New Konion cell 20C continuous 6.7C charge

Someone forwarded me the specs on a new Konion cell that's out. 1.6ah rated capacity 1.5ah nominal, max continuous discharge 30A, max continuous charge 10A, 45.1g 18650 cell. That's 20C continuous, 6.7C charge, and 131wh/kg, all in a safe cell that doesn't need fancy electronics and balancing as long as you don't deep discharge every cycle.

Too bad these great new cells are not the cells in the used toolpacks some are selling to forum members. You know, the toolpacks that were headed to the recycler, and they got for free. I wouldn't have an issue with it if the pricing per wh wasn't the same as retail RC Lipo before even considering the time and expense of building packs with them, or the added costs of shipping a lot of dead weight in the form of packaging and dead cells.

If you're really lucky, you'll buy a couple thousand dollars of these free used tool packs, and the seller will treat you like such a loyal customer that he withholds vital information about a scumbag thief heading up a group buy, and you get ripped off for another $576.

John

Those cells sound good, are those real (I mean available somewhere for cheap) ?

John in CR said:

If you're really lucky, you'll buy a couple thousand dollars of these free used tool packs, and the seller will treat you like such a loyal customer that he withholds vital information about a scumbag thief heading up a group buy, and you get ripped off for another $576.

John

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Sounds like you'll be buying new cells from now on, rather than used tool pack cells.

Sounds like a nice improvement! Can you post the data sheet? Any samples available?

liveforphysics said:

Sounds like a nice improvement! Can you post the data sheet? Any samples available?

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I need to get approval first to post. I figured calling them Konions and posting some basics was OK. Arranging samples now, and waiting for bulk pricing. I need packs for rental ebikes.

On another topic, send me a list of everything you want me to measure when I open up that 6 phase motor. I'll have a controller set to ramp up performance in 7-10 days, and I need to get it ventilated and look at bringing out something bigger than the metric version of almost 10ga 6 phase wires. You're going to want to do this on your next motor. We talk about quiet hubbies, but on the bike it's actually silent even at startup, and silky smooth.

deVries said:

John in CR said:

If you're really lucky, you'll buy a couple thousand dollars of these free used tool packs, and the seller will treat you like such a loyal customer that he withholds vital information about a scumbag thief heading up a group buy, and you get ripped off for another $576.

John

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Sounds like you'll be buying new cells from now on, rather than used tool pack cells.

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I wouldn't say that. It depends what's in them, the price, and who's selling them.

I'm a little confused by the OP... is there a new konion cell or not? Googling reveals nothing. Or are you just being sarcastic about a group buy gone awry?? I've mentioned before I'm not the brightest bulb in the shed.

If there is a another konion 18650 coming out and you're sourcing new ones at those specs and relatively affordable... well... sign me up...

Yeah. What about prices ?? What would be a good price (Realistic) for cells of this capacity ?

Enquiring minds want to know.

My problem with these small format Ah cells is all the pack build resistance created when building a pack from these vs using bigger Ah format cells.

Bigger Ah Format = less external connections = less resistance/heat losses = less labor = fewer failure points too.

pwbset said:

I'm a little confused by the OP... is there a new konion cell or not? Googling reveals nothing. Or are you just being sarcastic about a group buy gone awry?? I've mentioned before I'm not the brightest bulb in the shed.

If there is a another konion 18650 coming out and you're sourcing new ones at those specs and relatively affordable... well... sign me up...

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Yes, there's a new Konion cell available, but don't know what they're in...laptops probably, maybe some ebike packs too. Yes, they're new. Price still an unknown, but the sample price wasn't outrageous. I used to hope as cells became obsolete we'd be able to get them cheap. eg Imagine $1ea of the original Konions new. Instead they improve the cells, so the price hasn't come down like I hoped.

No, nothing sarcastic. I've been stewing over it since April, and I get more po'd the more I think about it.

John in CR said:

I used to hope as cells became obsolete we'd be able to get them cheap. eg Imagine $1ea of the original Konions new.

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You and me both... that would be sweet!

John in CR said:

I've been stewing over it since April, and I get more po'd the more I think about it.

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Keep us posted... it's the holy grail as far as I'm concerned.

deVries said:

My problem with these small format Ah cells is all the pack build resistance created when building a pack from these vs using bigger Ah format cells.

Bigger Ah Format = less external connections = less resistance/heat losses = less labor = fewer failure points too.

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I didn't say anything about loose single cells. You weren't around when I built my own super easy DIY packs using blocks of konions. Most are over 3 years old and still in service. Easy, reliable, and convenient are always my priorities. There's also a real advantage in smaller blocks, because you can build the pack to the shape you want, even tubular in shape. Other than temporarily with one too small pack, I've never had any batteries get warm, just sag, and these higher C rate Konions will inherently be less saggy.

At the other end of the spectrum we're also looking at 30ah blocks for pack building.

The bottom line is that we're finally starting to see some light at the end of the battery tunnel. Hopefully the sources of cheap A123 prismatic cells continue, but you just can't beat the convenience of Konions. Voltage is a great fuel gauge, voltage sag tells you pack health, so all you do is bulk charge and ride, no balancing, no checking for balance, no extra electronics or wiring balance taps, etc. For 3 years all I did was pull in the carport, plug in, and push the button. You can't really appreciate it till you try it.

I do the same with my A123's and RC Lipo, but I do have to check them occasionally for balance, but the lipo simply can't be sold to someone else, and the A123's would require another multifaceted point of failure, a BMS to be put in the hands of a 3rd party.

John

John in CR said:

There's also a real advantage in smaller blocks, because you can build the pack to the shape you want, even tubular in shape.

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Amen!

pwbset said:

John in CR said:

There's also a real advantage in smaller blocks, because you can build the pack to the shape you want, even tubular in shape.

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Amen!

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Now that's the way to fill a triangle with a worry-free safe pack. Good job.

pwbset said:

Keep us posted... it's the holy grail as far as I'm concerned.

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There's another holy grail battery opportunity that's very real too, but it requires more significant capital. I've got a few more ducks to line up before lining up the capital required to make lots of things happen. Late 2012 and 2013 are going to be incredible as far as light EVs go.

A123's would require another multifaceted point of failure, a BMS to be put in the hands of a 3rd party.

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Not if using single cell chargers. Also, LVC can be controlled down to the cell level with alarm or actual cut-off.

It takes 12-13 cells of those konions for *one* A123 20Ah cell.

A 20Ah 20s A123 is 20 cells vs 240 cells of Konions.

Easy peasy choice, imo.

It's also a lot easier to make a compact battery for 20 cells vs 240 cylindrical cells that require more spacing & connection design too. What is the smallest space you can fit 240 konions in? How much does it weigh with connection design such a glue & wiring?

I'll definitely concede that only needing a small Ah battery of 10Ah or less, then these Konions are a better choice since A123 are 20Ah.

deVries said:

I'll definitely concede that only needing a small Ah battery of 10Ah or less, then these Konions are a better choice since A123 are 20Ah.

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I wouldn't argue that. If I needed/wanted 20ah or more I'd be all over the A123s, but putting 180 little konions into an 18s10p triangle pack with my little 2 farad tab welder is about the easiest thing in the world to do. I would never consider soldering together a pack again now that I've had the tab welder bug in me for a few years now.

I have a 18s 10p konion pack It always finds a weak cell, but great power and fit's in my triangle easy. I too spent a lot of money on used tool batteries. Too much as some packs in two different shipments with two different people both came to me with many low volt packs 5,8,10v they where replaced and some good ones where rusted out at 14v.. Yes it's hit and miss USED power packs gamble. JohnCR can we now have a sangesf thread. I would love to start the fire.

pwbset said:

deVries said:

I'll definitely concede that only needing a small Ah battery of 10Ah or less, then these Konions are a better choice since A123 are 20Ah.

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I wouldn't argue that. If I needed/wanted 20ah or more I'd be all over the A123s, but putting 180 little konions into an 18s10p triangle pack with my little 2 farad tab welder is about the easiest thing in the world to do. I would never consider soldering together a pack again now that I've had the tab welder bug in me for a few years now.

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What's it cost to get a good quality setup for welding these with excellent results? Also, what connectors do you have to use?

Still, I wonder how much IR "heat" is built-up connecting 180 cells vs 20 cells. There has to be a lot more IR "heat loss" with all these connections, imo. Just a concern, since experts are soooo worried about adding IR using high quality fuses beyond one or two.

Finally, since there is so much quality issues trying to recycle & match cells for a good used pack, that buying new is the only way to go. Cost of these per cell is so high, what is it $/cell, that A123 keeps a lot of money in your wallet vs these cells. Right?

deVries said:

What's it cost to get a good quality setup for welding these with excellent results? Also, what connectors do you have to use?

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I just followed the "$100 Tab Welder" thread here and it worked great. I did add a better Scosche cap for better penetration recently, but it was only like $50 on eBay.

deVries said:

Finally, since there is so much quality issues trying to recycle & match cells for a good used pack, that buying new is the only way to go.

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I feel like there are just as many quality issues sourcing "new" 20ah A123 modules.

deVries said:

Cost of these per cell is so high, what is it $/cell

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Hardly... I got 1.2kwh worth of konions for only a few hundred dollars shipped. LiPo is the only thing comparable, but I'm not willing to risk the chemistry living in a small apartment and knowing that I've routinely made charging/discharging mistakes before. 4.35v or 0v in a konion are non-events (ask me how I know 8) )... LiPo.. well.. I'm not willing to risk it.

Back when Makita had the tab welding machine issue causing failures, the resulting 2p4s blocks of cells were actually better than new cells. This was because since they had already gone through multiple cycles and were still in balance, that block of 8 cells was a perfectly matched proven to be good block of cells. To make durable packs all you had to do was capacity match those block to form your strings, which only took some charging time and a handful of lightbulbs for a single discharge test.

Al it took me was to solder 4 tab on tab connections to make a 74V3ah string, and capacity matched strings only need to be paralleled at the end just like Nissan does. In almost 4 years I had only one block prematurely age faster (if you call 3 years of service fast) than it's siblings in the string, and I noticed the additional sag long before it caused any other failure. I replaced that one block, and the string is still in service.

I've got a shitload of those strings on different bikes of my own and other, that all still work, so I know how easy it can be to DIY durable packs with used batteries. Those days are over though because the faulty packs are of a completely different quality.

If we get the right price on these cells they'll come in just as simple to use tab welded blocks of cells, though these will have more flexibility in how you orient the cells to form strings. For my own packs I will run them through 8-10 cycles to try to weed out any bad cells up front. Price is all that matters now.

John

I feel like there are just as many quality issues sourcing "new" 20ah A123 modules.

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No one in their right mind is going to use modules to build an ebike battery. Go read the thread I started about the 7s3p modules to understand why.

Hardly... I got 1.2kwh worth of konions for only a few hundred dollars shipped.

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Those days are over though because the faulty packs are of a completely different quality.

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I think John is suggesting those days are gone in his OP & post just above. I was and am still asking for the price of these new cells; not the old used kind.

Also, what is the price for the connectors to join the cells? What do you use? What is the weight of these connectors? (Weigh 10-20 & give us average weight.) Also, what is the weight of this new cell?

Again, I'm referring to the new Konions the OP is referring to.

pwbset said:

I did add a better Scosche cap for better penetration recently, but it was only like $50 on eBay.

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Could you give us a part link or specs or ebay listing?

Thanks.