Dow-Kokam (NMC) vs. A123 (LiFePo4) comparative analysis...

S

sangesf

10 kW
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
862
I just ran a cost analysis of DK NMC vs A123 LFP...

(NOT including shipping)
Costs calculated from "Average Price Available" given 1-100 cells..
Given the same WH (Or as close as analysis will allow..)


DK NMC..

Energy: 462.5 WH
(3.7v x 25Ah x 5 cells)

C-Rate: 1-2C given 1200(2C)-2000(1C) cycles
(At end, 80% capacity left in cell)

5C continuous capable / 8C Burst

Weight: 2.8 kilos / 6.16 lbs.

Total Cost: ~ $462.50
($1000 / Kwh or $1.00/WH)


A123 Systems LiFePo4

Energy: 462.0 WH
(3.3v x 20ah x 7 cells)

C-Rate: 1-2C given 2000(2C)-3000(1C) cycles
(At end, 90% capacity left in cell)

10C continuous capable / 20C Burst

Weight: 3.3 kilos / 7.7 lbs.

Total Cost: ~ $138.60
($300 / Kwh or .30c/WH)

What do you all think?

P.S. This is a repost from the "A123" post...
I'm also in the middle of organizing a group buy, so PM if you're interested..

Some points to consider...
Just like the Dow Kokam cells, these will be BARE cells
(No BMS, no charger, etc)

For THIS group buy I'm organizing, it is only for those in the continental US.
(Shipping from overseas to here in the USA and then back out to overseas would , I believe, be cost-preventative, for most).

Shipping and final cost per cell will be determined by how many total cells we purchase and cost of shipping from overseas to Florida to group buy participants.

Shipping from overseas to Florida will be by air and shipping from Florida to wherever will be either parcel post or priority mail, depending on weight/number of cells and cost of shipping the cells out.
(Parcel Post is cheaper but priority mail is faster..)


 
Minor detail, how about Wh/kg and Wh/l data? If I recall A123s are 165 mm wide, 250 mm long and 7.5 mm deep (0.289 litres), but have to check.

I recall it being about 132 Wh/kg and 228 Wh/l.

EDIT: I heard a rumour that Dow Kokam are looking for an Australian Distributor of their cells :twisted:
 
Thought you were done with the forums and were gonna keep all the good stuff to yourself..
Now you want to do a group buy on A123 cells? :roll:
 
Why not remove this post until the ffr trikes group buy is closed tomorrow
Just common respect
 
flathill said:
Why not remove this post until the ffr trikes group buy is closed tomorrow
Just common respect
Click to expand...

What difference does that make?
The FFR group is a reseller.. A group buy between the members here is TOTALLY DIFFERENT.. (As in, there is no profit being made by anyone)

Why not post a comparison?
 
jonescg said:
Minor detail, how about Wh/kg and Wh/l data? If I recall A123s are 165 mm wide, 250 mm long and 7.5 mm deep (0.289 litres), but have to check.
Click to expand...

I didn't want to get that deep into that part of it, as it wasn't relative to cost, per se.
(Although, as you saw, I did put the weights of the comparative WHs in the above data).
 
neptronix said:
Thought you were done with the forums and were gonna keep all the good stuff to yourself..
Now you want to do a group buy on A123 cells? :roll:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the troll, Nep. Much appreciated..
:twisted:
 
sangesf said:
flathill said:
Why not remove this post until the ffr trikes group buy is closed tomorrow
Just common respect
Click to expand...

What difference does that make?
The FFR group is a reseller.. A group buy between the members here is TOTALLY DIFFERENT.. (As in, there is no profit being made by anyone)

Why not post a comparison?
Click to expand...

Just common respect
Obviously anyone on the fence is not going to pull the trigger in the ffr group buy tomorrow
Not a big deal but your raining on their parade at the last minute with only a half baked plan...
And you did swear you were done with endless sphere so it seems kinda shady
 
"Common Respect" for something triple the price and called a group buy but has a profit layer built in??? That deserves zero respect in my view. $1/wh pricing needs to be in pack form with a quality BMS and come with a warranty.
 
flathill said:
Just common respect
Obviously anyone on the fence is not going to pull the trigger in the ffr group buy tomorrow
Not a big deal but your raining on their parade at the last minute with only a half baked plan...
And you did swear you were done with endless sphere so it seems kinda shady
Click to expand...

"Half baked plan".. LOL
As to the "on the fence" people..
I was one of those too (but on a separate NMC group buy) and I stopped the buy to re-focus on the A123 cells..

I am done with "help me fix this" posts as apparently some people on here, just know everything, and why do I need to waste my time helping, if "those" people can do it for me... (As long as it has NOTHING to do with something I've bought or sold).

"Shady"?!?! Any time I've had something to sell or help with a group buy, I've ALWAYS given the EXACT price something could be purchased for, so there's no "mistaking" what the price is going to be. I do "real world" tests and post the findings. (As with group buys, I'm not selling anything). If I have something to sell, I post in the For Sale: section and when sold, I keep in contact with the buyer to make sure they get it, hook it up properly and gve advice as the best way of using said item.
Show me anyone who does that. (In terms of the price of an item) Do any of the sellers here tell you what THEY paid for their items and what the profit they're making off them is?
Of course not. (You'd be surprised the profit some people are making..)

"Raining on their parade".. I'll give an answer to that with the response to JohnInCr's post..
 
John in CR said:
"Common Respect" for something triple the price and called a group buy but has a profit layer built in??? That deserves zero respect in my view. $1/wh pricing needs to be in pack form with a quality BMS and come with a warranty.
Click to expand...

Here, here! That was my thinking too, but didn't want to taint the FFR guy's sale with something that could sound "shady / self serving"... And the ONLY reason I'm even saying that now is that you brought it up and as a response to flathill's post..
(Which, if you want to get "technical" seems "shady" to me, for some reason...)
<sarcasm>
:wink:
 
I tried to scan it's power level, and my scouter exploded.
 
Everyone who's PM'd me (with a confirmed amount of cells wanted/needed), please PM me again with your zip codes..
(Easier to post that here as opposed to sending out a bunch of PMs.)
 
For those who want to see the manufacturer specs...
(I downloaded from A123 and took a screen capture from my iPhone..)

8de300b4.jpg
 
John in CR said:
"Common Respect" for something triple the price and called a group buy but has a profit layer built in??? That deserves zero respect in my view. $1/wh pricing needs to be in pack form with a quality BMS and come with a warranty.
Click to expand...

I can see your guys point if the $1000/kwh is not the price ffr is paying. I assumed they weren't profiting on the group buy because the price is going up once they stock em. I was on the fence too.
 
flathill said:
John in CR said:
"Common Respect" for something triple the price and called a group buy but has a profit layer built in??? That deserves zero respect in my view. $1/wh pricing needs to be in pack form with a quality BMS and come with a warranty.
Click to expand...

I can see your guys point if the $1000/kwh is not the price ffr is paying. I assumed they weren't profiting on the group buy because the price is going up once they stock em. I was on the fence too.
Click to expand...


Without shipping and other fee, it look like 280$ per kWh... !very close to the unbeatable TS cells for the price per Wh...!

Doc
 
Doctorbass said:
Without shipping and other fee, it look like 280$ per kWh... !very close to the unbeatable TS cells for the price per Wh...!
Doc
Click to expand...

Doc,
It says $1/wh in red right in the first post. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36280#p525007 If that includes $.72/wh in shipping and other fees then I'm getting my pitchfork and a torch out of the shed. If you're talking about the A123's, I agree it's a great price, and time for you to go way down on your toolpack pricing. :mrgreen:
 
John in CR said:
Doctorbass said:
Without shipping and other fee, it look like 280$ per kWh... !very close to the unbeatable TS cells for the price per Wh...!
Doc
Click to expand...

Doc,
It says $1/wh in red right in the first post. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36280#p525007 If that includes $.72/wh in shipping and other fees then I'm getting my pitchfork and a torch out of the shed. If you're talking about the A123's, I agree it's a great price, and time for you to go way down on your toolpack pricing. :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


Let see... The dewalt wend down from 70$ per packs in 2007-2008 to 45$ now and 40$ per pack for big qty.. not bad for getting 30C safe cell difficult to puncture!

Doc
 
Is there a date you are shooting for, to make the order ?? I just might double my order to 24 cells.
Depends on shipping cost to your location, not to mine. My Son will probably pick them up.
 
Harold in CR said:
Is there a date you are shooting for, to make the order ?? I just might double my order to 24 cells.
Depends on shipping cost to your location, not to mine. My Son will probably pick them up.
Click to expand...

No date set, per se..
I'm guessing within a week we'll prolly get to the 500 cells that will get us the "best price".
I'm personally in no rush. Others tho... LOL
 
sangesf said:
flathill said:
Just common respect
Obviously anyone on the fence is not going to pull the trigger in the ffr group buy tomorrow
Not a big deal but your raining on their parade at the last minute with only a half baked plan...
And you did swear you were done with endless sphere so it seems kinda shady
Click to expand...

"Half baked plan".. LOL
As to the "on the fence" people..
I was one of those too (but on a separate NMC group buy) and I stopped the buy to re-focus on the A123 cells..

I am done with "help me fix this" posts as apparently some people on here, just know everything, and why do I need to waste my time helping, if "those" people can do it for me... (As long as it has NOTHING to do with something I've bought or sold).

"Shady"?!?! Any time I've had something to sell or help with a group buy, I've ALWAYS given the EXACT price something could be purchased for, so there's no "mistaking" what the price is going to be. I do "real world" tests and post the findings. (As with group buys, I'm not selling anything). If I have something to sell, I post in the For Sale: section and when sold, I keep in contact with the buyer to make sure they get it, hook it up properly and gve advice as the best way of using said item.
Show me anyone who does that. (In terms of the price of an item) Do any of the sellers here tell you what THEY paid for their items and what the profit they're making off them is?
Of course not. (You'd be surprised the profit some people are making..)

"Raining on their parade".. I'll give an answer to that with the response to JohnInCr's post..
Click to expand...

Ypedal wrote:
sangesf wrote:
... while getting no respect... Would rather spend my time helping myself rather than others.

End of line.


If your only reason to be here is to gain " respect " ... you got lots more to learn my friend...


ROTFLMAO..

Like I give a R A what any of you really think..
I don't NEED your respect, never did..
Figured after all I've done for a lot of newbies on here, I'd get more than a continually pompous attitude from 99.9% of the members here..

Close my account. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
sangesf
10 kW

still want your account closed? LOL
 
@flathill ---> Troll +1, good dude...
(Totally irrelevant to the discussion)..

Your posts, so far in this thread, have been nothing but trolls..

Not that it's any of your business, and in case anyone else is wondering, ypedal and me talked about it a bit during that whole escapade, and he calmed me down enough that I (obviously) DIDN'T close my account..

I'll re-iterate...
sangesf said:
I am done with "help me fix this" posts as apparently some people on here, just know everything, and why do I need to waste my time helping, if "those" people can do it for me... (As long as it has NOTHING to do with something I've bought or sold).
Click to expand...

Nothing's changed...

Again, Nice Troll..
 
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