A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
wb9k   10 kW

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by wb9k » Jan 02 2015 11:08am

whatever wrote:
wbk9 wrote:
I see the problem now....you didn't give the number that contains the date code information
that doesn't make any sense, as mentioned all the a123 20ahr cells that I can find on the net from usa/korea etc have same format, same format as I've given from the cells I have. All numbers are included, you seemed confused.
Have you got any pictures showing kapton tape under the aluminium tabs?
My bad, you did give that portion of the number. However, the Korean format is different from what is used today. Looking at a USA cell in one of your links, you'll see a number printed between the tabs at the very top of the cell: SHD11E2201963. This is reproduced in the main body of text that is found down a bit and to the left. On your cell, this appears to correspond to the "vgj5045b0149" portion of the text. This does not contain any date code info that I can discern. I understand this looks like it's the same format, but it isn't. This is one more reason I think this was from an experimental build--oddball codes probably intended to prevent the escape of the cell into production material. I don't have any pics to share with Kapton on both electrodes, but I can assure you I've torn down dozens of cells by now--including several Korean cells--and they ALWAYS have it. You have a cell there that is at least a few years old, and unusual in many regards from anything I have worked with. That doesn't mean it won't work, but it does raise questions about the origin of the cell.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by whatever » Jan 03 2015 1:11am

Post a picture of this new code format, if it exists. Otherwise what your saying is purely speculation.

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by canderton62 » Jan 03 2015 1:24pm

Hi there I am doing some research on the posibility of building a battery pack for my electric paramotor I have the alien power systems 12090 motor 18000 watt motor controlled by a 450amp ESC do you think it is a good idea to even think of using the
A123 20ah batteries you input is greatly welcomed my last project was an electric powerd paramotor using the turnigy ca120-70 roughly 9000 watt 450amp ESC zippyflightmax 8000 mah 6s batteries x4
Two in parallel and two in series 44.4 volts
16000mah clime rate is very poor on this setup so I am building something with a bit more oomph behind it in my new setup I would like something around 55 volts max power pulling about 250 to 280 amp draw obviously this would not be for long periods take off and clime outs the link below is for one of the flights on the ca120-70 set up
Electric Paramotor: http://youtu.be/6rzrXMTFfDw

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by arkmundi » Jan 03 2015 2:22pm

canderton62 wrote:Electric Paramotor: http://youtu.be/6rzrXMTFfDw

Boy that looks like a lot of fun. So electric powered flight his here! Awesome. Of course I'll hate you now because I want one and well.....

A 16S A123 AMP20 will give you 54V and more than enough amps for your needs. There will be a weight penalty compared to RC Lipo.

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by canderton62 » Jan 03 2015 3:41pm

My next question bearing in mind I haven't read all of the posts I have seen 48volt 20ah battery packs with charger and bms
For about £300 would this be a candidate for a battery hack

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by wb9k » Jan 03 2015 8:54pm

whatever wrote:Post a picture of this new code format, if it exists. Otherwise what your saying is purely speculation.
Dude, it's in the thread YOU linked. About the 7th post down, there is a pic that shows exactly what I described above.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... &start=100

Sorry I can't interpret the Korean numbers for you. I have no idea what they mean.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by wb9k » Jan 03 2015 9:04pm

canderton62 wrote:Hi there I am doing some research on the posibility of building a battery pack for my electric paramotor I have the alien power systems 12090 motor 18000 watt motor controlled by a 450amp ESC do you think it is a good idea to even think of using the
A123 20ah batteries you input is greatly welcomed my last project was an electric powerd paramotor using the turnigy ca120-70 roughly 9000 watt 450amp ESC zippyflightmax 8000 mah 6s batteries x4
Two in parallel and two in series 44.4 volts
16000mah clime rate is very poor on this setup so I am building something with a bit more oomph behind it in my new setup I would like something around 55 volts max power pulling about 250 to 280 amp draw obviously this would not be for long periods take off and clime outs the link below is for one of the flights on the ca120-70 set up
Electric Paramotor: http://youtu.be/6rzrXMTFfDw
That's really cool. Almost enough to make me abandon my next motorcycle project.....almost. As Ark pointed out, 16S of A123's would give you all the current capability you need, but there would be a bit of a weight penalty. With proper pack design and care, they will live a very long time too.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by whatever » Jan 04 2015 7:03am

@wb9k
regards the serial numbers, you've posted a link giving a cell with a format that you say is the new format, it is in exact same format as the korean cell number as I mentioned before.
I've used the pic you linked to saying its the new format, and put a pic of one of my cells, the format is identical.
A123 SERIALS compare2.jpg
A123 SERIALS compare2.jpg (49.96 KiB) Viewed 2317 times

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by whatever » Jan 04 2015 7:24am

ok so lets go through the format in detail

bottom numbers first
usa cell: 300386-USA
Korean cell: 300386-001
format identical, from this you could probably deduce that cells made in korea are denoted by a 001.

first top number
usa cell: APP72161227
Korean cell: APP72161227
numbers are identical and format identical

second top number
usa cell: SHA 11 C 29 0 1682
Korean cell: VGJ 50 J 40 A 0006
I've put spaces to separate numbers from letters, in order to show more clearly the format is 100% identical.
3 letters, two numbers, one letter, two numbers, one letter followed by four numbers.

Now I've established clearly that what you've been saying is incorrect, its clear to see the formats are identical.
You've claimed you are an A123 employee and failure expert, but it seems you have not been very honest about
your knowledge on serial numbers. You've said you can read the date from the serial numbers, I've not asked how you
do that, just what the date is on my cells. There should be no conflict of interest if you do in fact work for a123.
You made statements such as the korean cells I have are experimental and very old. And numerous statements
such as
That's an unusual format---indecipherable to me. That model number is for an older version of the cell....It would appear this predates any production I'm familiar with. May have even been from an experimental build.
well that was rubbish
your next quote was
I see the problem now....you didn't give the number that contains the date code information
oh yes I did
next you said
The model number of the cell given is now obsolete..
really
then you said
My bad, you did give that portion of the number. However, the Korean format is different from what is used today.
Ok so my point is, your not being honest, that is a concern for me, someone who says they work at a123, and is a failure expert, you have a very poor knowledge about a123 cells. There are so many errors in your posts it would take me too much time to go through them all.

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by whatever » Jan 04 2015 7:29am

I've finished with this thread, I'll post new info on interesting things in future, but hope @wbk9 and 999zip999 might try and treat others with respect in future.
On a positive note, regarding the serial numbers, it can be concluded that the date of manufacture is included in the top right hand portion, maybe someone can creatively figure out what the date codes are.
its only this portion that is different
usa cell: SHA 11 C 29 0 1682
Korean cell: VGJ 50 J 40 A 0006
My guess is its the last four digits might give the year/month but who knows.

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by Teh Stork » Jan 04 2015 8:21am

whatever wrote:I've finished with this thread, I'll post new info on interesting things in future, but hope @wbk9 and 999zip999 might try and treat others with respect in future.
As a neutral third party that has followed this discussion: I find no error in the way wbk9 and others have treated you. You aimed high and presented conclusions with little to no facts behind them. When other members pointed out these shortcomings in your conclusions, you took offense. Have some humble pie, get off your high horse and continue the discussion :)
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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by wb9k » Jan 04 2015 10:37am

Teh Stork wrote:
whatever wrote:I've finished with this thread, I'll post new info on interesting things in future, but hope @wbk9 and 999zip999 might try and treat others with respect in future.
As a neutral third party that has followed this discussion: I find no error in the way wbk9 and others have treated you. You aimed high and presented conclusions with little to no facts behind them. When other members pointed out these shortcomings in your conclusions, you took offense. Have some humble pie, get off your high horse and continue the discussion :)
Thank you. I may run out of patience a little faster than others, but this is exactly how I see it too. It's great to be ambitious--overstepping one's grasp is a good trait to have if you wish to learn, but one needs to know when to listen. Like with the cell FA, the analysis of the serial number format is fundamentally misguided. While it's tempting to show Whatever what the real answer is--it would make his logical errors undeniably obvious--I can't do so without compromising proprietary information.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by arkmundi » Jan 04 2015 10:38am

Except you have to get off of the high horse (or bike, as the case may be) BEFORE you'll be able to eat some humble pie. Umm, um good! Then take a deep breath, stroll around and enjoy the scenery.
Last edited by arkmundi on Jan 04 2015 3:47pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 04 2015 1:56pm

Whatever you make it harder as you are cross talking from two different threads as one thread.

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 04 2015 5:14pm

Canderton62 yes that is a good price but to good as a pack should cost 750.00usd. or much more like 1,200usd. So they are most likely junk cells if on a chinesse website.
Nobody is giving away a good working A123 battery. Many many packs made out there will cells ripped out of recycled packs and some have taps resolder under the foil wrapper. No good. So don't gamble with your money. The days of the b grade cells coming out of China can be long ago ( 2yrs ) The last one who may have gotten some 4-5yrs old cells is Arkumuni and his build but at 35.00 @ cell no bms or charger just loose cells. Which you need to sort just to make a battery pack or 18 cells for a 16 cell pack. thing.
Whatever the cells from korea are old can be very old, I thinlk I read try shut down 4-6 yrs ago maybe wb9e could tell.
Fake full tabs A123 20ah cells 1.jpg
Plus other Chinesse tricks of A123 battery packs like Victpower solder tabs, you Can Not solder aliumium and copper as it will just peel off and drop on the ground. Lot's of people have paid for this chinesse junk and try to resale a known junk battery to get their money back. But did I say their is a lot of junk out there. Usa A123 20ah cells are 70.00 usd. each just the bare cells. So times 16 x 70 = 1,200 dollars. brand new plus shipping. OSN had some cells that were stuck in inpound for yrs. as grade B cells, maybe try still have them. My girlfriend at OSN got married with my consent and moved home, so no more phone calls as he is jellus.
Last edited by 999zip999 on Jan 04 2015 5:29pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by arkmundi » Jan 04 2015 5:28pm

999zip999 wrote:The last one who may have gotten some 4-5yrs old cells is Arkumundi and his build but at 35.00 @ cell no bms or charger just loose cells....
Don't know how old the cells are, maybe that old, maybe newer. They were stored well before OSNPower was able to retrieve them. A123 cells have a very long shelf-life, up to 10 years. So was not concerned about that as much as some meaningful warranty that they were genuine new, not used or recycled cells. They look like your pic - the good ones. See post at PROMOTING OSN A123 20ah packs. FYI, my two 48V 16S packs are performing as expected and are staying perfectly balanced.
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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by wb9k » Jan 04 2015 5:29pm

Korea was shut down roughly two years ago, maybe a little more. I think the oldest primatic cells from A123 are maybe 7 years old or so now.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 04 2015 5:34pm

yes have very good luck with my B grade cells and stay in very good balance just bluk charging now. I had the pack for 2 plus yrs. the cells must be 4-6yrs old work great. Plus they were 18.50 usd. but paid 25.00 ea. in a group buy 2 yrs. ago.

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by canderton62 » Jan 05 2015 4:34am

After reading what people say about a123 20ah it seems like its a hit or miss if you get a good one is there an alternatives or does anyone know of a reliable source?

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by riba2233 » Jan 05 2015 7:14am

There is an official source:

http://www.buya123batteries.com/
My electric moped: http://www.evalbum.com/4966

My electric car: http://www.evalbum.com/5364

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by canderton62 » Jan 05 2015 7:28am

Few thats £850 squids plus charger and bsm

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by riba2233 » Jan 05 2015 7:49am

Nobody said a123 was cheap. You should consider some more economical options.
My electric moped: http://www.evalbum.com/4966

My electric car: http://www.evalbum.com/5364

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by canderton62 » Jan 05 2015 8:01am

More economic options woud be welcom if anyone has any sugestions 50 ish volts and I need to pull out 300 ish amps for take off and clime outs

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by arkmundi » Jan 05 2015 11:52am

riba2233 wrote:There is an official source:

http://www.buya123batteries.com/
Yes, and these are from the factory direct, so new and warranted. But full retail at $70 per, and in cartons of 20 cells, which can be a bit inconvenient. OSNPower is selling cells and a nifty little kit to connect cells together. I paid $36 per and in the exact quantity I needed. I was a test case, buying early after their announcement that the cells had once again become available - see PROMOTING OSN A123 20ah packs. I would have thought that with my decent experience with the company and cells - they were in fact new and performed as expected - that others here would take up the offer.

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Re: A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread

Post by canderton62 » Jan 05 2015 12:32pm

Thanks Ark old chap just gone to the link and asked for a prise quot on 5 see what comes back I also looked at your bike set up on you tube magnificent old been

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