A123 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

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evdmcorp   100 µW

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by evdmcorp » Nov 19 2013 11:23am

RedLine19K wrote:If the demand for these $1/Wh batteries was that strong, BuyA123 could split their own cases and offer singles at $80. Whether the sales agreement allows it, shipping is feasible and people would actually pay it is the unknown.
Here's the math on "splitting a case":

The AMP20 module has an energy capacity that REQUIRES dangerous goods shipping (either ground or air), and as such triggers dangerous goods fees and paperwork on all shipments. UPS has a flat $27.50 fee for dangerous goods shipments. Also required is UNDOT tested/approved packaging. Uline.com has a stock box that would work that is almost $8. This is before any shipping charges come into play. Assume a single cell shipped will be between $10-20. Let's add it up:

Cell cost: $70
UNDOT approved box: $8
UPS Dangerous Goods fee: $27.50
Shipping: $10 to $20

TOTAL: $115.50 to $125.50

The above doesn't take into account the extra time it takes to produce the DG paperwork that needs to go on every box.

I'm not sure how many cells I could reasonably fit in the stock battery shipper box after making sure everything is properly padded/insulated, but obviously spreading out the flat fees (DG/packaging) over more cells reduces the per cell cost of shipping.

However, I think you would be much better off working with the other form factors even if it means dealing with more physical cells. You don't need to worry about proper packaging and cell compression, and the smaller cells would allow you to do some more creative configurations that would not be possible with the AMP20.

If you want to experiment, I still have a bunch of the older ANR26650M1A B-Grade cells with the PET (plastic) wrapper and have recently been told that A123 has a bunch (over 10k) of them with paper wrapper that would be slightly less expensive than the PET wrapped cells.

I like what the community is doing and want to help you out, but my options on the AMP20 are very limited.

If you want to experiment with the older ANR26650M1A cells, I'll do free shipping on them until the end of the month if you use this coupon code:

ESFREESHIP

--Erik @ EVDM (buyA123batteries.com)
Erik Vandermey, EVDM Corporation
buya123batteries.com - Online Reseller of A123 Systems Cells & Batteries
A123 Cylindrical Battery Pack Design, Validation, and Assembly Guide and more: assets.buya123batteries.com

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by evdmcorp » Nov 19 2013 11:30am

evdmcorp wrote: Cell cost: $70
I forgot that in order to split a case, I would need a case shipped to me first (more shipping charges), so the cell cost is more like $73-75. It just gets more expensive the more I think about it :-(

--Erik @ EVDM (buyA123batteries.com)
Erik Vandermey, EVDM Corporation
buya123batteries.com - Online Reseller of A123 Systems Cells & Batteries
A123 Cylindrical Battery Pack Design, Validation, and Assembly Guide and more: assets.buya123batteries.com

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by Punx0r » Nov 19 2013 3:40pm

arkmundi wrote:
Punx0r wrote:It seems like an opportunity for a entrepreneurial reseller located inside the U.S....
How do you see that working?
I figured a chap with cash-on-the-hip could buy =>1 case, split them out and sell in single unit+ quantities at a per-cell price worth his while.

However, the points Erik raises mean this probably won't work. I though the expensive shipping was due to getting the cells into the U.S. I didn't realise internal postage would also be prohibitively costly.

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by evdmcorp » Nov 19 2013 3:47pm

Punx0r wrote:I though the expensive shipping was due to getting the cells into the U.S.
The AMP20 cells that I'm reselling are made in Livonia, Michigan.

--Erik @ EVDM (buyA123batteries.com)
Erik Vandermey, EVDM Corporation
buya123batteries.com - Online Reseller of A123 Systems Cells & Batteries
A123 Cylindrical Battery Pack Design, Validation, and Assembly Guide and more: assets.buya123batteries.com

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by RedLine19K » Nov 19 2013 8:40pm

Thanks for the detailed response! So, it just seems like buying 20ahs is just too expensive to be workable. I bet a lot of A123s former customer's reached the same conclusion. :D

I have 60 26650s already, but soldering 8s8p for the same capacity is a PITA. It's roughly half the price so if I want the durability of LiFePO4, it's the best option.


I'll keep checking to see if anything changes. Good luck.

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by sendler2112 » Nov 19 2013 10:39pm

It's hard to spend $70+ per cell when you can still get cut tab Amp20 cells from China for $20+

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by evdmcorp » Nov 19 2013 10:50pm

sendler2112 wrote:It's hard to spend $70+ per cell when you can still get cut tab Amp20 cells from China for $20+
The "cut tab" cells are factory "rejects" and "scrap". They left the factory to be recycled but never got to the recycler. A123 noticed that these cells were showing up on Ebay and such and then instructed the factory to "cut the tabs off" and not long after that the "cut tab" cells started showing up.

You take big risks buying these cells. As long as you know that going in...

--Erik @ EVDM (buyA123batteries.com)
Last edited by evdmcorp on Nov 25 2013 3:37pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by tome » Nov 19 2013 11:25pm

evdmcorp wrote: The AMP20 cells that I'm reselling are made in Livonia, Michigan.
--Erik @ EVDM (buyA123batteries.com)
Erik,
I live in the area (near Livonia). Are there any deals to be had by going directly to the factory or picking up an order?
Tom

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by sendler2112 » Nov 20 2013 6:22am

evdmcorp wrote:
sendler2112 wrote:It's hard to spend $70+ per cell when you can still get cut tab Amp20 cells from China for $20+
The "cut tab" cells are Chinese factory "rejects" and "scrap".
Not true. They are new, recycled from OEM packs that were ordered and never claimed by companies such as Fiskar and are "cut" to get them out of the packs. Everyone on here has had good luck with these cells except for some shoddy assembly of pre made packs from VicPower.

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by davec » Nov 20 2013 12:11pm

accoring to Erik - it is not a retail location but a factory so it's not possible to pick up locally
@sendler- the grey market cells have been tested extensively and based on the tests they fall short to the legitimate cells by 2ah, also they are a hazard with cosmetics defects, puffs,wrinkles, pin holes. this is not stuff you wanna be around
@redline - those small cylinder cells make sence, i think he is selling them at 5.00/per cell + free shipping- that's like 40 dollars for 20ah, 8 x2.5ah , no compression is needed, but still assembly is labour intensive, and if one cell goes bad than you got a headaque doing replacements vs replacing 1 pouch

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by arkmundi » Nov 20 2013 12:42pm

tome wrote:
evdmcorp wrote: The AMP20 cells that I'm reselling are made in Livonia, Michigan.
--Erik @ EVDM (buyA123batteries.com)
I live in the area (near Livonia). Are there any deals to be had by going directly to the factory or picking up an order?
Tom
Back before A123 went into bankruptcy, I started the Petition A123 Systems for factory access thread, along with calls to the corporate office. I even managed to talk with a VP. It was clear that their operation was setup for millions of cells and dabling with LEV market would not scale profitably. But I agree, if they are now sending out single cartons of 20 cells, then they should be willing to let a truck pull up to the loading bay for that carton, or more. With regards to shipping, I proved to myself that USPS lets these cellls ship ground wihtout any fuss. Its UPS and FedEx that are making all the fuss. So this could be easy and work, if someone like Tom were to pick a carton up and then USPS them out to folks like us.

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by RedLine19K » Nov 20 2013 4:49pm

davec wrote: that's like 40 dollars for 20ah, 8 x2.5ah
Just to be clear, it's the older 2.3 Ah ANR26650M1A for $5. They are labeled B grade (still rated quality, just discontinued). The M1B (confusing, I know) are 2.5 AH and $9.25 or less in any useful quantity. The hassle of 8p is equivalent to engineering compression for the 20ah so that's a wash. If you prefer safety and durability over energy density and lower cost, A123 is still a good option and BuyA123 has 1000s of them.

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by evdmcorp » Nov 20 2013 5:34pm

arkmundi wrote:With regards to shipping, I proved to myself that USPS lets these cellls ship ground wihtout any fuss. Its UPS and FedEx that are making all the fuss. So this could be easy and work, if someone like Tom were to pick a carton up and then USPS them out to folks like us.
It's not that easy. Really, it isn't.

From the USPS website (http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52apxc_043.htm):
Domestic Mail: Primary and secondary lithium cells and batteries installed in or packed with equipment are mailable via air or surface transportation. Primary lithium cells and batteries not packed with or installed in equipment (individual batteries) are mailable via surface transportation only.
Secondary (lithium ion) cells and batteries CANNOT be shipped by themselves. Primary (lithium metal) can.
International Mail or to and from APO, FPO, and DPO locations: Primary and secondary lithium cells and batteries installed in the equipment they are intended to operate are mailable. Primary and secondary lithium cells and batteries not packed in equipment (i.e., batteries packed with equipment or individual batteries) are prohibited.
Only cells and batteries INSTALLED in equipment can be shipped internationally.

And with the AMP20, you're not even dealing with a consumer commodity battery that could be classified as ORM-D (do not even think of trying this).

The shippers (e.g. UPS, FedEx, DHL) are closely monitored for hazmat violations. As a dangerous goods shipper, if I get 3 violations in a 6 month rolling window, UPS/FedEx/DHL are required to suspend my dangerous goods account for 90 days. Something as simple as a missing tracking/AWB number on one of the forms or a weight incorrectly specified (e.g. kg instead of kg G) counts as a violation. And each shipper has their own way in which they like to see paperwork and labeling.

If you managed to ship a lithium battery by itself via USPS, you should be glad you weren't caught*.

* the current rules were put into effect Jan 1, 2013, so if you shipped before then, it might have been OK, but it depends on the size/capacity/number of batteries you shipped.

--Erik @ EVDM (buyA123batteries.com)
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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by arkmundi » Nov 20 2013 6:52pm

evdmcorp wrote:If you managed to ship a lithium battery by itself via USPS, you should be glad you weren't caught*.
From the AMP20M1HD-A Prismatic Cell group buy feeler failed attempt
arkmundi wrote:I was at the Post Office today, so asked "I have a lithium-ion battery that I want to ship. What do I have to do?" Answer: "just put it in a box and send it ground." So, "Its hazmat, doesn't it need special packaging and handling?" Answer: "No, just send it parcel, ground." So, "No certification or anything?" Answer: "No." Hmmm, it really makes me wonder.

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by evdmcorp » Nov 20 2013 7:20pm

arkmundi wrote:
evdmcorp wrote:If you managed to ship a lithium battery by itself via USPS, you should be glad you weren't caught*.
From the AMP20M1HD-A Prismatic Cell group buy feeler failed attempt
arkmundi wrote:I was at the Post Office today, so asked "I have a lithium-ion battery that I want to ship. What do I have to do?" Answer: "just put it in a box and send it ground." So, "Its hazmat, doesn't it need special packaging and handling?" Answer: "No, just send it parcel, ground." So, "No certification or anything?" Answer: "No." Hmmm, it really makes me wonder.
A Google search yielded this:

http://www.manufacturing.net/articles/2 ... ed-devices
Beware of helpful employees or colleagues bearing mis-information about lithium battery shipping. The most prevalent piece of bad advice goes something like this: “Oh, don’t worry, it’s an ‘excepted’ lithium battery because it’s under 100 Wh or 2 grams — it’s not restricted.” That piece of bad information is pervasive and even many of the carriers don’t understand the nuances of the rules. Your response should be: there is never a circumstance (ever) where a lithium battery is non-restricted. Period.
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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by arkmundi » Apr 23 2014 7:39pm

I'd welcome expert opinion on this offer. The offer:
ANR26650M1A Cell (B-GRADE)
MSRP $9.75
Sale Price: $4.50
Savings: $5.25

But they were manufactured in 2006-8, so 8 years ago. Though never used.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:28 PM, <erik@evdmcorp.com> wrote:
April 23rd, 2014 NEWSLETTER

We've got the last of the ANR26650M1A cells with a paper wrapper now in stock for immediate purchase. These are B-GRADE cells and are the last of this generation available -- when they are gone, they are GONE!

We're selling at a very aggressive price in quantities of 10 or larger. Purchases over $1000 get free shipping in the US/Canada region. International customers should contact sales@evdmcorp.com for an international shipping quote and international shipping coupon code prior to purchase. Please let us know the quantity and shipping destination (at least country, city, and postal code) for accurate quoting.

What is a B-Grade Cell?

A B-Grade cell is one that:
- May not meet A123 cosmetic criteria
- May be under the minimum capacity for that particular cell type
- May be too old to sell as new
- May have a higher DCR/ACR than A123 specification
- Any combination of the above

A123 was not specific on which of the above cases apply to what I have on the store, however, these cells were produced in the 2006 to 2008 timeframe, so they are not new.

Erik Vandermey
erik@evdmcorp.com

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by arkmundi » Apr 23 2014 8:33pm

On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Erik Vandermey <erik@evdmcorp.com> wrote:
I'll do $4 each (minimum of 100 cells) with this coupon:
ANR26650M1A-BGRADE
Share the coupon if you like. Unlimited use coupon.
These are 2.3/2.2 AHr (nominal/minimum) cells. The current version is 2.5/2.4 Ahr (nominal/minimum). Most that I have tested at random are 3.20-3.30 V. Nobody who has purchased them has complained and I've sold almost 5000 of them.
arkmundi wrote:I'd welcome expert opinion on this offer. The offer:
ANR26650M1A Cell (B-GRADE)
MSRP $9.75
Sale Price: $4.50
Savings: $5.25.....

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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by wb9k » Apr 23 2014 11:39pm

Hi Ark,

The price on these M1 26650s is certainly good, and the stated voltage readings by the vendor are a good sign. The most important thing to know for older cells that are unused is storage conditions, particularly lack of extended exposure to high temperatures and high moisture. If storage has been dry (more important for paper sleeve cells than PET sleeve cells) and at room temp or below, all should be just fine. Permanent capacity losses will be small. I'm not sure how you would go about verifying these things, seems difficult to impossible for an end user. Is there any warranty against DOA cells?

If you can use the package being offered by Sybesma's Electronics at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =9&t=58426 , this may be a more appealing option for the following reasons:

1) These are the same cells as the $4.50 offer (some are used, some are new), at almost the same price per cell (about $5/cell).
2) They come already assembled in a professional, robust package designed for automotive environments that can be configured a couple different ways (13.2V/38-48 Ah or 26.4V/19-24 Ah).
3) Perhaps most importantly, the modules from Sybesma's come with ACTUAL TEST RESULTS, so you will know exactly what the capacity and impedance is of the exact unit you are buying. It's difficult for me to understand why people here aren't flocking to buy these based on this fact alone, unless they're just inappropriate for your desired application. Just tell them your desired capacity level, and they'll find them in their inventory. No need to worry about duds or any kind of unknown performance characteristics.
4) I CAN vouch for the storage conditions and overall condition of these cells and modules, and they have been good to excellent.
5) All of these cells were A-grade in their time, as opposed to the cells from the website which now appear to me to have been B-grade all along. This is not what I thought to be the case when I first saw these cells offered. While the price still may be a relatively good bargain, there are several variables which MIGHT make assembling an ideal pack difficult or at least more complicated unless you buy extras so you can match cells as desired. The thing that bothers me most here is the lack of control or testing of what's going out. I would expect that each cell will be usable, but exactly how good it is for you is difficult to discern with any degree of precision without testing cells yourself after you receive them.

Those are the things I would be considering. I hope that's helpful.
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Re: A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by arkmundi » Apr 24 2014 5:55am

thanks for the suggestion of
wb9k wrote:package being offered by Sybesma's Electronics at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =9&t=58426....
and other suggestions and tips on buying, building and using the A123 nanophosphate cells...

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Re: A123 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by davec » Apr 24 2014 9:30am

yeah those little cells are amazing- i still see orion busses in my city using them and these were put in service years ago.
their properly compressed last thousands of miles with only a small drop in cap yet retain a good IR - this would be the way to go and has been pulled off by many on here. my only issue is no one in my town has a spot welder- and the shop that does wont help. im hoping a123 comes out with 10ah cylinder or bigger format cells in future that are easier to work with. the 20ah are ok but getting the compression right+ adding tabs is a technical matter for pro's- also their track record is still in review even though they have been used in many vehicles out there

yes and unfortunately shipping lith has changed- i remember the days where no one cared- you'd put all the cells in a box and ship via usps- and thats what i did few years back. now days usps will accept "only if you dont tell them its lithium" either that or a staff that dont care. but if something goes wrong or if they find out its lith that would not be good. trick is to find a friend that has that hazmat certification, and have him drop it off at ups location. the course itself is 2grand. finding such a contact can be challenging

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Re: A123 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by TMaster » Apr 24 2014 12:18pm

I ordered 10 of the M1 cells last week to finish my modification from 3P to 4P. Erik shipped them out the same day. Very Very happy with the service.

Everything Erik stated above is correct about the cells. :)

2 of the cells were 2029 and 2065 Mah. I tried cycling them at 3ah and 5ah to 3.60 to 2.00V and they pretty much stayed the same capacity. The rest of the cells were in the range of 2215 to 2307 and 1 was 2110mah. So 7 out of 10 cells were within Factory spec of new. One weird thing was most of the cells didn't have the A123 burned in stamp on the paper cell cover. But the laser Production number stamp on the cell itself of all the cells were they same, just a different number. So they must be all genuine.

All of the cells were around 3.25V-3.29V resting voltage when I got them. The capacity of the cells when they arrived were all over the place, some were almost full, some were half and some were almost empty.

***Some of the cells only had 300 to 500 mah of capacity left in them when they arrived. So Erik if you are reading this post, not sure if it is worth your time to charge up each cell for 5-10 min each but if you have these cells any longer than another year I'm guessing some will be dead by then. Just use a mini quick clamp or magnetic charge leads to do them. ***

I only needed 6 cells to finish the conversion so the less capacity ones I will keep for spares if I have a cell go bad.
My setup is 4 years old now and a lot of the cells I have in my setup have a capacity of 1950-2050 already. So its really no big deal for me to use the weaker cells.

On another note I bought some old Dewalt packs off ebay and only half the cells in the packs were good enough to use. I paid around $3-$4 a cell for them with the shipping. It was really not worth messing with or buying them. Erik has a better deal.

One thing I think about for the future is one of these days I will have to either go to the newer Green A123 cell or an 18650 cell. Another 3 or 4 years and my batteries will be shot. heh. I may have to order a few extras this year from him so I have a repair reserve. I had a couple cells go bad inside my packs last year.

A note on the prismatics, They are not as old as the M1 cells. I thought A123 manufactured those back in 2010, but correct me if I'm wrong. Half the age of the M1's. Also the capacity is huge so they should all be in great shape.
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Re: A123 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by evdmcorp » May 16 2014 5:29pm

TMaster wrote:A note on the prismatics, They are not as old as the M1 cells. I thought A123 manufactured those back in 2010, but correct me if I'm wrong. Half the age of the M1's. Also the capacity is huge so they should all be in great shape.
FYI: The AMP20 cells that I'm selling are CURRENT PRODUCTION as in manufactured as recently as a few months ago. I toured the A123 factory in Livonia, MI last month (got my own private "How It's Made" tour). It is an amazing facility. They have optimized their production line so that the cells are handled by hand as little as possible to prevent damage. Special crates are used during the production of the cells so that they can be tested/stored without needing to pull them out of the crates. Everything is barcoded and tracked throughout. Robots are used to assemble the cells into larger packs for end use applications. The cells are interconnected via laser welded straps. Everything is tested and verified before it move onto the next step. The facility is spotless and clean -- anyone who has ever stepped inside a lead-acid battery factory (or steel mill) will appreciate this. I could go on and on. It was really cool.

However, what really sticks with me though is the attention to detail at all stages of the process. Which brings me to this recommendation: please, please, please try as much as possible to use cylindrical cells in your battery pack designs. There is so much less to worry about when it comes to physical assembly and construction of a pack. It may seem easier on paper to deal with one prismatic pouch vs. 8 cylindrical cells, but in reality, it is quite the opposite.

--Erik @ EVDM (buyA123batteries.com)
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Re: A123 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by tomjasz » Jul 16 2014 1:19pm

Being very new, and struggling to understand battery systems, I have a very basic question. I followed links to your pages and saw the ALM_12V7.
Could three ALM_12V7 be used as a battery group to power a 36V system? It seems a very clean and reasonably small package, and under albs, as an Ebike battery set.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: A123 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by eBikeWannaBe » Jul 16 2014 6:53pm

tomjasz wrote:Being very new, and struggling to understand battery systems, I have a very basic question. I followed links to your pages and saw the ALM_12V7.
Could three ALM_12V7 be used as a battery group to power a 36V system? It seems a very clean and reasonably small package, and under albs, as an Ebike battery set.
Those batteries are 4.6AH so your range would be rather limited.

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Re: A123 Cells, new, legit, factory direct!

Post by wb9k » Jul 16 2014 9:11pm

eBikeWannaBe wrote:
tomjasz wrote:Being very new, and struggling to understand battery systems, I have a very basic question. I followed links to your pages and saw the ALM_12V7.
Could three ALM_12V7 be used as a battery group to power a 36V system? It seems a very clean and reasonably small package, and under albs, as an Ebike battery set.
Those batteries are 4.6AH so your range would be rather limited.
Yep. The 12V7 has 26650's inside in 4S2P. Not an optimal package for this type of application. You could run a gang of them in series-parallel to get more capacity, but that would just get silly. I believe 48V is the limit for stringing them in series. No limit to the number of parallel packs that I'm aware of.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

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