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Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 14 2020 3:23pm
by captain387
Just an FYI, the last post on this topic (when it was active) was from 2015

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 14 2020 3:40pm
by zeccato
eMark wrote:
Feb 14 2020 1:49pm
,.....,...............
Lesson is not to buy a cheap BMS or a cheap non-adjustable charger. So, why do you need a HV alarm?
All I care about is the monitor,
and maybe disable the balance,
I need it to charge 2 battery 16s lifepo4 without the bms, up to 90-97%..
as discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=104641&p=1529737#p1528905

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 1:32pm
by john61ct
The term BMS can include (or not) a myriad of functions.

"Monitor-only" may include alarms or relay/contactor control, but probably not, certainly implies the device has nothing to do with balancing.

Balancers may be of many different types, but no protective functions are implied, nor anything to do with charging control.

Balance chargers are a completely separate product category, but a bulk-only charger + (balancer or BMS) can indeed get to the same result.

A BMS or balancer does not need to be hooked up "live" during use IOW discharging, it could just be attached for charging purposes, disconnected once full, for the battery to then be used "bareback".

There is nothing wrong with resistance-bleeding type balancing, used in conjunction with charging or not. Just as with shuttle-type "active" balancing or using shunts,

the key factors are a decent balance current rate, and an adjustable start-voltage if not always-on.

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 1:50pm
by john61ct

zeccato wrote:All I care about is the monitor,
and maybe disable the balance
lots of members swear these are great:

http://www.chargery.com/BMS16Pro.asp

Other Chargery products, I dunno, but at least the BMS can terminate your PSU when the first cell hits your desired HVC, not just beep at you.

Take my guidance above into account, and read the manual before ordering to check it meets your needs.


Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 3:12pm
by zeccato
john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 1:50pm
zeccato wrote:All I care about is the monitor,
and maybe disable the balance
lots of members swear these are great:

http://www.chargery.com/BMS16Pro.asp

Other Chargery products, I dunno, but at least the BMS can terminate your PSU when the first cell hits your desired HVC, not just beep at you.

Take my guidance above into account, and read the manual before ordering to check it meets your needs.
Okay, but need to be careful not to confuse between Bms16 and Bm16, are two pieces that can be combined,
the Bm16 is the monitor, and Bms16 is the Bms.
I'm only interested in the monitor.
the manual is there.

https://shop.lipopower.de/Battery-Monit ... 3S-bis-16S

http://www.litrade.de/shop/BMS,Balancer ... am=monitor

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 3:13pm
by jonyjoe303
I use the chargery bms8 (same as the the chargery bms 16/24) and I evaluate it as excellent in what it does. You can use it just as a monitor since without external contactor/relays it won't do anything a bms would do (stop charge/discharge). And it does have a loud alarm and flashing lights to warn you if the setpoints you program are exceeded. You can probably rig even louder alarms/ lights using external relays.

The balancing function (1.2 amps per cell) can be disable easily on the lcd screen.

You can buy the chargery bms16 on ebay for less then 110 dollars. Not a bad deal for its capabilities. I been using my bms8 almost a year connected 24/7, and its been reliable, never let me down. Using only as a monitor would be overkill for the chargery but it can do it.

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 3:22pm
by john61ct
A relay capable of interrupting the AC input to that Gophert PSU would be so cheap,

it would be silly not to use the BMS to terminate the charge cycle directly rather than just sit there beeping.

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 4:08pm
by zeccato
jonyjoe303 wrote:
Feb 15 2020 3:13pm
I
I can't find any bms16 charms can you give a link?

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 4:42pm
by zeccato
john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 3:22pm
A relay capable of interrupting the AC input to that Gophert PSU would be so cheap,

it would be silly not to use the BMS to terminate the charge cycle directly rather than just sit there beeping.
i think my gophert doesn't need hvc,
when I charge the 16s battery at 54.7v or more,
in the final it goes from c.c. to c.v.
and it automatically lowers the amps, to zero I think.

I would like simple monitor hv alarm and see, not bt bms, for simplicity etc.
I heard positive and negative comments about the e-bike bms, I finally decided so.

And if it's true that about 50% of bms (cheap) did damage, who's the (*it would be silly )?

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 4:56pm
by jonyjoe303
"I can't find any bms16 charms can you give a link?"
type this into ebay search and it will come up cost 108, it doesnt come with contactors/relays which isn't needed for monitor use. On mine I use a 4 dollar 30a automotive relay.
BMS16 V2.0 300A 2S - 16S BMS lifepo4 Li-ion LiPo Battery Protection Chargery

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 5:36pm
by zeccato
jonyjoe303 wrote:
Feb 15 2020 4:56pm
"I can't find any bms16 charms can you give a link?"
type this into ebay search and it will come up cost 108, it doesnt come with contactors/relays which isn't needed for monitor use. On mine I use a 4 dollar 30a automotive relay.
BMS16 V2.0 300A 2S - 16S BMS lifepo4 Li-ion LiPo Battery Protection Chargery
I think we're talking about the same thing. The name charms confuses me.
you're referring to Bm16 Chargery monitor, right?
https://shop.lipopower.de/Battery-Monit ... 3S-bis-16S

http://www.litrade.de/shop/BMS,Balancer ... am=monitor

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 5:44pm
by john61ct

zeccato wrote:
john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 3:22pm
A relay capable of interrupting the AC input to that Gophert PSU would be so cheap,

it would be silly not to use the BMS to terminate the charge cycle directly rather than just sit there beeping.
i think my gophert doesn't need hvc,
when I charge the 16s battery at 54.7v or more,
in the final it goes from c.c. to c.v.
and it automatically lowers the amps, to zero I think.
You think? You're wrong, that's what we keep telling you over and over.

The PSU has no termination logic at all, it is doing no regulation toward the end of the cycle except capping **voltage** only - that voltage is OK BTW.

That is the resistance of the overcharged battery causing amps accepted to fall.

Charge should be stopping at 0.05C or IOW when trailing amps has dropped to a 0.5A rate per 10Ah of bank capacity

or maybe 0.02C but IMO that's too stressful, earlier is better for longevity.

But really a simple HVC is much easier to implement, could increase voltage a bit say 3.55V if doing CC only.

Just allowing overcharge like that is not only bad for the batteries, but risky wrt fires as they get worn out.


Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 6:36pm
by zeccato
john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 5:44pm
zeccato wrote:
john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 3:22pm
A relay capable of interrupting the AC input to that Gophert PSU would be so cheap,

it would be silly not to use the BMS to terminate the charge cycle directly rather than just sit there beeping.
i think my gophert doesn't need hvc,
when I charge the 16s battery at 54.7v or more,
in the final it goes from c.c. to c.v.
and it automatically lowers the amps, to zero I think.
You think? You're wrong, that's what we keep telling you over and over.

The PSU has no termination logic at all, it is doing no regulation toward the end of the cycle except capping **voltage** only - that voltage is OK BTW.

That is the resistance of the overcharged battery causing amps accepted to fall.

Charge should be stopping at 0.05C or IOW when trailing amps has dropped to a 0.5A rate per 10Ah of bank capacity

or maybe 0.02C but IMO that's too stressful, earlier is better for longevity.

But really a simple HVC is much easier to implement, could increase voltage a bit say 3.55V if doing CC only.

Just allowing overcharge like that is not only bad for the batteries, but risky wrt fires as they get worn out.
I've never had the overcharge, I maxed out at 3.45v cell (lifepo4),
or maybe I don't understand some of your technical info.
if you can make it easier.
what risk or harm I create if I charge the battery 16s to 3,43v each cell with Gophert c.c c.v.
I set the charge to 5A, and when it drops to 1A, I turn it off.

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 15 2020 11:46pm
by john61ct
Ask specific questions to clarify what you don't understand, after googling a bit.

Holding Absorb / CV too long is by definition overcharging even at 3.43Vpc, before you were talking until trailing current drops to 0A!

As stated, consequences include reduced pack longevity, worst case fire, can easily burn down your house.

The proper termination point is not just voltage, the other part is current.

> I set the charge to 5A, and when it drops to 1A, I turn it off.

That is the right concept, aka the endAmps setpoint

but the actual number will vary by how many Ah the pack is

which is why it is spec's as a C-rate, not in amps.

How many Ah is your pack?
zeccato wrote:
john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 5:44pm
zeccato wrote:
john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 3:22pm
A relay capable of interrupting the AC input to that Gophert PSU would be so cheap,

it would be silly not to use the BMS to terminate the charge cycle directly rather than just sit there beeping.
i think my gophert doesn't need hvc,
when I charge the 16s battery at 54.7v or more,
in the final it goes from c.c. to c.v.
and it automatically lowers the amps, to zero I think.
You think? You're wrong, that's what we keep telling you over and over.

The PSU has no termination logic at all, it is doing no regulation toward the end of the cycle except capping **voltage** only - that voltage is OK BTW.

That is the resistance of the overcharged battery causing amps accepted to fall.

Charge should be stopping at 0.05C or IOW when trailing amps has dropped to a 0.5A rate per 10Ah of bank capacity

or maybe 0.02C but IMO that's too stressful, earlier is better for longevity.

But really a simple HVC is much easier to implement, could increase voltage a bit say 3.55V if doing CC only.

Just allowing overcharge like that is not only bad for the batteries, but risky wrt fires as they get worn out.
I've never had the overcharge, I maxed out at 3.45v cell (lifepo4),
or maybe I don't understand some of your technical info.
if you can make it easier.
what risk or harm I create if I charge the battery 16s to 3,43v each cell with Gophert c.c c.v.

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 16 2020 3:12am
by zeccato
john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 11:46pm
Ask specific questions to clarify what you don't understand, after googling a bit.

Holding Absorb / CV too long is by definition overcharging even at 3.43Vpc, before you were talking until trailing current drops to 0A!

As stated, consequences include reduced pack longevity, worst case fire, can easily burn down your house.

The proper termination point is not just voltage, the other part is current.

> I set the charge to 5A, and when it drops to 1A, I turn it off.

That is the right concept, aka the endAmps setpoint

but the actual number will vary by how many Ah the pack is

which is why it is spec's as a C-rate, not in amps.

How many Ah is your pack?
zeccato wrote:
john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 5:44pm
zeccato wrote:
i think my gophert doesn't need hvc,
when I charge the 16s battery at 54.7v or more,
in the final it goes from c.c. to c.v.
and it automatically lowers the amps, to zero I think.
You think? You're wrong, that's what we keep telling you over and over.

The PSU has no termination logic at all, it is doing no regulation toward the end of the cycle except capping **voltage** only - that voltage is OK BTW.

That is the resistance of the overcharged battery causing amps accepted to fall.

Charge should be stopping at 0.05C or IOW when trailing amps has dropped to a 0.5A rate per 10Ah of bank capacity

or maybe 0.02C but IMO that's too stressful, earlier is better for longevity.

But really a simple HVC is much easier to implement, could increase voltage a bit say 3.55V if doing CC only.

Just allowing overcharge like that is not only bad for the batteries, but risky wrt fires as they get worn out.
I've never had the overcharge, I maxed out at 3.45v cell (lifepo4),
or maybe I don't understand some of your technical info.
if you can make it easier.
what risk or harm I create if I charge the battery 16s to 3,43v each cell with Gophert c.c c.v.
Thanks for explaining,
should I stop charging the battery directly (without bms or balance charger) with this Gophert power supply?
c.v is not good without Hvc?
if I load only in c.c it's okay without Hvc?
To power the balance charge is fine?

Old battery 48v 30A 2-3 c continue,
I never got past 7A to load it,
c rate i now.
today I charged with the balance charge
the small battery 48v 7.5A a123 30c

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 16 2020 4:12am
by john61ct

zeccato wrote:should I stop charging the battery directly (without bms or balance charger) with this Gophert power supply?

c.v is not good without Hvc?
Do what you like, IMO relying on human regulation is too risky.

> if I load only in c.c it's okay without Hvc?

The point of the HVC is automating the charge termination

> To power the balance charge is fine?

I don't understand

> Old battery 48v 30A 2-3 c continue

At 30A, 1.5A endAmps would be the longest I'd hold Absorb / CV


I don't know why you keep saying old, for LFP well treated 8 years is barely broken in.


Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 16 2020 6:51am
by zeccato
john61ct wrote:
Feb 16 2020 4:12am
zeccato wrote:?

> To power the balance charge is fine?

I don't understand
To connect the Gophert to this:
THUNDER POWER RC 1430C DC 
charger, discharger and balancer
1000 Watt
0-36.0V input voltage 

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 16 2020 7:02am
by john61ct
Sure if the one's output matches what the other needs for input, volts is volts amps is amps

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 17 2020 9:43am
by eMark
john61ct wrote:
Feb 16 2020 7:02am
Sure if the one's output matches what the other needs for input, volts is volts amps is amps
zeccato wrote:
Feb 16 2020 6:51am
To connect the Gophert to this:
THUNDER POWER RC 1430C DC
charger, discharger and balancer
1000 Watt
0-36.0V input voltage
You've previously indicated one reason for overcharge HVA protection (e.g. Gophert relay) when "quick" charging with a bulk charger. Why not just adjust your bulk charger to 4.1V or even 4.0V when "quick" charging ... that way it would take even less time when "quick" charging :thumb:

You do bring up what would be a useful function on all quality pro balance chargers like TP. A HVA feature for adjusting in 0.05 increments (e.g. 4.0V, 4.05V, 4.10V) ... like when you might feel it necessary to do a "quick" balance charge at 1.5C ...
Useful Function :bigthumb:

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 17 2020 10:29am
by john61ct
What is HVA protection?

All good hobby chargers already allow adjustment of termination voltage.

Not sure why you are using scare quotes for the word quick. Many hobby chargers actually feature a fast mode meaning skip the balancing, it is indeed much faster to just bulk charge.

Especially when balancing is simply not needed, can be many months at a time if not years.


Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Feb 17 2020 11:18am
by eMark
john61ct wrote:
Feb 17 2020 10:29am
What is HVA protection?
You've got to be kidding my ES friend.
john61ct wrote:
Feb 17 2020 10:29am
Not sure why you are using scare quotes for the word quick.
Apparently you weren't doing due diligence while reading previous posts, but not comprehending my EX friend ... opps i meant ES friend :thumb: ... Realize it may be difficult, but i know you've got it in you to keep up and not misinterpret :thumb:
john61ct wrote:
Feb 17 2020 10:29am
Especially when balancing is simply not needed, can be many months at a time if not years.
You do exagggerate my knowledgeable ES friend. Please try to stay on board with closer attention to his explicit posts instead of straying.
zeccato wrote:
Feb 16 2020 6:51am
To connect the Gophert to this:
THUNDER POWER RC 1430C DC
charger, discharger and balancer
1000 Watt
0-36.0V input voltage
It would be helpful if john would not only read, but grasp the content of your explicit posts so wouldn't be necessary to Xpln 2 Hym

PS: Apologize as my finger slipped off the "S" and accidentally hit the "X" just below the "S"

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Mar 03 2020 4:34am
by zeccato
I'm surprised that after several questions, no one informed me about the existence of isdt bc-8s,
I have to thank jonyjoe303 that have informed about it in the forum: This is another monitor isdt bc-8s that also has a overvoltage alarm. This one will alarm on li-ion and also lifepo4, over voltage setting programmable.

CHARGERY BM16, (Negative for me): choose model: lipo or liifepo4, if in the future I take a li-ion battery, the lifepo4 will not go.
So maybe I'll buy 2 or 3 isdt bc-8s,
oo I can charge the 48v 16s lifepo4 battery at 80-95% without bms with more security (with the power supply).
isdt bc-8s.jpg
isdt bc-8s.jpg (10.45 KiB) Viewed 711 times

Re: Chargery 16S Lipo/LiFePO4 Monitor

Posted: Mar 03 2020 8:43am
by john61ct