18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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circuit   100 kW

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by circuit » Aug 05 2013 11:35pm

Yes, it is all about price in the end. LG cell is a lot cheaper. One supplier was able to actually offer me $3.0 per cell @100. Other suppliers offered higher prices, however still ~35% lower than NCR18650B.
It would be interesting to do a test with PD version, but I just don't see myself purchasing it due to price tag.
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by briangv99 » Aug 06 2013 6:11am

circuit wrote:Yes, it is all about price in the end. LG cell is a lot cheaper. One supplier was able to actually offer me $3.0 per cell @100. Other suppliers offered higher prices, however still ~35% lower than NCR18650B.
It would be interesting to do a test with PD version, but I just don't see myself purchasing it due to price tag.
$3.00 per cell is an incredible price, was that from a aliexpress supplier?

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by circuit » Aug 06 2013 6:14am

No, that was from a generic supplier in China, who does not usually deal batteries. I would say it is higher risk than others, so will have to try a few samples before placing larger order.
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by district9prawn » Aug 06 2013 8:47am

Read your results with great interest. They were even interesting enough to make me start posting! :P

Like the others, I would love to see the results on the ncr18650pd. Definitely a big jump in price at $6-7 a cell compared to what you got the LG cells for.
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by Nuts&Volts » Aug 06 2013 9:22am

I have been quoted ~$4.35/cell shipped to the US for QTY1500 of the NCR18650PD cells from Keeppower. This was about 1 month ago. As long as you get enough the price will come down. That might be true for the LG D1 cells.

By the way, what type of equipment did you use for the testing? I'm curious

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by migueralliart » Aug 06 2013 9:37am

April had the panasonic PD cell a while ago for ~7$ a piece not shipped. But someone bought 5,000 pieces from them and didn't leave anything left for me :(

Anyway thanks for the data and taking time to post your findings.

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by circuit » Aug 07 2013 1:32am

By the way, I just got a spam from Angel <angel@supervaluehousehold.cn>. They are offering LG 2600mAh cells (NOT 3Ah one I have tested) for $3.0 @ 100 pcs. Panasonic 3400mAh (the ones I've tested) for $6.0 @ 100 pcs. And of course some TrustFire crap.
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by Lussy » Sep 02 2013 3:52am

Hi,
A comparison between the Panasonic pd and lg d1 can be found at the link below

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries20 ... arator.php

The Panasonic cell is the enerpower + 18650 2900mAh 3C (Blue)

I have bought 72 of the Panasonic pd cells from fasttech for a 5s14p pack for about $7 each. Once I had finished the pack I Tested one and found the internal resistance was high (50mohm) and had poor capacity at 5a of only~1400ma. Hopefully it was a dud cell. Will see how the remainder of the pack performs.....

Looking at buying some Lg d1 for $2.71 from powertrading.com. with shipping will be ~$4

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 14&t=52710

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by circuit » Sep 02 2013 3:59am

Lussy wrote:Looking at buying some Lg d1 for $2.71 from powertrading.com. with shipping will be ~$4
Price looks good! Thanks!
By the way, the website is www.powertrading.pl
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by cwah » Sep 02 2013 8:51am

Nuts&Volts wrote:I have been quoted ~$4.35/cell shipped to the US for QTY1500 of the NCR18650PD cells from Keeppower. This was about 1 month ago. As long as you get enough the price will come down. That might be true for the LG D1 cells.

By the way, what type of equipment did you use for the testing? I'm curious
That's a good price. Can you provide a contact email/skype? I'd like to get them shipped to france
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by Samson » Sep 02 2013 6:27pm

I posted this on another thread but it applies hear as well:
I have considered these LG cells also and bought a couple last year to test. The capacity was decent and the voltage higher than most cells. However I just found a data sheet from LG and noticed that the discharge rating below a temperature of 5 deg C is only .5 C or 1450 mA. From 5 to 45 deg C it is 2C or 5800mA which is decent. This would be a problem in cool weather.
It may be necessary to limit the current when below 5 deg C until they warm up.


Data Sheet:
http://caxapa.ru/thumbs/406271/LRB-PS-ICR18650D1.pdf

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by ridethelightning » Sep 02 2013 7:06pm

Thanks for the testing!
im currently weighing up which battery to go for.
very interested to see how they compare.
would be very keen to know how the LGcell looks compared to samsung20r and panasonicPD.

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by LSBW » Sep 02 2013 7:21pm

I've built pack from LG cells

Image

This was my first time with this pack:

Start voltage 84 volt
End voltage 74.5 volt
Distance 68 km
Used 17.62 Ah
1312 Watt-hours
19.1 Wh/km
48 Amp max
Max speed 63 km/h
Average speed 28.8
Pack weight is 10 kg and it fits into 400x150x100 mm box
Bike weight is 42 kg or 90 lbs.
Lyen 18 FET controller (limited to 45 Amp battery) and Cromotor in 21″ wheel.

Few days ago:

Start voltage 85 volt
End voltage 73 volt
Distance 70 km
Used 20 Ah
1475 Watt-hours
20.5 Wh/km
48 Amp max
Max speed 63.8 km/h
Average speed 31.5 km/h

http://extronebike.ca/2013/08/18/lg-battery-pack/

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by John in CR » Sep 02 2013 11:25pm

It's nice to see the higher voltage at 4.35V . I'm still waiting for the big jump to 5V or 6V per cell. :mrgreen:

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by circuit » Sep 04 2013 3:42am

Okay, I did some more testing with Panasonic NCR18650B cell, a new one. All previous tests were done with 1C charging current. Since Panasonic celll failed miserably at that current, I did test with 0.5C charging. So here are the results (see the gray line).

Image

There was some data loss, because my PC restarted due to unknown reason.

It is not fair to compare 0.5C to 1.0C, however Panasonic still failed badly.
I am still arranging NCR18650PD cells to test, however Panasonic does not look good at all.

BTW, I did monitor temperature this time. The maximum was at the end of discharge - 41°C. During charge, it climbed to a maximum of 31°C (22 ambient).

However LG performs a little worse in cold, until around -15°C is reached, where Panasonic's Ri shoots through the roof. Ri was measured with iCharger 208B at ~50% SOC.

Image
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by cwah » Sep 07 2013 1:42am

So the NCR18650PD might not worth it? I'm really keen to know the test results
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by circuit » Sep 07 2013 2:19am

I can't say anything about the PD cell, I am still trying to obtain a couple samples... The only sources I have found are in china and no company is willing to ship them except TNT/DHL, which is unresonably expensive for samples.

Maybe someone here on ES has some of Panasonic NCR19650PD cells and could send me a couple to test? I am in EU.
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by savaoaknyc » Sep 09 2013 5:59am

circuit wrote:I can't say anything about the PD cell, I am still trying to obtain a couple samples... The only sources I have found are in china and no company is willing to ship them except TNT/DHL, which is unresonably expensive for samples.

Maybe someone here on ES has some of Panasonic NCR19650PD cells and could send me a couple to test? I am in EU.

you can buy from any german shop just look at google.de and search for ncr18650pd.There are like 4 or 5 sellers.Price around 6,5 euro

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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by cwah » Sep 09 2013 5:05pm

According to panasonic, the NCR18650 cell achieve 80% capacity at 500 cycle and 70% at 2000 cycles:
Image
http://www.embedded-world.eu/fileadmin/ ... asonic.pdf
How come test data are so different? maybe too high discharge/charge current?
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by cwah » Sep 09 2013 5:56pm

Hey circuit, what about you try to charge to 4.1V on the NCR18650B cell? From the charge that's how they get the 2000 cycle life
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by Hillhater » Sep 09 2013 6:06pm

That chart doesnt specify which cell is being tested..the PD or the B or some other NCR18650.
But a very Interesting link to that PDF. !
Did you notice this comparison chart..
Image

And this 21v , 58Ahr module !...
Image
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by cwah » Sep 11 2013 8:30am

Guys, I've found a discovery on the NCR18650 cells:
Image
https://batteryworkshop.msfc.nasa.gov/p ... _JRead.pdf

Results are consistent with your finding on NCR18650B cells at C/2 charge rate. Best life cycle would be at C/10 charge/discharge, but for ebike a C/5 charge and C rate would give good lifecycle.

It means the NCR18650PD should have good life cycle for ebike as they have much higher C rate
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by circuit » Sep 11 2013 8:36am

This is a nice find, cwah! It is interesting that more and more often we can find any useful data only in NASA's documents...

Is this graph for NCR18650B?
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by cwah » Sep 11 2013 8:53am

No mentions about it:
Image

Probably a generic cell?
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Re: 18650 cell test: Panasonic vs. LG

Post by Sigmacom » Sep 12 2013 12:07am

Judging by the capacity (2.9Ah) I think these NASA tests were on the original 2009/10 version - the straight NCR18650 - Panasonic spec here : http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-dat ... 0CE240.pdf

Interestingly that Panasonic spec sheet has a lifecycle graph based on charging at 0.3C, and it infers from its charge characteristic graph that Panasonic recommends max 0.3C charge rate. However the NCR18650B spec sheet specifies 0.5C charge rate : http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-dat ... 00CE54.pdf though it does not have a life cycle graph.

I'm currently building a 13S14P 47Ah pack using NCR18650B. My bike runs a HT3525 in a 20" wheel so rarely draws more than 2kW. The discharge tests I have run so far (with the battery on my bike) show the NCR18650B discharging (voltage curve) at the same rates as the 0.2C graph on the Panasonic spec sheet. Having seen your tests above I will continue to charge them slowly using my BC168 + UNA9 except when I'm touring, when I will have to bulk charge them at 0.5C.

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