[rant] If A123 cells are so great....

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deVries   1 MW

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 14 2013 12:48pm

etriker wrote:
arkmundi wrote:
wb9k wrote:You might be interested in some of the Hymotion modules that Hank Sybesma has and will be making available very soon, along with test results for each module they sell.
More information, please! and thanks again! new tread post request on Hymotion.
I want one for my canoe motor too. :)
Here is the A123 Hymotion thread...

Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

A lot more information will be posted this September and October as time permits.


:twisted:

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 14 2013 12:54pm

Thanks buddy ! :)

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 14 2013 1:11pm

I took my submarine down under to the land of OZ. Gave Megacycle some mushroom tea and stole the last of the worlds Mega wrap and made back home to Mega wrap my 12s's. I don't think Megacycle is even awake yet or he's still dreaming of more tea. Strong stuff. As he will never remenber or have a clue. Stole the Mega wrap for my stolen A123 20ah cells.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 14 2013 1:15pm

999zip999 wrote:I took my submarine down under to the land of OZ. Gave Megacycle some mushroom tea and stole the last of the worlds Mega wrap and made back home to Mega wrap my 12s's. I don't think Megacycle is even awake yet or he's still dreaming of more tea. Strong stuff. As he will never remenber or have a clue. Stole the Mega wrap for my stolen A123 20ah cells.
You posted that picture just to be silly ?

You really are wasting bandwidth ?

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by arkmundi » Sep 14 2013 1:45pm

etriker wrote:It is the A123 rant thread ? Hello ? bandwidth ?
About the cells, about A123, about builds gone bad. I just feel we should all try to moderate our ranting on each other and respect repeated moderator requests that flaming be left out. Look, I've done it myself, so I'm a guilty party too, but there's a limit, when a thread turns toxic. There's a place for that, in "Other Toxic Discussions".

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 14 2013 1:57pm

arkmundi wrote:
etriker wrote:It is the A123 rant thread ? Hello ? bandwidth ?
About the cells, about A123, about builds gone bad. I just feel we should all try to moderate our ranting on each other and respect repeated moderator requests that flaming be left out. Look, I've done it myself, so I'm a guilty party too, but there's a limit, when a thread turns toxic. There's a place for that, in "Other Toxic Discussions".
I got called troll and did not call anyone any names.

I have never called a fellow es member a troll.

Why don't you call out the person calling people names ? You +++ed him ?

You agree with calling people mean names ?

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by wb9k » Sep 14 2013 1:58pm

arkmundi wrote:
etriker wrote:It is the A123 rant thread ? Hello ? bandwidth ?
About the cells, about A123, about builds gone bad. I just feel we should all try to moderate our ranting on each other and respect repeated moderator requests that flaming be left out. Look, I've done it myself, so I'm a guilty party too, but there's a limit, when a thread turns toxic. There's a place for that, in "Other Toxic Discussions".
Hear here!
dh
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2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 14 2013 1:58pm

wb9k wrote:
arkmundi wrote:
etriker wrote:It is the A123 rant thread ? Hello ? bandwidth ?
About the cells, about A123, about builds gone bad. I just feel we should all try to moderate our ranting on each other and respect repeated moderator requests that flaming be left out. Look, I've done it myself, so I'm a guilty party too, but there's a limit, when a thread turns toxic. There's a place for that, in "Other Toxic Discussions".
Hear here!
You just lost a sale buddy and an A123 fan ! :)

And they are not selling that fast.

I bleed testing A123 cells out.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... le#p688949

How many A123 powered ebike testing miles have you done ?

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 14 2013 2:18pm

I am done. First local Florida person to pm me gets a free A123 m1 pack and a bunch of cells. Must pick up.

Tampa

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 14 2013 2:35pm

The wheels have come off the cart.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 14 2013 2:40pm

999zip999 wrote:The wheels have come off the cart.
No pms yet. I am guessing I can't give those things away.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 14 2013 4:13pm

Gone. And no more A123s or A123 posts for me. Time to move on.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by whilechukwuzout » Sep 14 2013 9:08pm

Wow, this thread kinda exploded while I wasnt paying attention.

soooo can we buy A123s yet?

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by oatnet » Sep 16 2013 11:49am

devries wrote:I did do a search today and only could find that you did document build(s) before 2012 with A123 15Ah cells. Show us your build threads with 20Ah cells before 2012.
HaHaHaHa - you think the 16ah cells are something different... :lol:  Thanks for proving my point again. Surely even you can see the irony in demanding a specific flavor of my 50+ detailed build threads, when you have yet to make any build threads, or contributions whatsoever. Note that you interpreting/regurgitating the experiences that other people documented does not count as a contribution, nor does starting threads that other people fill with content.

devries wrote:http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 00#p786623
oatnet wrote:...simply reading what others have done is no substitute for experience..
Not necessarily so, since I get information from people like Doctorbass, you, Agniusm, bigmoose, W9BK (and many other experts), I start and study major threads about these subjects...  I have more experience reading/posting about cells and batteries than many people posting or reading, and I've been here reading/posting for 1,000's of hours over 5 years.
 
devries wrote:I've never had to document and post any ebike or battery builds on ES, but that does NOT mean I have not done those things more than once.
So NOW you claim that you are doing more than reading and regurgitating, and that you have built all sorts of stuff, but you still can't supply a build thread or documentation or even any current pictures of any of it...  That begs the question: are you a leech who is feeding off the posts of others on Endless-Sphere without making contributions of your own, or are you a poser who doesn't have any experience with the topics you are giving advice on?

In the first phase of any new project, I read everything I can until I feel that I have mastered the topic; that is where you are now.  Then in the second phase I build it and discover what I researched left off the most important details.  Then in the thrid phase I push the build until I find what breaks, and rebuild it better, and break/rebuild until it fits the duty cycle.  You will continue to be clueless until you get out of phase 1, and BUILD SOMETHING instead of just flapping your gums.
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 16 2013 3:07pm

Sorry for A123 20ah confusion I only take 17ah out of a pack of 24s 84v @ 30amp on the cummuter bike. Have taken 18ah. This is because of no bms and a C.A. cutoff of 72v. With just balance charging to 3.59v. Hands on and still testing. Yes 352 cycles and over 4,000 miles and things are working just great. With Mega wrap.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by wb9k » Sep 16 2013 4:25pm

Devil's always in the details, isn't it? I don't believe A123 has ever made a 17Ah cell--not on purpose anyway.

Zippy, your practice of never going into the very bottom portion of the curve explains a lot about why your low compression method has worked out for you. The bulk of swelling (assuming no overcharging occurs) happens at the very bottom of the curve where cell impedance (and corresponding heat generation) are greatest--even at modest C rates.
dh
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 16 2013 5:46pm

oatnet wrote:
devries wrote:I did do a search today and only could find that you did document build(s) before 2012 with A123 15Ah cells. Show us your build threads with 20Ah cells before 2012.
HaHaHaHa - you think the 16ah cells are something different... :lol:  Thanks for proving my point again.
Well, JD/Oatnet by your very own words in previous posts I seem to have proven you did not use any A123 20Ah cells prior to 2012, which is contrary to what you were stating as fact before. I'll just re-post that info again noting that in your post above you gave NOTHING to prove otherwise, so you're just full of BS about it.

You're simply a boring rant artist at this point... too shrill and petty for me to even respond to the rest of your BS. (None of it is even true anyway. You're just lying repeatedly over and over. It still does not make it true. Duhhh... lie + lie + lie + lie = 4 lies. You don't know 'the truth', troll.)
oatnet wrote:
devries wrote:No one has had these 20Ah cells for much more than about a year including you! Since when did you get these 20Ah A123 cells in your hands to touch?
Thanks for proving my point about your spreading disinformation. The 20ah a123 pouches were introduced on endless sphere in 2009, and here is that 2009 sale thread where I bought mine:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 31&t=14832
I did do a search today and only could find that you did document build(s) before 2012 with A123 15Ah cells. Show us your build threads with 20Ah cells before 2012.

You wrote:
by oatnet » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:16 am
cellman wrote:I'm pretty much sold out of the pouch cells now with the remaining cells spoken for.
Wow, I guess I bought that 28s of cells just in time! I'm still messing with my 16s/48v pack, I'm not ready to start the 28s/100v pack, but I thought I'd buy 'em before you ran out - now I am glad I did!

-JD
You also posted this in April 2012 about your Norco build:
oatnet wrote:The front pack is 24s of 16ah a123 prisimatics (I thought I had used 20ah pouches earlier, I was confused :oops: )
You posted this about your Specialized Endro in January 2011:
oatnet wrote:48v of 16ah prisimatic a123's will go in an ammo can on the forks.
Last edited by deVries on Sep 16 2013 7:20pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 16 2013 5:50pm

wb9k wrote:Devil's always in the details, isn't it? I don't believe A123 has ever made a 17Ah cell--not on purpose anyway.
Did A123 ever sell and make cells from the Korean plant that were 15Ah/16Ah prismatic pouch cells???

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by wb9k » Sep 16 2013 5:54pm

Not that I'm aware of. There is a 14Ah cell that was first built in Korea. They are now built in limited quantities in Livonia, but I don't think those have been offered to anyone except as engineering samples.
dh
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2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 16 2013 6:34pm

wb9k wrote:Not that I'm aware of. There is a 14Ah cell that was first built in Korea. They are now built in limited quantities in Livonia, but I don't think those have been offered to anyone except as engineering samples.
In December 2009 the Seller wrote:Price will be 2.5USD per Ah for bare cells :) Maybe some small additional fee for pack assembly and materials to be determined. Packs will start shipping once I've confirmed the specs, so hopefully sometime next week. So 50USD per 20Ah and 37.50USD per 15Ah. Shipping at cost and as cheap (but good) as can be found.
Somebody sold 15Ah cells that JD/Oatnet and other people bought, see above quote, and these cells were claimed to be from the A123 Korean plant. It was the "unspoken" understanding that this was the source with a wink/wink and a nod/nod. :lol:

So, it seems maybe these were really 14Ah cells IF even that is true??? :P

Oh, and the Korean supply dried-up by June/July 2010 as noted below...
The Seller wrote:Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:55 am
qxov wrote:Just received 16S 15Ah pack. Perfect quality.
Thanks Andrew :) [...]

I'm pretty much sold out of the pouch cells now with the remaining cells spoken for. If I can get some more I'll let you all know.
I guess he sourced a lot of 20Ah cells in 2012, when A123 was going bankrupt. :twisted:


.
Last edited by deVries on Sep 16 2013 7:14pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by wb9k » Sep 16 2013 6:40pm

Limited experimental runs of other sizes are possible, but I have no awareness of anything in that size. It can't be ruled out, not be me anyway.

Could have also been B-grade (or worse) 20Ah cells. Bear in mind there is normal variability in there too. The officially stated nominal capacity of the "20 Ah" cell is 19.6 Ah, but the very best ones will weigh in at 21 Ah.
dh
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2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 16 2013 6:49pm

wb9k wrote:Limited experimental runs of other sizes are possible, but I have no awareness of anything in that size. It can't be ruled out, not be me anyway.
Experimental runs would explain it IF these really did come from the A123 Korean plant. There is NO PROOF that even happened, though apparently there are markings on these cells that were sold.

To prove any of this there would need to be some capacity tests run on the so called 14Ah/15Ah/16Ah cells. Only then could one say what cells they actually have besides *also* proving the dimensions of the cells by showing photos with a measuring tape displaying the actual measurements of the cell. Or, show the markings on the cells too. That might provide some answers too. :wink:

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by wb9k » Sep 16 2013 7:00pm

After proper interpretation of any markings on the cells, dimensions and weight would probably be the most illuminating. More layers in the electrode stack would generally mean more capacity, assuming electrode and coating thicknesses are the same. Several of the top engineers from that Korea plant now work in Livonia. They're some sharp guys (and gals); experimental builds from Korea are definitely possible. They happen here on occasion too, though I'd hazard to guess that fewer of them escape into the wild today than might have a few years back.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 16 2013 8:40pm

Devries go find a thread to blow up that has the batteries you are using please, and then you can go ask them to do this test for you and report back to you. And have somebody do other test for you at your request. Just like last year.
You are able to report on the test and report back on the test you do to E.S.. Thanks
Last edited by 999zip999 on Sep 17 2013 1:35pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 16 2013 9:52pm

wb9k wrote:After proper interpretation of any markings on the cells, dimensions and weight would probably be the most illuminating...

Several of the top engineers from that Korea plant now work in Livonia. They're some sharp guys (and gals); experimental builds from Korea are definitely possible. They happen here on occasion too, though I'd hazard to guess that fewer of them escape into the wild today than might have a few years back.
Maybe you could ask them if these dimensions and cell weight give meaning??? :lol:

So, were these a match for those 14Ah cells or ???

Capacity: 15Ah

Size: 6.8mm x 150mm x 211mm

Weight: 400g

Poor Oatnet/JD, these definitely are NOT your A123 2012 20Ah cells. Yup, you got the 15Ah cells Pre-2012 just like you posted about back then too, and I quoted you already saying that in fact too. :P

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