Elite Power batteries
- Thread starter tome
- Start date
dogman dan
1 PW
Comparable to a ping cell in discharge rate, or others like thundersky or fox . 2c lifepo4. At one point they were quite interesting because of a very low price. Now they cost more, A123's can be had, HK lipo is all the rage, so not a whole lot of people who talk here doing anything with them. Originaly they had no bms, but now I believe you get a 4s bms in each box.
The nice 12v 20 ah modules in a hardcase could make them desireable to some people. For example, if you have a bike equipped with the special racks for 12 ah slas to carry like panniers, you might like the hardcase box that fits your rack perfect.
The nice 12v 20 ah modules in a hardcase could make them desireable to some people. For example, if you have a bike equipped with the special racks for 12 ah slas to carry like panniers, you might like the hardcase box that fits your rack perfect.
icecube57
10 MW
2C solid 3C wishful...Heavy In comparison to lipo. A 24s 20AH pack weights 42lbs...... vs 23lb for the same Lipo. Easy to work with.. Cell balancers from elite make them fool proof. I think i hit on several key point that are pos and cons
Hugues
1 kW
i don't know about their smaller Ah packs but i just bought 32S of 100AH of their GBS cells for a motorbike project and based on experience from other guys on Elmoto forum I can expect pulling 500 amps from them no problem, and more for a few seconds without sagging into the danger zone.
But for a bicycle, probable not a good choice.
But for a bicycle, probable not a good choice.
All I know about the company itself is that they don't answer their phone very often, and the one time I ever got thru to them they took a message and were to call me back within the hour, but never did. They also didn't respond to emails when i tried to find out how much I could buy TS cells for without shipping costs, since I am in Phoenix like they are, and could come pick them up. (not that I can actually afford the cells, but I have 10 60Ah TS cells and wanted to get more for a higher voltage big-Ah pack...if for no other reason than to sell the lot locally as a complete tested working pack).
icecube57
10 MW
Larger Ah they are fine. Smaller AH its worse. and under 2-3c load expec about 2.8-2.9v a cell. Their nickname is ThunderSag because of the voltage sag on these suckers.
dogman dan
1 PW
So the cells in the 20 ah boxes are thundersky? I wasn't sure what brand of cell there was in there. They say GBS, whatever that is.
Back when each 12v 20 ah box was pretty cheap they were quite interesting. They were less than $100 each then, so a bare bones 36v 20 ah pack was under $300. Now, the pack with charger and balancers is $558. A bare bones pack is now $124 per brick, so $373 for no bms or charger.
Still not that bad a price if you don't want a bms, and have your charger. And for some bikes, the plastic box is worth it's weight. I always say, gotta build protection for it if you buy a ping or use lipo. If the battery will be carried in a more vulerable place like panniers, it could still be well worth it's weight. It's also very handy for any bike that has been running sla's. The boxes are nearly the same size as 12ah sla's. So your battery rack may work perfect for these packs.
Once you get into motorcycles or larger EV's the size pack gets big enough that 2c is plenty.
Back when each 12v 20 ah box was pretty cheap they were quite interesting. They were less than $100 each then, so a bare bones 36v 20 ah pack was under $300. Now, the pack with charger and balancers is $558. A bare bones pack is now $124 per brick, so $373 for no bms or charger.
Still not that bad a price if you don't want a bms, and have your charger. And for some bikes, the plastic box is worth it's weight. I always say, gotta build protection for it if you buy a ping or use lipo. If the battery will be carried in a more vulerable place like panniers, it could still be well worth it's weight. It's also very handy for any bike that has been running sla's. The boxes are nearly the same size as 12ah sla's. So your battery rack may work perfect for these packs.
Once you get into motorcycles or larger EV's the size pack gets big enough that 2c is plenty.
dogman dan
1 PW
The thunderskies I have seen have always been prismatic cell lifepo4. The flat cells are contained in a plastic case in a prismatic cell.
TS comes in many sizes, 10, 20, 40, .....100 ah etc. About 2c discharge rate, but once you have 60 ah, hey that's 120 amps. Oughta do a go kart ok.
At least with this outfit, you deal with shipping from the USA. Supposing they answer their phone that is.
TS comes in many sizes, 10, 20, 40, .....100 ah etc. About 2c discharge rate, but once you have 60 ah, hey that's 120 amps. Oughta do a go kart ok.
At least with this outfit, you deal with shipping from the USA. Supposing they answer their phone that is.
All of the TS cells I have seen or read of are LiFePO4, as are all of the "plastic ridged box" type cells ("large format prismatic") that I have ever seen.
All of the various brands of those type cells are only 1-2C at most without hefty voltage sag, so while they can do 2-3C bursts, you probably wouldn't want to do that very often or for very long at a time. Even 2C is probably straining most of them.
Back when I got the 60Ah cells it was because I wanted to use them on a bike that would be drawing maybe 15-20A for it's acceleration, and maybe 30-40A burst at startup, and maybe 80-100A instantaneous startup from stall current, just for that one moment. As it turned out I switched to a different drive type and never did that setup, with it's replacement still in the planning stages and early buildup, so I've never been able to test the theory of it working as expected--I only have 10 cells, so thats only 32V nominal, which would've been fine for my chaindrive-shiftable setup but not for a hubmotor.
All of the various brands of those type cells are only 1-2C at most without hefty voltage sag, so while they can do 2-3C bursts, you probably wouldn't want to do that very often or for very long at a time. Even 2C is probably straining most of them.
Back when I got the 60Ah cells it was because I wanted to use them on a bike that would be drawing maybe 15-20A for it's acceleration, and maybe 30-40A burst at startup, and maybe 80-100A instantaneous startup from stall current, just for that one moment. As it turned out I switched to a different drive type and never did that setup, with it's replacement still in the planning stages and early buildup, so I've never been able to test the theory of it working as expected--I only have 10 cells, so thats only 32V nominal, which would've been fine for my chaindrive-shiftable setup but not for a hubmotor.
I have a 48v20ah Elite battery, they are GBS cells. They are not the same manufacturer as Thundersky, at least as far as I know. I have a 9c 2806 motor. I have had the battery a little over a year. The biggest problem is the batteries sag quite a bit. There is no BMS, just cell balancers which bleed the battery after reaching 3.7 v. I have a cycle analyst to watch for low voltage otherwise there is no way to keep a check on low voltage. When the batteries were new I was getting slightly over 1000 watts output, now about 950 watts according to the cycle analyst. It is a fairly heavy battery for Life4, although manageable.
Rin said:
Thanks everyone for the info. What exactly is a GBS cell? Also, I am surprised that you say there is no bms and wonder if they have improved things or are just lying... I mean marketing :wink: since this is what they claim on their web site:
"Each package includes sixteen GBS Li-ion batteries (40Ah, 60Ah or 100Ah cells), a matching charger and a BMS system. The BMS system measures voltage and temperature of each individual cell, performs cell balancing, reports alarm conditions and provides interlock signals in case of over-voltage, under-voltage and over-temperature conditions. The BMS system interfaces with the charger to eliminate the possibility of over-charging. An easy to read state of charge meter is included and can also indicate an alarm situation; this provides overall system visibility. BMS sampling boards (one per cell) daisy chain together to provide a simple two wire interface to the BMS electronics. These boards are concealed underneath the battery covers for a clean, simple, straight forward installation."
Tom
10 kW
I worked with a student project where we bought 12 of their 60Ahr cells (they were the green colored ones) and their BMS system. Had a few problems with the BMS system and killed one cell. They were always responsive though and I guess I just had luck getting them on the phone. Had to get several replacements for the little boards that went on each cell, but they always seemed to ship them pretty quickly. Company is in the US so that was nice for us. The cells do tend to sag a lot but with 60Ahr, it wasn't much of a problem. We ran them over 2c for bursts, but usually under 2c. They did not like the cold either. They were decent and cheap but that was about 2 years ago now, I think. The BMS could be configured to cut out the controller if you got an alarm. The parameters like the LVL, HVL, etc. could be changed. The BMS has a fairly large console. We had it in a small electric car. The system worked OK but we did have a BMS board fail which caused a cell to be damaged.
frodus
10 kW
I distribute for them, so if anyone has questions, let me know and I can answer. I know about these systems and have close contact with Elite Power Solutions and Evolve Electrics.
A few clarifications for those looking at GBS.....
The small 12V standalone modules can be bought with balancer only. There's no LVC, HVC, just shunting.
The Complete battery setups include XX number of cells, and modules that go on each one that wire to a main BMS controller that has LVC, HVC and some Canbus communication (optional) to the charger, as well as output to an LCD.
The BMS is now on version 3 and is more refined than the one they sold a couple years back.
The GBS cells are quite a bit stronger than the thundersky, and are more closely comparable to CALB cells, which don't sag as much as others do. They're LiFePO4 cells and made by GBS. They're no Lipo, but they're built more for larger vehicles where 2-5C continuous/10C peak is just fine.
It's a fairly well built system. I had them make a 36-cell system for people interested (Matches the HPEVS 130VDC AC systems perfectly).
A few clarifications for those looking at GBS.....
The small 12V standalone modules can be bought with balancer only. There's no LVC, HVC, just shunting.
The Complete battery setups include XX number of cells, and modules that go on each one that wire to a main BMS controller that has LVC, HVC and some Canbus communication (optional) to the charger, as well as output to an LCD.
The BMS is now on version 3 and is more refined than the one they sold a couple years back.
The GBS cells are quite a bit stronger than the thundersky, and are more closely comparable to CALB cells, which don't sag as much as others do. They're LiFePO4 cells and made by GBS. They're no Lipo, but they're built more for larger vehicles where 2-5C continuous/10C peak is just fine.
It's a fairly well built system. I had them make a 36-cell system for people interested (Matches the HPEVS 130VDC AC systems perfectly).
dumbass
100 kW
Elite used to sell Thunder Sky cells but switched to GBS cells about a year or more ago. About 3 years ago I purchased 4 of the 4 pack 20ah 2c packs in the plastic boxes. I paid $160 per 4 pack + shipping. I remover the cells from the boxes and build a new plastic box of my own to house a 24v pack with a CEllLog and alarm. I use this for my BMS. I also have 4 of the GBS 20ah 2C 4 packs. I bought them for my wifes bike and never actually built her packs. I paid $124 per 4 pack +shipping last year. $124 per 4 pack is as cheap as I have seen them. But they screw you on shipping. $50 for one to 4 packs. SO if your ordering several packs it's not bad but if your only getting 1 pack bend over. One good thing is they are in Cal. if you have a problem. I have always had good phone and email service from them.
I personally like the cells and have not had a problem with sagging. However, I generally draw a max of 31a at 48v. I have tested a single cell at 150a+. Sorry I don't remember how long I held it there or how low the voltage drop was.
Elite has never offered a BMS at and still doesn't for small cells. The only thing they offer for the smaller cells is a crappy cell bleeder that does not work at all. The only way you can charge these cells is with a BMS or single cell chargers. I do not use a BMS but use a combination of bulk charging and single cell chargers. The bulk charger is 6a and the single cell charges are 2a ea. I cut off the bulk charger when the first cell hits around 3.64v and allow the single cells to top the pack off to 3.65v.
The TS cells do not stay in balance at all and require balance charging after every discharge. I can not confirm but I think the GBS cells are the same way.
The best thing I like about these cells (both TS & GBS) is the shape and fisical size because it works well for my needs. I also like how strong the construction is. I've been known to bounce a cell off the floor now and then and never hurt it. And ya gotta love the screw on connectors.
Bob
I personally like the cells and have not had a problem with sagging. However, I generally draw a max of 31a at 48v. I have tested a single cell at 150a+. Sorry I don't remember how long I held it there or how low the voltage drop was.
Elite has never offered a BMS at and still doesn't for small cells. The only thing they offer for the smaller cells is a crappy cell bleeder that does not work at all. The only way you can charge these cells is with a BMS or single cell chargers. I do not use a BMS but use a combination of bulk charging and single cell chargers. The bulk charger is 6a and the single cell charges are 2a ea. I cut off the bulk charger when the first cell hits around 3.64v and allow the single cells to top the pack off to 3.65v.
The TS cells do not stay in balance at all and require balance charging after every discharge. I can not confirm but I think the GBS cells are the same way.
The best thing I like about these cells (both TS & GBS) is the shape and fisical size because it works well for my needs. I also like how strong the construction is. I've been known to bounce a cell off the floor now and then and never hurt it. And ya gotta love the screw on connectors.
Bob
frodus
10 kW
"THEY" don't screw you, UPS/Fedex does because they ship Hazmat Class 9 because they're a company within the US. Not really their fault IMHO. Chinese companies cheat and don't really follow legal shipping procedures, thus, cheaper shipping.
dumbass
100 kW
frodus said:
Believe what you like. But the last time I placed an order with them I questioned why the shipping was so high. I was told it was to cover the cost for traiing a person in hazardous material handling and shipping. And BTW they a way higher then anyone else shipping lifepo4 cell within the US. I was also told the shipping cost for 1 4 pack of cells was the same shipping cost for 4 4 packs of cells. There's no way UPS/Fedex does that. Especially when my packs arrived in individual boxes with individual shipping labels. Like I said they screw you on shipping.
Bob
EDIT: If you go to their site and check they shipping info you will find this statement........
UPS shipments of lithium ion batteries require special packaging and shipping documents. The shipping cost is the actual ground cost plus a flat $27.50 per box Dangerous Goods Fee.....
Call it what you want they are charging $27.50 additional over and above the normal cost to put the pack in a box. BTW, you want to know what the special packaging is? It's the HasMat sticker on the outside of the box. There wasn't even news paper in the box to protect the pack.
I'll say it again "their screwing you on the shipping".
Some surcharges are per shipment, some are per piece.
you still pay X amount to ship 1 box, more for 2, etc by cubic or actual weight + 50$ for DG ( dangerous goods ) surcharge on a shipment.. be it 1 or 4 pieces in that shipment.
edit :
https://eshiponline.purolator.com/ShipOnline/shipment/Estimate.aspx
try it out.. make it from E1E2N5 to M4M1A1 .. 1 piece , 1 lb , with DG ( fully regulated ) ..
then edit and make it 3 pieces 3 lbs, notice the surcharge for DG stays the same, but the shipping cost goes up ( by weight )
I tried to do this on the ups site, but can't find the DG option.. i work for purolator so i'm used to the pcl estimates window ( tech support )
you still pay X amount to ship 1 box, more for 2, etc by cubic or actual weight + 50$ for DG ( dangerous goods ) surcharge on a shipment.. be it 1 or 4 pieces in that shipment.
edit :
https://eshiponline.purolator.com/ShipOnline/shipment/Estimate.aspx
try it out.. make it from E1E2N5 to M4M1A1 .. 1 piece , 1 lb , with DG ( fully regulated ) ..
then edit and make it 3 pieces 3 lbs, notice the surcharge for DG stays the same, but the shipping cost goes up ( by weight )
I tried to do this on the ups site, but can't find the DG option.. i work for purolator so i'm used to the pcl estimates window ( tech support )
And the reason the shipment should be declared DG is not to add care in handling to the package.. it's to protect the workers in the event the thing gets crushed. dropped.. etc.. if you work at a sort facility and a bog with DG stickers starts to smoke you know to clear the area.... drop a box of flour an sugar.. bake a cake.
dumbass
100 kW
Ypedal said:
I agree with what your saying 100%. But that's not the point of my comment. As you point out the reason for declaring something as a DG is for "notification" only. It gets handled basicly the same way as a box of shoes. But as you point out if the box of shoes start to smoke not to much to worry about. But if the DG box starts to smoke they show concern. So what it all comes down to is the HasMat sticker. Which is my point. All this added charge is for applying a sticker to the box. Of course we have to remember the cost of training that person applying the sticker.
I too worked in a company that had to deal with the DG shipping issues. And all we were required was to have 1 person on site that was properly trained and certified. But we had 20 people actually doing the shipping. Yep, as it turns out any body could attach those sticker. The real issue is to have someone trained to deal with a problem in the unlikely event it should arrise.
I do not argue the importance of proper training I argue that it's a part of doing business. Just like expecting me to have a suite case what I fly on a plane. Excepting my suite case should not be an added fee. I'm only guessing but I bet the person most at risk (the truck drivers) are not properly trained to handle a DG problem in their trucks or at time of delivery. So again why such a high added cost.....Some body is getting a smile out of it......
Bob
As far as i know... that is false.. all courrier drivers must be DG cetified to carry parcels marked as such.
Lessss
1 MW
FTFY: it's to protect the workers in the event the thing gets deliberately crushed by their reckless actions as they throw things around like footballs.
Lessss said:
Again, myth, any sort worker caught doing DELIBERATE damage to parcels.. fired on the spot. I'm not saying it does not happen, but i'm certain it's not " allowed " .
Most damage to parcels come from improper packaging, and other improperly packaged parcels from other shippers..... a conveyor belt does not care and most sort facilities are now automated with quite a level of care.. ( searching youtube vid )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYzQ7JSBIGU
[youtube]iYzQ7JSBIGU[/youtube]
[youtube]iYzQ7JSBIGU[/youtube]
