[rant] If A123 cells are so great....

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by 999zip999 » Aug 09 2013 7:42pm

whilechukwuzout » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:09 pm

"why the hell do my posts keep getting deleted?"
Hell, hell and more hell. I thought this post was going to hell ?
I would go to hell and find out.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by Ypedal » Aug 10 2013 8:06am

whilechukwuzout wrote:why the hell do my posts keep getting deleted?
because they are not appropriate, quit bashing on members that we HIGHLY need and should support for giving us good information about batteries from a point of view we rarely get access to.....

Keep it up and it will not just be a post that gets deleted. :wink:
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by arkmundi » Aug 10 2013 9:03am

Ypedal wrote:because they are not appropriate, quit bashing on members that we HIGHLY need and should support for giving us good information about batteries from a point of view we rarely get access to.....

Keep it up and it will not just be a post that gets deleted. :wink:
Thank you!

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by wb9k » Aug 10 2013 9:28am

arkmundi wrote:Thank you!
What he said. Good moderation is priceless, especially in an arena so attractive to politically inspired rock-throwers.
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by Harold in CR » Aug 10 2013 9:43am

Gotta agree with the Ypedal man.

wb9k has given ALL of us, usefull info, as does Luke.

My thanks to both of them. Others are experimenters and give us ALL good info, good or bad results.

It's what makes this place go around and around, E-S FTW.
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by neptronix » Aug 10 2013 10:33am

arkmundi wrote:
wb9k wrote:Cylindrical mass-production has been in China for several years now. The pouch cell is presently built only in Livonia, MI to my knowledge. The Korean plant was shut down over a year ago.
Explains why cellman is having difficulty sourcing cells for his packs, as he was getting them from Korea. I believe he may be switching to more reliable suppliers, not that A123 won't be improving soon, but he's got a business to run.
cell_man has some of the last actually legit pouch cells. Get 'em while they last.
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by 999zip999 » Aug 11 2013 12:09am

What the hell nobody like my hell of a joke ?

whilechukwuzout » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:09 pm

"why the hell do my posts keep getting deleted?"
Hell, hell and more hell. I thought this post was going to hell ?
I would go to hell and find out.

Ha ha ha !!!
What no love on the E.S. Channel ?

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by arkmundi » Aug 11 2013 12:21am

999zip999 wrote:What no love on the E.S. Channel ?
All love all the time, zipmaaan! One love.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by wojtek » Sep 12 2013 12:36pm

neptronix wrote: cell_man has some of the last actually legit pouch cells. Get 'em while they last.
anyone has any feedback on cell_man packs? i think that would be best source indeed..
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 12 2013 1:49pm

wojtek wrote:
neptronix wrote: cell_man has some of the last actually legit pouch cells. Get 'em while they last.
anyone has any feedback on cell_man packs? i think that would be best source indeed..
Before buying from anyone I would suggest getting the "pressure questions" answered from now on...
John in CR wrote:I need to pull 300A peaks for up to 30sec. Dare I try it with 1p of my AMP20's or should I use 10-15p of my old M1's so I can spread it over plenty of connections?
If you don't have your A123 20Ah cells under the proper pressure range evenly distributed according to specs, then it's better to go with cylindrical cells which contain/maintain the pressure correctly already.

Start here and read following posts afterwords...

A123 20Ah Pressure Specs

Check This Too & Read the Following Post for Sure to See the Correction! :twisted:

.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by oatnet » Sep 12 2013 4:06pm

deVries wrote:
wojtek wrote:
neptronix wrote: cell_man has some of the last actually legit pouch cells. Get 'em while they last.
anyone has any feedback on cell_man packs? i think that would be best source indeed..
Before buying from anyone I would suggest getting the "pressure questions" answered from now on...
John in CR wrote:I need to pull 300A peaks for up to 30sec. Dare I try it with 1p of my AMP20's or should I use 10-15p of my old M1's so I can spread it over plenty of connections?
If you don't have your A123 20Ah cells under the proper pressure range evenly distributed according to specs, then it's better to go with cylindrical cells which contain/maintain the pressure correctly already.

Start here and read following posts afterwords...

A123 20Ah Pressure Specs

Check This Too & Read the Following Post for Sure to See the Correction! :twisted:

.
You are still making recommendations about cells you have never seen or touched? :roll:
And after all this time you still have not built an ebike or even a pack for an ebike? :roll:
Give it up, poser. :lol:

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 12 2013 10:29pm

wojtek wrote:
neptronix wrote: cell_man has some of the last actually legit pouch cells. Get 'em while they last.
anyone has any feedback on cell_man packs? i think that would be best source indeed..
deVries wrote:Before buying from anyone I would suggest getting the "pressure questions" answered from now on...
John in CR wrote:I need to pull 300A peaks for up to 30sec. Dare I try it with 1p of my AMP20's or should I use 10-15p of my old M1's so I can spread it over plenty of connections?
deVries wrote:If you don't have your A123 20Ah cells under the proper pressure range evenly distributed according to specs, then it's better to go with cylindrical cells which contain/maintain the pressure correctly already.

Start here and read following posts afterwords...

A123 20Ah Pressure Specs

Check This Too & Read the Following Post for Sure to See the Correction! :twisted:

.
oatnet wrote:You are still making recommendations about cells you have never seen or touched? :roll:
And after all this time you still have not built an ebike or even a pack for an ebike? :roll:
Give it up, poser. :lol:

-JD
To Oatnet/JD...
In answer to your first question just above I've seen lots of the cells. I don't have "to touch" these to know a lot about A123 20Ah cells. Dip shheeeit...

To answer your second question you're simply lying! You don't know jack!

This is the 3rd time you've made your TROLL APPEARANCE falsifying accusations that are simply arrogant lying! Trolling to harass me.

Stop wasting bandwidth JD, Oatnet, TROLL that loves to post OT about this for the 3rd time.

You lied about shipping your A123 20Ah cells "legally" last year too, and then you jumped-on someone for thinking about the possibility of doing just exactly what you actually did too! Hypocrite.

Here is the truth about WHY JD, Oatnet is being such a total troll jerk...

Why Oatnet JD Trolls After Me

Btw JD/Oatnet, why don't you do something useful and either post where I'm misleading people with disinformation in a specific thread staying ON TOPIC (not hijacking OT), or, better yet, please spend your time posting useful information advancing "the cause" rather than focusing specifically on me. :idea:

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 13 2013 6:57am

I have never had an A123 20ah cell in my hands and from reading this forum I don't think I ever will.

Puffy leaky A123 cells ?

And all that talk about compressing them ?

Y'all have scared me away from them for sure !

It is the ones in the little cans that are great.

I am still running a pack of them from 2006 and not a puffer or leaker in the bunch.

So far the A123 20ah cells on ebikes looks like a big fail.

I don't think they are rugged enough for ebike use.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by oatnet » Sep 13 2013 7:21am

Devries wrote:In answer to your first question just above I've seen lots of the cells. I don't have "to touch" these to know a lot about A123 20Ah cells. Dip shheeeit...
Yes. Yes you do need to have built something with the cells to have a clue about building a battery pack with them. You have to have built a battery pack to have a clue about building a battery pack. You have to have built an ebike to have a clue about building an ebike.

You have not not built an ebike, a battery pack, handled the pouches, or seen the cells In Person, so you are an "armchair engineer" with no understand of what it takes to actually engineer something, and you are spreading disinformation about these cells. You are so clueless about the pouch cells that no vendor will even sell you the cells.

Etriker's comment above is an example of how your disinformation negatively impacts the community.

I have handled more than 500 of the a123 pouch cells in the past 3-4 years, I have built dozen or so a123 packs, and I have done nothing special for compression - and I have multiple build logs I can point to about how I implemented them. The only cells that ever puffed were a 4-cell block that I failed to balance with the pack I added them too and accidentally drained completely flat. If I were pulling 20c+, I would definitely compresses the pack. At the 1c/2c or even 5c level typical of ebikes, I'd just mount them in a close-fitting box.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 13 2013 7:23am

etriker wrote:I have never had an A123 20ah cell in my hands and from reading this forum I don't think I ever will.

Puffy leaky A123 cells ?

And all that talk about compressing them ?

Y'all have scared me away from them for sure !

It is the ones in the little cans that are great.

I am still running a pack of them from 2006 and not a puffer or leaker in the bunch.

So far the A123 20ah cells on ebikes looks like a big fail.

I don't think they are rugged enough for ebike use.
I agree with everything you say. You are smart and correct, imo.

Some smart ES guys are trying to figure-out how to compress these A123 20Ah pouches properly, but I haven't seen the solution yet! :(

Also, it is now possible to get EIG 20Ah cells that only require 1psi, THAT'S RIGHT, 1psi according to an EIG employee I have contacted and confirmed about this "pressure issue" that does NOT exist with EIG cells.

Basically, EIG now wins in the 20Ah prismatic pouch category! :twisted:

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 13 2013 7:31am

oatnet wrote:
Devries wrote:In answer to your first question just above I've seen lots of the cells. I don't have "to touch" these to know a lot about A123 20Ah cells. Dip shheeeit...
Yes. Yes you do need to have built something with the cells to have a clue about building a battery pack with them. You have to have built a battery pack to have a clue about building a battery pack. You have to have built an ebike to have a clue about building an ebike.

You have not not built an ebike, a battery pack, handled the pouches, or seen the cells In Person, so you are an "armchair engineer" with no understand of what it takes to actually engineer something, and you are spreading disinformation about these cells. You are so clueless about the pouch cells that no vendor will even sell you the cells.

Etriker's comment above is an example of how your disinformation negatively impacts the community.

I have handled more than 500 of the a123 pouch cells in the past 3-4 years, I have built dozen or so a123 packs, and I have done nothing special for compression - and I have multiple build logs I can point to about how I implemented them. The only cells that ever puffed were a 4-cell block that I failed to balance with the pack I added them too and accidentally drained completely flat. If I were pulling 20c+, I would definitely compresses the pack. At the 1c/2c or even 5c level typical of ebikes, I'd just mount them in a close-fitting box.

-JD
It was all the pictures people posted. Hard to deny those.

I think the A123 20ah cell was designed to be placed in the factory holders and ride around in a pricey smooth riding ecar not an ebike like I ride ebikes and etrikes.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 13 2013 7:34am

oatnet wrote:You have to have built a battery pack to have a clue about building a battery pack. You have to have built an ebike to have a clue about building an ebike.

You have not not built an ebike, a battery pack, handled the pouches, or seen the cells In Person, so you are an "armchair engineer" with no understand of what it takes to actually engineer something, and you are spreading disinformation about these cells. You are so clueless about the pouch cells that no vendor will even sell you the cells.
Poor, poor, Oatnet, JD, now you just continue to spread lies and disinformation about me! Troll, troll, troll, troll, that's 4 times now you spread lies!!! :evil:

No one has had these 20Ah cells for much more than about a year including you! Since when did you get these 20Ah A123 cells in your hands to touch? :roll: These cells are designed under specification by A123, not your specs, and you are clueless whether ANY of your handmade packs you've personally "touched" sexy :lol: are going to last out to 10 years... that's about the potential lifespan IF built into a proper battery.

Btw, I believe, and have stated this before your FIRST TROLL appearance that Doctorbass and his method will probably work, IMO. So, IMO, I'm 'not' in the 10-15+psi camp, though this is DEFINITELY 'not' according to A123 specification. I DEFINITELY will 'not' be using the 20Ah A123 cells, because there are many many proven cell failures with "handmade" jobs similar to yours too! :P Too touchy feel-ly for me to want to handle and risk losing big money at $70 per cell, when I can get other high quality cells that do NOT have this same higher psi "pressure issue" for slightly less money.

This is your FIFTH TROLL appearance JD/Oatnet. Congratulations on being a complete assh. :evil:

My Disclaimer to JD/Oatnet every time he magically appears as his usual troll self:

Btw JD/Oatnet, why don't you do something useful and either post where I'm misleading people with disinformation in a specific thread staying ON TOPIC (not hijacking OT), or, better yet, please spend your time posting useful information advancing "the cause" rather than focusing specifically on me.
Last edited by deVries on Sep 13 2013 8:54am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by bigmoose » Sep 13 2013 8:11am

Tested conjecture is experience. Experience refines the design. Experience trumps pure analytically studies. In my past business we modeled the daylights out of the design. 3D this and finite element that, add a dose of finite difference and chant a few words over the cray... the real answer to if the design was good enough was not really known 'till the fire was lit and the bird took flight... and returned.

There's a lot of discontent in the world these days, twas nice to have the ol' board smooth and comfortable like old friends around the table. Takes everyone to make it that way and to make the new folks welcome.

My opinion on the A123 pouch cells, and I stated it before is any amount of pressure helps. When I first bought mine, I did not know that they needed to have compression of the order of 10 psi. The extra hardware to do that is adding weight and space. I am rethinking if pouch is the best package. I am going to assume that all pouches need pressure, and EVEN pressure. Simple shrink wrap doesn't do it. It compresses the edges and the flat plane of the cells get almost no pressure. I am starting to think that cylindrical cells may well be worth considering again.
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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by davec » Sep 13 2013 9:40am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axLnLcH_mmM

compression shouldnt be all that hard- all you really need is those aluminum cell holders(heat sink plates), 2 end plates, and a compression belt. if you're already paying top dollar the least they could do is throw some hardware in

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 13 2013 10:28am

bigmoose wrote:Tested conjecture is experience. Experience refines the design. Experience trumps pure analytically studies.
One of the main purposes of the ES forum is to share one's experience AND ideas to further everyone's learning. I can and do learn from other people's experience posted about these cells on ES, as that is a primary purpose for being here too! Also, if A123 has specific design specs, then I'm interested in following those recommendations when possible. Experience has already shown many cell failures with "handmade" A123 20Ah batteries. Experience over the next 10 years will prove what works and doesn't work.

I'm avoiding this whole issue by not using A123 20Ah cells, when a better solution already is available at a 1psi rating with lower cost too. 8)

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 13 2013 11:05am

devires go buy some cells build and post. My work great 300 cycles and 4.000 miles. Just wrapped with mega force.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by deVries » Sep 13 2013 12:06pm

999zip999 wrote:devires go buy some cells build and post. My work great 300 cycles and 4.000 miles. Just wrapped with mega force.
I am buying EIG cells and will build and post too.

I have nothing against anyone building A123 20Ah batteries outside of A123 company specifications. Each person has their own risk assessment to make.

$70 per cell + a minimum of 20 cell purchase + about $50 for shipping is about $1,450.00 I do not want to put at risk with a handmade battery pack that I know I can build very well too.

It's just not worth the risk for me to do it, and there are plenty of other people already running this experiment with A123 20Ah cells. It will be at least the year 2017 before we can say which A123 20Ah battery builds are working for long-term use.

Meanwhile, I'll be running my EIG 20Ah cells hoping to do better... that's a risk I'm willing to take personally and will document on ES too! :twisted:

I'm certain Oatnet/JD won't be able to resist checking-out that topic too. :lol:

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by oatnet » Sep 13 2013 6:59pm

devries wrote:No one has had these 20Ah cells for much more than about a year including you! Since when did you get these 20Ah A123 cells in your hands to touch?
Thanks for proving my point about your spreading disinformation.  The 20ah a123 pouches were introduced on endless sphere in 2009, and here is that 2009 sale thread where I bought mine:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 31&t=14832

devries wrote:now you just continue to spread lies and disinformation about me! Troll, troll, troll, troll, that's 4 times now you spread lies!!!  
Feel free to prove me wrong by post links to any contributions you have made actually building an eBike, or an eBike pack, or personally molested a cell in any fashion.  Lets see the depth of your experience, my experience is documented by the links in my signature.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by etriker » Sep 13 2013 7:41pm

That is a strange thread indeed.

Cell markings removed or covered up ? And LFP loves them ? They can't be A123 ? :)

I have been testing out cellman's claims in the last post for about 2 years.

I am having good results with soldering A123m1 cells too.

They are easy to solder together and they hold up after being soldered, so far
Last edited by etriker on Sep 13 2013 7:59pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [rant] If A123 cells are so great....

Post by arkmundi » Sep 13 2013 7:55pm

oatnet wrote:I have handled more than 500 of the a123 pouch cells in the past 3-4 years, I have built dozen or so a123 packs, and I have done nothing special for compression - and I have multiple build logs I can point to about how I implemented them. The only cells that ever puffed were a 4-cell block that I failed to balance with the pack I added them too and accidentally drained completely flat. If I were pulling 20c+, I would definitely compresses the pack. At the 1c/2c or even 5c level typical of ebikes, I'd just mount them in a close-fitting box.
-JD
Thanks for the suggestion! I've been pondering the rationale for compression, per wb9k' postings. Are all those packs in your possession still? How many cycles you up to on them?

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