parts are left off, a single jumper is installed in the pads labeled "5s" and then 6-pin JST-XH connectors replace the normal 7-pin versions.

Payment is via PayPal. Please add $5 for domestic Priority Mail and $15 for international. You can do a "Send Mpney" option to sales@tppacks.com (please use don't use the "gift" option, as it omits your shipping address...), or you can PM me your PayPal address and I'll send you an invoice/payment request. Please indicate in the comments section what option it is for, and also your E-S user name, if it is not obvious who you are. :) Also, if you do send a payment in, please send me a PM, to let me know.

-- Gary

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by modern_messiah » Nov 26 2011 7:59pm

Forgive my noobness here (and I have been reading this entire thread) but is the idea to shrink wrap the BMS boards with the LiPo packs still there? I'm assuming by calling them 'embedded' that this is still the case, but the boards look a little fragile and after spending the time and money getting a setup working i'd be a tad worried that something would get broken being pulled in tight as would be the case if you heat-shrinked it...or am I just being over protective here?

Either way when I finally get off my bum and build my bike this set up will form the basis of the power arrangement. It's simple, clean, and no doubt robust. Perfect for people like me :D

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by GGoodrum » Nov 26 2011 8:19pm

modern_messiah wrote:Forgive my noobness here (and I have been reading this entire thread) but is the idea to shrink wrap the BMS boards with the LiPo packs still there? I'm assuming by calling them 'embedded' that this is still the case, but the boards look a little fragile and after spending the time and money getting a setup working i'd be a tad worried that something would get broken being pulled in tight as would be the case if you heat-shrinked it...or am I just being over protective here?

Either way when I finally get off my bum and build my bike this set up will form the basis of the power arrangement. It's simple, clean, and no doubt robust. Perfect for people like me :D
Yes, the idea is that these boards can be co-located with the packs, and shrink-wrapped, if desired. I actually build all my packs this way, and have been doing it for awhile now. Here's a shot of one of my 12s2p 44V/10Ah packs:
12s2p LiPo BMS Lite-v4.4.6-01.jpg
12s2p LiPo BMS Lite-v4.4.6-01.jpg (160.13 KiB) Viewed 1893 times
This one has embedded LVC/HVC boards, from the older versions, and even these are very robust. I've never had a failure. The box shown is one of my earlier balancer units. The Charge Controller box is about half that size, and it has a much smaller, 7-wire cable. I actually have this pack apart, at the moment, and I'm replacing the two LVC/HVC boards with the full BMS Lite boards, shown above. These should be even more hearty, as the design is much simpler now, with a lot fewer parts, mainly due to the use of resistor arrays.

Anyway, These packs get banged around quite a bit, and all I do to protect the boards is basically just taped them up, and stick them between the sub-packs, which are facing each other. I then duct tape the whole pack up and finally shrink wrap it. :)

-- Gary

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by richmpdx » Nov 26 2011 10:29pm

Very good news that this is ready to go. Gary, is there a substitute BOM if one wants to build this for LiP04 packs?

Rich

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by GGoodrum » Nov 27 2011 2:14am

richmpdx wrote:Very good news that this is ready to go. Gary, is there a substitute BOM if one wants to build this for LiP04 packs?

Rich
Yes, there's two part changes, one of the resistor arrays, and then the lower voltage TC54 detector chip is used.

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by SamTexas » Nov 27 2011 7:04am

Gary, what changes are needed to support laptop 18650 cells? 18650 cells are also Lithium Cobalt like RC Lipo, but can be discharged down to 3.00V (as opposed to 3.xxV for RC Lipo). Is it just a matter of substituting certain components to lower the LVC? Thanks.

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by GGoodrum » Nov 27 2011 9:37am

SamTexas wrote:Gary, what changes are needed to support laptop 18650 cells? 18650 cells are also Lithium Cobalt like RC Lipo, but can be discharged down to 3.00V (as opposed to 3.xxV for RC Lipo). Is it just a matter of substituting certain components to lower the LVC? Thanks.
Yes, you could simply change out the TC54 detectors for ones that are slightly lower. Normally, we use the 3.0V versions for LiPo, but this is for "under load" conditions. As soon as the load is removed, the "resting" voltage will recover up to about 3.3-3.5V. For LiFePo4, we use the 2.1V chips. When the LVC first "hits" the throttle, you have about 10% of usable capacity left, but you have to back off on the throttle a bit, so that it doesn't keep tripping. This works quite well. I've been using this scheme since 2007. :) Anyway, if you to go lower, with the laptop cells, there is 2.7V version of the TC54.

-- Gary

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by SamTexas » Nov 27 2011 10:49am

GGoodrum wrote:Normally, we use the 3.0V versions for LiPo, but this is for "under load" conditions. As soon as the load is removed, the "resting" voltage will recover up to about 3.3-3.5V.
So that's what you are actually using for the production board? The 3.0V of the TC54 voltage detector? Which one is it? TC54VN (open-drain, 2.9V) or TC54VC (push-pull, 3.0V)?
GGoodrum wrote:Anyway, if you to go lower, with the laptop cells, there is 2.7V version of the TC54.
Excellent! Thank you.

One final (hopefully) question: What is the acceptable voltage range for the charging power supply? Let's say we have a 12s pack. 12*4.15 = 49.8V. So I think the lower limit has to be 49.8V. What about the upper limit? Will 52V work? How about 57V? 57V happens to be three (3) 19.0V laptop power supplies in series.

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by GGoodrum » Nov 27 2011 1:08pm

SamTexas wrote:So that's what you are actually using for the production board? The 3.0V of the TC54 voltage detector? Which one is it? TC54VN (open-drain, 2.9V) or TC54VC (push-pull, 3.0V)?
Actually either the "N" or the "C" version will work fine. The ones I have here are the TC54VN3002EZB-ND.
SamTexas wrote:One final (hopefully) question: What is the acceptable voltage range for the charging power supply? Let's say we have a 12s pack. 12*4.15 = 49.8V. So I think the lower limit has to be 49.8V. What about the upper limit? Will 52V work? How about 57V? 57V happens to be three (3) 19.0V laptop power supplies in series.
Yes, the total charge voltage needs to be at least 49.8V. You can go higher than that, but then the HVC-based power cycling will kick in more often, at the end, so it could take longer to charge. There are a ton of surplus phone equipment 48V supplies out there, and most of these have a voltage adjustment of some sort.

-- Gary

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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by fechter » Nov 27 2011 2:55pm

With a higher supply voltage, the charger will be always running in the constant current mode when on. This shouldn't be a problem as the charge control board will throttle the duty cycle to keep the cells from going over. I don't think it will affect charge time much. The new charge control logic is very tolerant of variations in charger voltage as long as you have enough voltage to reach the set point.
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Re: 12s2p LiPo pack kit including 12-channel BMS "Lite" Boar

Post by GGoodrum » Dec 08 2011 4:07pm

I started a for sale thread over here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 95#p501227

Everything is in stock, and all orders from this point will ship out the same day the order is received, if it is before about 3:00 pm PST.

-- Gary

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