BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » Apr 22, 2014 12:12 am

cal3thousand wrote: End of cycle while "on the road" will be handled by me, so a display or current would be nice
because of this i think the meanwell led supplies are optimal for travelling or even installation to the bike (some are waterproof)
you can simple add a display like this:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 14&t=57195

you will find much more different ones on ebay if you search for "ammeter voltmeter" ;)
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by alsmith » Apr 22, 2014 7:21 am

dnmun wrote:the use of the IGBTs for the switching transistors makes the 1000 more reliable imo too. but on the road nobody waits for the balancing anyway imo. just charge as long as time permits and go.
That's more understandable than the other vague reasons given by others- I hadn't known they were used in this application. Although more expensive they are also more efficient, a better 'no expense spared' solution. These devices have lots of small component parts but are well packaged and are properly assembly line built.
Thanks!

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by GCinDC » Apr 22, 2014 8:14 am

so this is axel's charger that went snap, crackle, pop:


here was a first look when i popped the top:
Image

you can see there were three round black discs - no idea what they're called - that blew. i'm holding half of one at the top of the pic:
Image

and removed, posing here for a family photo:
Image

zoomed out w/ side cover off:
Image

close up of ground zero:
Image

dnum, you sent me three replacement whatchacallits, each with two legs.

seems to me like i need to remove the old legs, and solder the new ones to the board, no?

and it looks like the left legs all get soldered to one spot, and the right legs to the other, so they straddle the resistor like before?

and i better replace that section of the + wire...

still don't understand what the paste you sent is for...
Youtube channel, 2013 Highlights vid. Ebike Nerdcast.
Giant DH Comp: 20s lipo (11.6Ah), hs3540, Adaptto Mini-E, 900W BMSBattery charger.
GT I-Drive (sold), 20s lipo, 9C, 72V 45A 12FET.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by GCinDC » Apr 22, 2014 8:18 am

here's another view:
Image

ps. isn't it bizarre that my other charger (at bottom) doesn't have the whatchacallits?
Image

and close up of mine showing only the resistor under there...
Image
Youtube channel, 2013 Highlights vid. Ebike Nerdcast.
Giant DH Comp: 20s lipo (11.6Ah), hs3540, Adaptto Mini-E, 900W BMSBattery charger.
GT I-Drive (sold), 20s lipo, 9C, 72V 45A 12FET.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by dnmun » Apr 22, 2014 8:46 am

the inrush current limiters ICL are not actually spanning the resistor. the resistor is there to drain the charge off the input capacitors when the power is turned off.

the white paste is silicone heat sink thermal compound for use under the switching transistors if you had to remove them from the heat sink.

i thought this charger was like the 600W but the charger you have is different.

that red input AC wire is ok, they get scorched by the heat of the ICL cooking there all day.

if you can get a toothbrush or small wire brush in there to clean out the carbon, then blow it clean, you will see the traces underneath and the resistor location in the circuit will be more obvious.

not all chargers use an ICL on the input. it depends on how large the inrush current is and how cheap the charger. all have a location for them but most of the kingpan and BMSbattery chargers do not have the ICL, just a short jumper wire.

if you can unsolder the legs of those old ones and pull them out of the pcb while the solder is melted, then you may have some clear holes in the pcb to put the new ICLs. that would make it easier to replace them than having to remove the entire guts to replace them. a solder sucker would help but you can use the soldering iron to get the solder on the holes melted and then whack the end of the case on the bench and the solder will be flung out of the holes and leave them clear so you can insert the new ones.

worst case if things go bad is that you cannot get the holes cleared so you could solder one leg of the ICL to the old leg on the far side away from the red wire, and then solder the other leg to the red wire because that is where the current to the ICL is coming from which you will see in the traces when it is cleaned up enuff to see them. so you could leave that red wire in place, strip the insulation up a little bit from the pcb and stick the legs of the ICL through the stranded wire and solder them together.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » Apr 22, 2014 10:51 am

i now got a reply from evassemble:

the 1200W kp-c charger does not have a PFC. crap!
Im a bit bored right now that i have not ordered another, better charger. Im afraid it will not be very durable..
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by dnmun » Apr 22, 2014 11:13 am

madin88 wrote:i now got a reply from evassemble:

the 1200W kp-c charger does not have a PFC. crap!
Im a bit bored right now that i have not ordered another, better charger. Im afraid it will not be very durable..
i have found the kingpan chargers to be well built. i think you have a false idea of what the power factor correction is.

for industrial AC power the power company will add large capacitor banks to the transformers supplying power to manufacturing facilities that use a large amount of inductive load, motors. this helps bring the current closer in phase to the voltage. so the 'power factor' is improved.

for 120V circuits there is always gonna be current flowing in the neutral wire. often called common.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » Apr 22, 2014 11:47 am

with PFC: almost linear current flow from the socket like a ohmic load (ideal would be factor 1)
without PFC: big current waves/peaks which can disturb or interfer with other electrical devices

its not only a problem for the power companies, it can be also a problem at your place.
in european countries a PFC is duty in every electrical devices since the year 2001. now we have 2014.

for me these chargers are not built well (electrical AND mechanical). nothing more to say.
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by dnmun » Apr 22, 2014 11:57 am

madin88 wrote:with PFC: almost linear current flow from the socket like a ohmic load (ideal would be factor 1)
without PFC: big current waves/peaks which can disturb or interfer with other electrical devices

its not only a problem for the power companies, it can be also a problem at your place.
in european countries a PFC is duty in every electrical devices since the year 2001. now we have 2014.

for me these chargers are not built well (electrical AND mechanical). nothing more to say.
maybe you mean EMI, electromagnetic interference, which the EU has tried to implement regulations against.

do you know of other chargers that are built any differently? there are two types. one uses the npn switching transistors in the front end to make the current oscillate through the transformer and the other type uses a mosfet for switching the current under the control of the IC current controller chip used on the small chargers.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by cal3thousand » Apr 22, 2014 12:46 pm

madin88 wrote:
cal3thousand wrote: End of cycle while "on the road" will be handled by me, so a display or current would be nice
because of this i think the meanwell led supplies are optimal for travelling or even installation to the bike (some are waterproof)
you can simple add a display like this:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 14&t=57195

you will find much more different ones on ebay if you search for "ammeter voltmeter" ;)
This is what I've been needing, thanks!!
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » Apr 22, 2014 3:10 pm

dnmun wrote:maybe you mean EMI, electromagnetic interference, which the EU has tried to implement regulations against.

do you know of other chargers that are built any differently? there are two types. one uses the npn switching transistors in the front end to make the current oscillate through the transformer and the other type uses a mosfet for switching the current under the control of the IC current controller chip used on the small chargers.
no, i do not mean electromagnetic interference. why you do not google "power factor correction"? ;)
evassemble told me the charger i purchased does not have PFC. i think this means they even do not have passive PFC...

every other charger or switching power supply i know does have pfc (it is duty in european countries since 2001). the meanwells also do have such a circuit...
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by dnmun » Apr 22, 2014 5:59 pm

ok, i thought you meant there was electrical noise coming out on the input wires so that why i thought you meant EMI.

i do admit to knowing a little about power factor since i do have a little training, taking grad courses in E&M in physics and EE but i am not familiar with how the power factor correction is handled in the chargers, as i said earlier.

but i did go google up the pfc like you said and ran across the section where they talk about how the power factor has to be actively corrected by adding a boost converter to the rectifier bridge to keep sucking the current out of the AC input in phase with the voltage. did not realize the uncorrected power factor for the SMPS was so low. i figured it had to be higher since efficiency is around 95%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-m ... wer_factor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_fact ... near_loads

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » Apr 22, 2014 11:56 pm

pfc has nothing to do with the efficiency of the device.
of course, for the power companies a supply with pfc is better than one without.
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by dnmun » Apr 23, 2014 12:25 am

that got me reading about the new guidelines for pfc ratings and how the harmonics on the power lines are becoming a real problem. i still do not understand how it works. maybe eventually i will find a white paper on designs for the boost converter needed on the front end to make the active pfc work.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by dnmun » Apr 23, 2014 11:11 pm

i discovered why the Modiary charger would not work. by accident almost.

it has a thermal fuse taped to the side of the transformer. the fuse connects the little oscillator next to the TL494 to the big oscillator circuit in the front that drives the current through the transformer in order to push current into the output.

i had not noticed it before but was looking at the pcb and transformer and noticed the legs of the fuse sticking out underneath the tape on the transformer so i cut the tape open, after checking for continuity on the legs of the fuse with my ohmeter, then i unsoldered the thermal fuse, removed it and soldered a jumper wire across the holes.

powered it up and it started charging. waiting for fred to clue me about what he wants for the charger leads so i can put it all back together and then use it to charge up my 48V battery i have left.

i had been stumped bad for a week so i put it aside and had hooked up my battery to make it function, and just noticed it had that fuse when my mind could still put it together, looked at where it was soldered into the circuit of the oscillator, bam, done.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » Apr 29, 2014 12:09 am

the order from evassemble is now 3 weeks ago. still no tracking number and the charger was 60pcs+ in stock!
the email response is very slow.. I would not recommend this shop. Maybe other buyers do have more luck.
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by izeman » Apr 29, 2014 12:43 am

this happenes all the time when ordering from china. forget about the tracking number. it's worthless for china post. they don't update this info anyway.
did you choose ems, ups or similar? otherwise 3 weeks wait is the minimum.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » May 01, 2014 5:00 am

Yes i know shipping from china can be very slow. I ordered a "foldylock" bicycle lock three month ago which is also made in china. still not shipped. :roll:
without a lock i have to carry my 45kg bike every time up and down 10+stairs into my flat.
I do not remember what shipping i had choose at evassemble. sent them an email on monday, but still no answer..

BMS battery was very fast delivery (including the time to set to charger to my required volts). As i remember it arrived in about 10-14 days after i placed the order.
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by alsmith » May 01, 2014 7:15 am

madin88 wrote:Yes i know shipping from china can be very slow. I ordered a "foldylock" bicycle lock three month ago which is also made in china. still not shipped. :roll:
without a lock i have to carry my 45kg bike every time up and down 10+stairs into my flat.
I do not remember what shipping i had choose at evassemble. sent them an email on monday, but still no answer..

BMS battery was very fast delivery (including the time to set to charger to my required volts). As i remember it arrived in about 10-14 days after i placed the order.
I don't think I would be relying on that one lock for my bike- and I haven't even seen it. Can you post a link?

Have you looked at the threads on e-s about security and locks? Good information and tips. (Is there one of them wicky things about bike security?)

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » May 01, 2014 7:27 am

Foldylock: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/17 ... -bike-lock

i think this is a good lock.

sorry for OT
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by alsmith » May 01, 2014 3:14 pm

madin88 wrote:Foldylock: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/17 ... -bike-lock

i think this is a good lock.

sorry for OT

yep, sorry o/t- but i seem to recall that style as getting mixed responses. I'd search the archives, people give their experiences- real people, real experience. quick google search gives mixed reviews, here's a few bad (usually more informative than good) reviews. Or start a new thread and ask- worthwhile for something you are going to trust your bike to. I still maintain 2 different style locks are better than one, more off-putting to the thief who would usually look for something easier.
Seriously if you intend to trust your bike to this one lock check the archives. And maybe ask in a new thread. Good luck!

oops, forgot the links- 1 2 3

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » Jun 08, 2014 7:03 am

Finally i got the KP-C 1200W charger delivered. I had to wait more than a month for a shipping notification with tracking number. The charger i got did look different than the one shown in the shop. It was not in a own box, instead all thrown in in the carton package held in place by some form parts.
Horrible workmanship:
The top lid is hold in place by a nut secured and messed up with white silicon glue (no screws). It looks ugly and the surface is rough like a sandpaper! It was very hard work for me to get the lid pulled out of the case and i cut my fingers because of the sharp cooling fins.
The inside also does look horrible finished. Ugly soldering, and the whole charger seems like it had been assembled out of 3 blown ones (dusty fan, dusty board with pots, etc). Instead of the main fuse there seems to be only a wire bridge filled up again with this white silicon glue. This must be a choke! Have to take a closer look to this part..

I definitely would not buy it again! With customs duty i had to pay almost 300€, and this for a heavy, ugly box with old style electronics..
the good thing: it works and charges my battery

today later i will post some pictures
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by madin88 » Jun 08, 2014 7:40 am

here some pics:

is there a fuse?

Image

Image

Image

everywhere messed up with this white glue instead of bolt mount:

Image

Image[

front:

Image

board:

Image
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by dnmun » Jun 08, 2014 7:58 am

the fuse is under the plastic cap where they have the emblem of a fuse. you could put a rocker switch underneath for on/off too.

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Re: BMS Battery Alloy Shell Charger Problems

Post by izeman » Jun 08, 2014 8:16 am

maddin you should not compare it to the one i gave to you. ;) normally the board is not screwed to the case. this was something i did to make it stronger and fail proof.

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