Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Dlogic   1 kW

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Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by Dlogic » Dec 13 2013 4:44pm

I´m planning on ordering a spot welding machine for soldering single lipo cells. Does anyone here have any experience with this, or know of a good spot welder?

This was found on ali-express. Don´t know if it´ll suit my needs?

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/POWER-78 ... 51068.html

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by agniusm » Dec 13 2013 5:16pm


Rodney64   1 MW

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by Rodney64 » Dec 13 2013 7:32pm

Chris (Jonescg) made my pack they're made from single cells. He can sell you the boards for 20c and 40c cells.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 75#p831084
Last edited by Rodney64 on Dec 13 2013 7:52pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by jonescg » Dec 13 2013 7:37pm

You only need to spot-weld copper tabs to a cell if it only comes with an aluminium (+) terminal. Hobby LiPo always comes with two copper terminals, so soldering them is not a problem. Just make sure the iron is a big one - at least 80 W.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by yuyuyak » Dec 15 2013 1:00am

I'm building a Konion pack right now, but welding/soldering is a ways off.
I really like the welder shown here: http://www.avdweb.nl/tech-tips/spot-welder.html
I've got most of the parts already. In a couple of months I will have more to tell, if I'm not satisfied I will solder, but I'd rather not.
This is an interesting video of one of your countrymen soldering to Konions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKSV8T5wERo
He's on them QUITE a while with that iron, can't be more than 60 watts I think.
I'd be scared to heat them like that.
There are many opinions about spot welders here on ES, but the truth is there are a lot of variables in the process, which makes it difficult to sift through the advice. So I'm just going to try it and see for myself.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by cwah » Dec 15 2013 6:00pm

agniusm wrote:
I purchased 2 model of these chinese spot welder, and they both failed. The first one on first usage, the second one after 1 week.

Worse thing is that aliexpress gave favour to the seller because I couldn't ship it back. So I have 2 non working spot welder at home :|
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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by schwibsi » Dec 15 2013 6:20pm

You can't weld copper tape, unless you use electrodes made of wolfram, which you're not going to have. You're most likely to use copper electrodes.
Hilumin (nickel alloy) tape is choice, when it comes to welding battery cells.

Forget these chinese spot welders, they won't work.

You can also solder the cells, if the cells are not drift-free. But I wouldn't recommend it, as you're very likely to damage the cells.

You can build a spot welder yourself, but it's only worth doing, if you're making several packs. I wouldn't do it for just a few.
I built one, using 3s16p high power Li-Ion cells, an arduino for controls and 6 1324 mosfets to switch the power.

Works like a charm.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by arkmundi » Dec 15 2013 9:14pm

FYI, I'm currently experimenting with conductive epoxy as an alternative to welding or soldering. Too early to report my results, but if successful, it'll be less expensive and easier to do. I'll post a thread when I've got it down.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by cwah » Dec 15 2013 9:20pm

arkmundi wrote:FYI, I'm currently experimenting with conductive epoxy as an alternative to welding or soldering. Too early to report my results, but if successful, it'll be less expensive and easier to do. I'll post a thread when I've got it down.
my guess is that conductive epoxy only works for low power applications/ebikes
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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by arkmundi » Dec 15 2013 9:35pm

cwah wrote:my guess is that conductive epoxy only works for low power applications/ebikes
Yea, just that, a guess, without any experimental data to work with. I'm doing that, and expect some failure before success. As with all such endeavors, if I did not have confidence in success, I wouldn't try it. But the cost of failure is also very low, so why not give it a try? I can always revert to soldering. There are good conductive epoxy's on the market these days and I'm giving several a try.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by dnmun » Dec 15 2013 9:41pm

if the spot welders are junk and fail on first use how is it that the guy in that video had no problems with his? maybe because he did not know the chinese were incompetent and the hundreds of billions of dollars of stuff they make for us is all that "cheap chinese junk" i read so much about from the bleachers here.

now who is it that makes all these hub motors, and controllers, and batteries, and and....

all those incompetent evil cheap chinese slave laborers. the 500 million people who have worked themselves into a middle class existence from desperate poverty, how many of those smart excellent Europeans made motors and batteries and controllers that anyone could afford? everybody wants a mercedes i am sure. yuk.

now we need to go war with them, they had the nerve to go land a rover on the moon. without passing our white man's competency test first. we need more nuclear carriers cruising off their coast to make sure they don't catch up with the western world, and we certainly don't want them spending all those dollars buying up oil companies and oil fields that are only for us to use first. shame on those cheap chinese for saving 50% of their income when they could be spending it all on more and more junk like we do.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by arkmundi » Dec 15 2013 10:11pm

dnmun wrote:all those incompetent evil cheap chinese slave laborers. the 500 million people who have worked themselves into a middle class existence from desperate poverty, how many of those smart excellent Europeans made motors and batteries and controllers that anyone could afford? everybody wants a mercedes i am sure. yuk.

now we need to go war with them, they had the nerve to go land a rover on the moon. without passing our white man's competency test first. we need more nuclear carriers cruising off their coast to make sure they don't catch up with the western world, and we certainly don't want them spending all those dollars buying up oil companies and oil fields that are only for us to use first. shame on those cheap chinese for saving 50% of their income when they could be spending it all on more and more junk like we do.
The Chinese dragon has been awoken from its slumber, so watch out! We're all cattle in the open field now. Get this: China is graduating 35 times the number of students with advanced degrees than the USofA, by last count. And they are buying up every natural resource on the planet. They practially own Africa now. And what was their reason for going to the moon? You guessed it, geological exploration, looking for natural resources. They plan on having a permanent, settled moon base by 2030. They're in the process of "claiming" and unless the good ol' USofA gets up off its arse, we won't have an equal claim there. If you're under the age of 20, better start learning Chinese.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by dnmun » Dec 16 2013 4:17am

you do not have to learn chinese to interact with chinese engineers. they all speak clear fluent english. people in this country don't even study math, chemistry or physics. just video games and chase each other around with their iphone on facebook and tumbler. i think the most recent we have for a score in math is like #26, so why even worry about it?

we have now tapped the source rock and are using up the natural gas and crude as fast as we can produce it and then when it is gone we can try to buy it from someone else. but there is never gonna be a productive basis for the creation of the means to purchase it then. schools in this country are a joke. it really is a shame. we have the power and insight to see how the world is gonna end up because of the global warming and sea level rise but cannot change it because the greed of everyone here who think they are entitled to use as much energy as they can, since this is a FREE country. just selfish greed. me first forever, the american maxim. kill'em all and take the oil is our approach to the arab world that provides it.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by arkmundi » Dec 16 2013 4:35am

Amen brother! Hallelujah brokers of a pointless future.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by agniusm » Dec 18 2013 2:37pm

This thread went balls as so many here on ES. Pointless arguing over nothing. Anyway, i'd like to thank yuyuyak for sharing arduino diy spot welder. I went to a disposal place and picked up transformer of an old 1450W microwave. I had some heavy duty copper wire from an old forklift that i salvaged some time ago. At the moment i have almost done electrodes and mechanics. I would like to install some kind of independent electromagnet to pull equally on each electrode against the cell surface. Attempt on 4mm nickel strip vaporized it, so there is adequate power, timer will solve the rest.
yuyuyak wrote:I'm building a Konion pack right now, but welding/soldering is a ways off.
I really like the welder shown here: http://www.avdweb.nl/tech-tips/spot-welder.html
I've got most of the parts already. In a couple of months I will have more to tell, if I'm not satisfied

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by grindz145 » Dec 18 2013 2:47pm

120 bucks for that welder is a steal. I bought a similar unit for 300 bucks and it's serving me well. I was using a transformer, but then I just threw a dryer outlet 220 connector (in order to get 220 single phase in the US) and it worked fairly well. Not commercial grade, but not bad for hobbyists.

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by Dlogic » Dec 30 2013 1:48pm

Ok, this machine is a bit more expensive, but it seems to be worth the money.

We´re talking about 1400 € for the bundle.

1. Welding Transformer
2. Adjustable electrode holder.

Check out the video



Next year i will visit the guy that manufactures this machine. If it performs as stated, it will be another tool in my workshop soon.

My bike will then get a custom welded pack out of these cells.

----Sony Konion (US18650VTC4)----

:mrgreen:

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by knighty » Dec 30 2013 2:34pm

I'm a bit late here

but someone on here bought one of those cheap tab welders (on ebay iirc) and it was junk...

I don't care where it's made from, you get what you pay for
(unless you build it yourself)

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by docnjoj » Dec 30 2013 3:17pm

I don't know, knighty, but spending $1800 or so doesn't seem cheap. The video seems to show high quality. I have seen cheap welders for $100 on ebay, but this one looks worth it. Not that I am going to get one soon. :mrgreen:
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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 30 2013 3:46pm

In industry, ultrasonic welders are used for joining pouch cell tabs most commonly, with relatively slow-ish resistive heating welding being sometimes used in conjunction with ultrasonic welding. A123 used a special powder metal laser welding method which had relatively high fall-out (there is good reason that's not the industry standard method).

As far as welding highly conductive foils with a capacitive discharge welder reliably, good luck. The current densities needed to flash copper foils to molten typically will also have such strong magnetic fields the molten material splatters from localized magnetic repulsion. At least that's how my experiences with it went, if you turn the energy dump up enough to really melt the metal, it splatters, if you decrease the energy, it just makes a joint that visually looks like a weld, but you can knock the weld apart with a brush of your pinky.

My favorite method for joining foils is mechanically crimping. When done right, ultra-low resistance, excellent mechanical strength, and the lack of heat/arcing involved make for good quick easy joints that don't require special equipment beyond a crimper for under-floor heating foil connections.
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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by docnjoj » Dec 30 2013 5:15pm

Interesting LFP. that is why oatnets and agnius's clamps seem to work well. Thanks.
otherDoc

edit: Actually oatnet did use a cheap HF crimp welder with cotterpins for his A123 pouches. It think dlogic is trying to just weld nickel tabs onto the little cylinder 18650 cells?
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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 30 2013 6:17pm

I still would have them welder in parelle from the seller and series them myself with a 80 watt iron. Yes like spiningmagnets did.

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by parabellum » Jan 07 2014 10:59am

Maybe a good candidate to rip open and modify it, nice enclosure for that money. :D

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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by Spacey » Jan 07 2014 4:07pm

All the Positive connections on my A123 36v Packs from Victpower had stupidly been soldered. They all came off by just touching them, my solution was to drill 6 holes big enough to pass 14Awg copper rc cable through and wind it through the tab as much as I could. I would then crimp the foil tab and carefully solder lead easy flow solder through the copper cable.

Worked really well, I never put more than 20A through these packs so it will be more than sufficient for that. I can not believe they honestly tried to solder copper cable to aluminium foil doh!!!
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Re: Welding machine for Lipo Cells

Post by agniusm » Jan 08 2014 2:39pm

Dont know about you guys but i like this machine:

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