Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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mistercrash   10 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by mistercrash » Sep 14 2013 4:39pm

deVries wrote:I just used a measuring tape to eyeball it fairly accurately.

Is that accurate enough for you?
I would've preferred you used something more awesome like lazers but it will do. Thanks :lol:
Send $10 at paypal.me/Ray1964 and you will be in my thoughts and prayers.

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LSBW   1 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by LSBW » Sep 14 2013 4:49pm

As a matter of fact, victpower bought these basically garbage cells for $1 a piece and sold them assembled in packs for $27.
Whoever bought these certainly got a "bargain" :)

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by fechter » Sep 14 2013 6:02pm

I'm using some recycled first gen. Hymotion A123 bricks on my bike. I cut one cell out of the middle of each 11p group, making two 5p groups. I have a 10Ah 16s pack about the size of shoebox.
A123 pack1.jpg
A123 pack1.jpg (84.93 KiB) Viewed 2927 times
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

deVries   1 MW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by deVries » Sep 14 2013 6:14pm

fechter wrote:I'm using some recycled first gen. Hymotion A123 bricks on my bike. I cut one cell out of the middle of each 11p group, making two 5p groups. I have a 10Ah 16s pack about the size of shoebox.
A123 pack1.jpg
Hey, great idea and post Fechter... 8)

Maybe 'that' shoebox size is small enough for a Brompton and Cwah? That poor-batt guy hasn't found his final battery solution in well over a year now! He could even charge that fast at work rather safely vs LiPo.

This opens "the door" for lightweight and small space/fit requirements but with a shorter range solution.

Thanks again 'fechter' the genius guy. :D

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by cwah » Sep 14 2013 6:48pm

I'm currently upgrading my A123 20AH to 18650 cells. The reason is very simple:
- 133wh/kg at best for A123 cells. Much lower for cylindrical cells
- Up to 250wh/kg for the Panasonic NCR18650B cells. The lower density and with 500 cycles to 88% Sony Konion V3 are at 184wh/kg

I think these modules are excellent for trike/scooter/car. But for bike, weight is at a premium I can't sacrifice.
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

999zip999   100 GW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 14 2013 7:25pm

Like little angry childern will you guys quit running people off E.S.

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by wb9k » Sep 14 2013 11:19pm

Well, this is a bit out of left field for me. E-Triker, I have no idea why you're so mad at me. I had nothing to do with you're banning, and today is the first I've even heard about it. I wondered where you had gone, but I had no idea you had been banned. I'm not sure I understand why the moderators would have banned you for repeating what I've said here before and continue to stand by, but that's for them to answer if they so choose. Maybe they don't want to get embroiled in a game of "telephone libel" where the true story slowly morphs into something unrecognizable and legally actionable as it passes from the original source to others. If Victpower wants to challenge me on this, I'm right here. Come confront me about it--all the better if in public. Let them name the A123 sales rep who sold them their cells if that's their claim. They can't, because there isn't one. There is no way that A123 would have worked with any operation that was putting the kind of crap they did out into the field. I know this well, because getting the company to deal with somebody reputable was next to impossible back then if they weren't dealing in huge volumes. I've also seen pics of the material in question, and it's obvious most of the material was culled from campaigned modules, most of which were originally built for Fisker. A123 PAID to have that material destroyed by an outside entity. I know because I was there.

As far as being ticked at me because I echoed the sentiment that all the pissing contests are not helpful....can't help you there. I've appreciated your moral support in the past, but it's no fun to read death spirals about who's got the most experience, even when you've got a point. I've been guilty of that kind of thing too, but give it a rest. And now you demand to know if I've ever been on an e-bike. Yes, I have, but very little and I've never owned one. Do you drive a PHEV? I assure you, I've got a pretty good idea of how these systems work and what A123's cells can do in the real world. I'm disappointed to see you give away all your A123 material out of spite for me, but I sure can't stop you.

I wish you the best of luck and success in the future.
Last edited by wb9k on Sep 15 2013 2:10am, edited 1 time in total.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

wb9k   10 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by wb9k » Sep 14 2013 11:23pm

fechter wrote:I'm using some recycled first gen. Hymotion A123 bricks on my bike. I cut one cell out of the middle of each 11p group, making two 5p groups. I have a 10Ah 16s pack about the size of shoebox.
A123 pack1.jpg
Interesting modification to the architecture. Not something I would generally recommend, but a clever way to get bigger Voltage into that little package.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

wb9k   10 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by wb9k » Sep 15 2013 1:44am

Attached is a document describing the Hymotion modules. I'll be happy to answer any questions. Moderators, if this belongs in the "For Sale" section, please feel free to move the thread.

Thanks all!
Attachments
Guide to A123 Hymotion Battery Modules.pdf
Hymotion module details
(778.74 KiB) Downloaded 115 times
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

etriker   100 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by etriker » Sep 15 2013 7:39am

Had 30 days to study on it and think about it.

Came up with that it is wrong to repeat unnamed hearsy about stuff as serious as grand theft

And please, stop saying it. It was not just Victpower selling them.

Cellman was too and other respected members.

Maybe my cells were stolen at some point too ? That is what you put in my head.

A123, what a bummer. :(

Do A123 and yourself a favor, let it go, get over it, move on.

They would never answer my emails or questions. They were too big to answer an ebikers questions.

My A123 days are over. etriker now rides out with non-stolen gbs cells. :)

http://www.gbsystem.com/about_en.asp (answers emails)
wb9k wrote:Well, this is a bit out of left field for me. E-Triker, I have no idea why you're so mad at me. I had nothing to do with you're banning, and today is the first I've even heard about it. I wondered where you had gone, but I had no idea you had been banned. I'm not sure I understand why the moderators would have banned you for repeating what I've said here before and continue to stand by, but that's for them to answer if they so choose. Maybe they don't want to get embroiled in a game of "telephone libel" where the true story slowly morphs into something unrecognizable and legally actionable as it passes from the original source to others. If Victpower wants to challenge me on this, I'm right here. Come confront me about it--all the better if in public. Let them name the A123 sales rep who sold them their cells if that's their claim. They can't, because there isn't one. There is no way that A123 would have worked with any operation that was putting the kind of crap they did out into the field. I know this well, because getting the company to deal with somebody reputable was next to impossible back then if they weren't dealing in huge volumes. I've also seen pics of the material in question, and it's obvious most of the material was culled from campaigned modules, most of which were originally built for Fisker. A123 PAID to have that material destroyed by an outside entity. I know because I was there.

As far as being ticked at me because I echoed the sentiment that all the pissing contests are not helpful....can't help you there. I've appreciated your moral support in the past, but it's no fun to read death spirals about who's got the most experience, even when you've got a point. I've been guilty of that kind of thing too, but give it a rest. And now you demand to know if I've ever been on an e-bike. Yes, I have, but very little and I've never owned one. Do you drive a PHEV? I assure you, I've got a pretty good idea of how these systems work and what A123's cells can do in the real world. I'm disappointed to see you give away all your A123 material out of spite for me, but I sure can't stop you.

I wish you the best of luck and success in the future.
Last edited by etriker on Sep 15 2013 9:53am, edited 8 times in total.

etriker   100 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by etriker » Sep 15 2013 7:47am

I wish you the best of luck and success in the future.

deVries   1 MW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by deVries » Sep 15 2013 9:50am

wb9k wrote:Moderators, if this belongs in the "For Sale" section, please feel free to move the thread.
This thread/topic needs to remain here in the technical battery section, and it will not become a sales thread. This is a technical thread meant to deal with all technical aspects of these modules and mods, and end use applications, etc.

A separate sales thread can be set-up in the future, once that is even on the table in perhaps the October-November time-frame, but that has not even been worked-out yet.

Modules can be sold 'there' in the For Sale section, but this topic-thread will remain strictly technical about the modules, mods, and pics of what people do with these too. :twisted:

IBScootn   100 W

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by IBScootn » Sep 15 2013 10:46am

Glad to see this thread. Three 4S11P Hymotion pack modules were given to me. Initial testes showed they still have 20AH left or about 80% original capacity. Very nicely packaged except for the balance lead for the second cell positive terminal. It appears that a copper wire is pressure fitted against those cells. I will most likely solder that connection.

I took one module and separated it into a 8S pack by separating the 11P into 5P & 6P chunks.
Motorcycles:
ZEV T7100, 84V, 60AH, 65+mph; Mods: TNC throttle, windshield, Cycle Analyst , Cell Log , and custom charger
Kymco GT300i - for long rides through the Rocky Mountains
Big EV Grin. :)

wb9k   10 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by wb9k » Sep 15 2013 1:13pm

IBScootn wrote:Glad to see this thread. Three 4S11P Hymotion pack modules were given to me. Initial testes showed they still have 20AH left or about 80% original capacity. Very nicely packaged except for the balance lead for the second cell positive terminal. It appears that a copper wire is pressure fitted against those cells. I will most likely solder that connection.

I took one module and separated it into a 8S pack by separating the 11P into 5P & 6P chunks.
Any comments on performance or how they've held up for you generally?

You can solder that copper to the nickel weld strap easily enough, but I've never seen one fail under normal use. I did burn one of the copper wires up once trying to speed balancing with a very beefy power resistor. It's pretty easy to repair if you do this, but who wants to do that?
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

IBScootn   100 W

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by IBScootn » Sep 15 2013 2:46pm

I was impressed with the overall balance of the cells during discharge.

I only did some initial tests on these modules as I'm still trying to determine the best use for them. Initial purpose for them was to convert the three 4S11P modules into three 8S5P modules for a secondary pack for my e-moto that needs 24S. This would provide less sag then my current GBS large format cells and add some more range.

Problem is the modules are too long to fit in the area I have. So I have to trim a lot of the plastic off the front and back of each module. That will have to wait for winter. It is a shame to hack these modules up as they are so professionally packaged and would be good replacements for so many 12.8V / 4S applications.

The owner of the Hymotion pack has another eleven 4S11P modules; no idea if he would make some available to the group. What do you think 4S11P modules with 80% capacity left are worth? Tempting to buy them all and build an e-moto trailer for long range cruising in the mountains.
Motorcycles:
ZEV T7100, 84V, 60AH, 65+mph; Mods: TNC throttle, windshield, Cycle Analyst , Cell Log , and custom charger
Kymco GT300i - for long rides through the Rocky Mountains
Big EV Grin. :)

wb9k   10 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by wb9k » Sep 15 2013 7:34pm

Well, this is getting interesting. In addition to these complete modules, Hank also has a bunch of raw parts for building more modules, or even whole packs. He also has several complete packs. I'm sure anyone interested in a full Hymotion pack could call Hank and he'd be willing to sell something like that directly. But beyond that, he has a mountain of parts that I'm seeing would be very useful for the crowd here. You could take the parts for a new module, modify them into a different package design, and then build without having to do surgery on an existing module. I know he has the plastic clamshells, thermistors, hardware, and I believe some of the weld straps too. No raw virgin cells, but there are other legit channels for those now. It would be a whole lot easier to build what you wanted from raw parts like that--if you can weld the cell terminals. That's the hard part of building a pack with this type of interconnect design. It may also be possible to use the clamshells with a different sort of connection method...I don't know. He also has some 26650 clamshells recycled from another program that would probably be easier for making modular building blocks. I've done that sort of stuff with those pieces, but not the Hymotion parts. Also, the Hymotion pack used an off-the-shelf BMS--I forget the maker, but those could potentially be made available as well. If anyone has any interest in this stuff, speak up and I'll get more details and we can see about getting it into the cue.

I agree with you on using 1/2 a Hymotion module as a 12V battery--they're great for that. I have one I use to drive the amplifier in my audio system (I used to work in OEM car audio and built a custom home system with a Mark Levinson automotive amplifier) and I have never had to rebalance that battery. I'm curious why your friend stopped using his Hymotion pack. Did it have a problem? With 80% of capacity remaining, it would probably still pass the end-of-line test today if all else was OK. A trailer battery behind a scooter would be a hoot. I'm told the GM guys were playing around with trailer batteries in the EV-1 days.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

IBScootn   100 W

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by IBScootn » Sep 15 2013 9:10pm

The beauty of these modules is the professional welding and fusing of the individual cells into a powerful 25.3AH (originally) 4S pack.

Yes, my friend had multiple problems with the Hymotion pack and after being repaired twice, the company went belly-up, then there was nobody to repair it when the pack's electronics died for good. Seems that the cell packaging was excellent (except for cell 2's balance lead) as all qty14 4S11P modules are good from the pack, but the inverter died once, and something else (maybe a BMS board) finally made it completely inoperable as a hymotion pack. The good thing is he got good use out of the pack until only 80% of capacity was left. Most manufacturers consider 80% to be EOL. But for me, 80% means 20Ah of very useful power! In a trailer the extra bulk is no problem.

Without the welded cells, it seems the packaging would be less than desirable as it is a bulky design and one that is extremely difficult to remove a failed cell due to the plastic sections capping all cells at the same time (unlike the headway caps that only cap two cells together).
Motorcycles:
ZEV T7100, 84V, 60AH, 65+mph; Mods: TNC throttle, windshield, Cycle Analyst , Cell Log , and custom charger
Kymco GT300i - for long rides through the Rocky Mountains
Big EV Grin. :)

wb9k   10 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by wb9k » Sep 15 2013 10:27pm

Sorry to hear about your friend's problems with the pack. I could have been fixed, but it sounds like he's past that now. The DC/DC in that pack underwent a few changes over its history and the final version seems to be very robust. Previous versions had some common failure modes. Other failures are pretty rare. Any idea how many cycles are on the cells?
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

IBScootn   100 W

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by IBScootn » Sep 16 2013 2:18pm

No idea at all how many cycles it took to bring the cells down to 80% of original capacity. But - now that they are at 80%, how many cycles do they likely have left in them before they are, let's say, at 70% capacity?

What is the loss of capacity curve like for these cells? Do they lose the first 10% of capacity quickly, then the second 10% slowly, then the third 10% even slower; or is it the other way around, where the first 10% is very slow to lose, then it progressily loses capacity at a faster rate? Or is capacity loss a linear function?

Thanks,
Motorcycles:
ZEV T7100, 84V, 60AH, 65+mph; Mods: TNC throttle, windshield, Cycle Analyst , Cell Log , and custom charger
Kymco GT300i - for long rides through the Rocky Mountains
Big EV Grin. :)

RedLine19K   100 mW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by RedLine19K » Sep 16 2013 4:54pm

Loss depends on DoD%, C rate and temps.. but it's "linear". Not literally linear meaning actual cells lose .001% capacity for each and every 84% DoD at 32.6deg C, but "linear" in the sense that when looking at the graph, you think "yeah, that's a pretty straight line"
Image
Image
Last edited by RedLine19K on Sep 16 2013 6:09pm, edited 1 time in total.

wb9k   10 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by wb9k » Sep 16 2013 5:36pm

Not quite linear, but close. Losses due to formation of the SEI layer (Solid/Electrolyte Interface) are greatest in the first year, especially at elevated temperatures. The 60 degree curve in your first chart highlights this. The other curves have a similar shape, albeit far less severe. Absent abuse, first year capacity losses should be greatest with a slight decrease in the rate of loss after that. This also holds true for cells in storage, where pretty much all capacity loss is due to the loss of cycleable Li into the SEI layer.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

IBScootn   100 W

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by IBScootn » Sep 17 2013 6:27am

Quite a difference between 1 and 2C. Wonder what the life cycle curve looks like at 9C. I was looking to use them at 24S5P as a separate string but in parallel with a 40AH GBS 24S1P pack. The hope was to reduce sag, but maybe at 9C these A123 would sag as bad as 2.5C GBS cells.
Motorcycles:
ZEV T7100, 84V, 60AH, 65+mph; Mods: TNC throttle, windshield, Cycle Analyst , Cell Log , and custom charger
Kymco GT300i - for long rides through the Rocky Mountains
Big EV Grin. :)

wb9k   10 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by wb9k » Sep 17 2013 7:07am

IBScootn wrote:Quite a difference between 1 and 2C. Wonder what the life cycle curve looks like at 9C. I was looking to use them at 24S5P as a separate string but in parallel with a 40AH GBS 24S1P pack. The hope was to reduce sag, but maybe at 9C these A123 would sag as bad as 2.5C GBS cells.
I highly doubt that, though I admittedly don't know how far a GBS battery sags under that load. The A123 cells will most likely last quite a bit longer under such conditions as well.

Some OEM's are seeing A123 cells as good stand-ins for supercaps, only with some actual capacity. Your idea is not a bad one.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

wb9k   10 kW

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by wb9k » Sep 17 2013 7:12am

IBScootn wrote:Quite a difference between 1 and 2C. Wonder what the life cycle curve looks like at 9C. I was looking to use them at 24S5P as a separate string but in parallel with a 40AH GBS 24S1P pack. The hope was to reduce sag, but maybe at 9C these A123 would sag as bad as 2.5C GBS cells.
The difference between the 1 and 2 C line has more to do with the elevated temp of the 2C test, not the C rate. Not a terribly intuitive chart there. You see why the full specs are dozens of pages long. There are a lot of constallations of conditions to chart, and trying to present too many at once with just a few curves (like is done here) leads to even more confusion than having a dozen charts spelling it all out in clear detail.
dh
2013 Chevy Volt
2009 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM
2008 Prius with Hymotion L5 PCM (passed on to daughter)
2011 Rose Xing Fu 48V 500 Watt commuter scooter (now departed)
1984 Honda Interceptor 48V electric conversion motorcycle
Under construction: 2008 Miles ZX40ST truck with altered DC drivetrain
Departed: 2002 VW Jetta TDI which was run for a time partly on WVO.
Amateur radio station run entirely on solar/battery power.
"You can tell I'm a troublemaker, because I plug in my car."

IBScootn   100 W

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Re: Coming Soon A123 Hymotion Modules for ES and ALL

Post by IBScootn » Sep 17 2013 12:39pm

Any 9-10C data for life cycle count and/or voltage sag?

Thanks
Motorcycles:
ZEV T7100, 84V, 60AH, 65+mph; Mods: TNC throttle, windshield, Cycle Analyst , Cell Log , and custom charger
Kymco GT300i - for long rides through the Rocky Mountains
Big EV Grin. :)

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