Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by speedmd » Aug 03 2021 6:13am

Chalo wrote:
Aug 03 2021 2:08am
speedmd wrote:
Aug 02 2021 8:52pm
I am not finding claimed efficiency nor any hydrogen production.
https://www.alexhsain.org/blog/ironair

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120187918A1/en
Efficiency. An iron-air battery has an open circuit cell voltage of about 1.28V and a theoretical energy density of 764 Wh/kg. While the current densities are at least an order of magnitude higher than would be used for discharge of batteries for grid-scale electrical storage, there is a 0.5V difference between the charge and discharge voltages. This difference in charge/discharge voltages arises mainly from the poor performance of the air electrode. This voltage loss contributes significantly to the low round-trip efficiency of 50% of current iron-air batteries, 20% loss of capacity in 14 days, and 10% loss of faradic charge efficiency.
I think the "less than 65%" charge efficiency I found was in an online discussion of iron air batteries, but actually referred to iron-nickel batteries. It looks like iron-air is even worse in that regard.
The ten year old link states up to 80% efficiency as a possibility. Nothing in this current configuration literature on hydrogen production.
Regardless, they are some two years away (claimed) from having some production samples. I expect a wholesale shit storm for them if they come up with something useful.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Aug 03 2021 8:40am

Norway ??..
Did you forget to use the :lol: imoji ?
They have less than 3 GW of wind installed and effectively no solar.
90+% of their generation is hydro.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Aug 03 2021 9:12am

Something doesnt add up with these figures.
With a possible 764 W/kg , a “washing m/c sized” cell of mostly iron and water must weigh near 1000 kg, could have a capacity of over 500 kW.... so just 2 “washing m/cs” for 1 MW ???
But lets assume the actual Wh/kg is only 50, ....but you would still only need 20 of those units for a MW capacity.
That doesnt seem to equate with the stated acre of area required per MW ?
I estimate you could put 5000 washing machines on an acre,.. which would suggest that each one has a capacity of 200 W.
And if the weight is around 1000kg, then the effective energy density is only 0.20 W/kg. :shock: WTF ?
What am i missing ?
.. maybe their 1 MW/ acre is a typo ?......should it be 1 GW/ acre,..or 100MW/ acre ?
Using their 1MW/acre, a typical 20 kW home battery would need 80 sq mts,... the size of a 4 car garage ! :shock: :lol:
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 03 2021 10:31pm

I am going to the BATTERY SHOW 2021 in September. ( It is like the Interbike but for Battery technologies!!)

It will be interesting to see what's new! I will try to post some great find here :wink:

https://www.thebatteryshow.com/en/home.html
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Aug 04 2021 9:33am

The confusion over the Formenergy Iron.Air battery gets worse...
In the video on their site, they clearly state that each “washing m/c” sized unit contains up to 20 cells.
And.. each of those cells can contain as much energy as a GM Volt battery pack (16kWh ?)
So a single “washing m/c “ could have 320kWh capacity ?..
Great, that would be impressive,....but why the the statement that an acre of land is needed per kWh ? :?:
Can Anyone shed a light on this ?
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by speedmd » Aug 04 2021 10:29am

Can Anyone shed a light on this ?
We were hoping you would! :lol:

All looks like a bunch or PR hype to me. Virtually no technical details and broad unspecific claims. But if they can produce a low cost mass storage battery with good cycle life and safety, it is worth keeping a eye on.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by e-beach » Aug 04 2021 11:00am

Doctorbass wrote:
Aug 03 2021 10:31pm
..... I will try to post some great find here :wink: ....
Good luck with it! However, every time I have been to those kinds of shows, like NAMM, once the representative of the company that has piqued my interest finds out I am not placing an order for 10,000 units, they always stop talking to me. :oops:

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by nicobie » Aug 04 2021 1:57pm

I would go to that show if it was closer and didn't cost $800 for a one day pass to a 3 day event.
Ask for it by name.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 04 2021 9:12pm

Doctorbass wrote:
Aug 03 2021 10:31pm
I am going to the BATTERY SHOW 2021 in September. ( It is like the Interbike but for Battery technologies!!)

It will be interesting to see what's new! I will try to post some great find here :wink:

https://www.thebatteryshow.com/en/home.html
Erika and I attend every year they host it, I will see you there Doc!
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by neptronix » Aug 21 2021 4:23pm

Doctorbass wrote:
Aug 03 2021 10:31pm
I am going to the BATTERY SHOW 2021 in September. ( It is like the Interbike but for Battery technologies!!)

It will be interesting to see what's new! I will try to post some great find here :wink:

https://www.thebatteryshow.com/en/home.html
Cool :bigthumb:
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by neptronix » Aug 21 2021 4:26pm

HIU researchers develop extremely high energy density lithium-metal cell with good stability
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... 1-hiu.html
Researchers at the Helmholtz Institute Ulm (HIU), founded by the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT) in cooperation with the University of Ulm, have developed a new lithium-metal battery that offers extremely high energy density of 560 Wh/kg—based on the total weight of the active materials—with remarkably good stability.
Long lasting rechargable lithium metal batteries now made possible through a change in solvent is how i read this.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by speedmd » Aug 22 2021 7:32am

Ionic ("charged") liquid electrolyte vs a partially ionic polymer slurry. Looks like much the same concept of ionizing oils and additives which have had some of the big improvements in motor oils the past decade. This may be significant if it proves out to be as durable and safe as claimed.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Aug 26 2021 2:04am

Solid state cells will be going commercial in Japan this autumn. !
....but probably not in an EV !
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by TheBeastie » Aug 26 2021 5:01am

Here is some alternative "storable portable energy porn" in the form of Hydrogren power-pack technology.
HyPoint Partners With Piasecki Aircraft To Deliver eVTOL Hydrogen Fuel Cell System
https://www.h2-view.com/story/first-gli ... elicopter/#/
to develop five 650kW hydrogen fuel cell systems that will boast twice the specific power of existing hydrogen fuel cell systems.

Powering a Piasecki eVTOL PA-890 Compound Helicopter, the systems will also offer electric vertical take-off and landing (eVTOL) manufacturers four times the energy density of existing lithium-ion batteries and a 50% reduction in direct operating costs relative to turbine-powered rotorcraft.

https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/24/hypoi ... or-evtols/
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by neptronix » Aug 27 2021 10:53am

Meh, hydrogen.. still the least efficient, most expensive, and most carbon intensive of the alternatives. I can't see why there is any interest in it.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by neptronix » Aug 27 2021 10:56am

That's a nice find, hillhater.

I came up on this today:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... -sion.html
Lithium-metal rechargeable battery developer Sion Power will introduce its Licerion rechargeable battery for electric vehicles at The Battery Show North America in Novi, Michigan in September.

The 17 Ah Licerion Electric Vehicle (EV) cell offers more than 400 Wh/kg and 810 Wh/L in a large-format pouch cell. (Earlier post.) The company has specifically designed Licerion-EV for next-generation electric vehicle applications, focusing on high energy density, increased cycle life, safety, and fast charging capability.

In independent testing, 6 Ah Licerion-EV cells reached more than 800 cycles, demonstrated fast charge capability (80% of charge in 15 minutes), excellent power capability, and safety.

Sion Power says that it has successfully overcome the issues that dogged historical lithium metal chemistries—e.g., dendrification, resistive by-products—by developing a multi-faceted approach to protecting the lithium metal anode.
This company seems to be a step ahead of northvolt in reaching production.


I expect that with the release of these denser batteries, there will be a huge influx of interest in electric vehicles again. Especially in the DIY world.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by stan.distortion » Aug 27 2021 11:05am

neptronix wrote:
Aug 27 2021 10:53am
Meh, hydrogen.. still the least efficient, most expensive, and most carbon intensive of the alternatives. I can't see why there is any interest in it.
Cheap and easy when generated by electrolyses. Even works out far cheaper for power transmission now the damn stuff leaking out through solid materials is pretty much sorted out, underground pipes cost a lot less than overhead power cables. Absolutely filthy and disgusting process when extracted from hydrocarbons though and that's where the majority comes from.

We had a major boom in development of fuel cells with carbon nanotubes instead of platinum some years back, guessing that's where this came from and hydrogen is a seriously big deal in the eastern world, potentially a replacement for most domestic services, electricity, water and gas lines and has even been seriously considered for replacing or running in parallel with monetary economies.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by neptronix » Aug 27 2021 12:50pm

The true issue with hydrogen is that the electrolysis uses a lot of power, then you have to spend a lot of power compressing it into a tank. Then you put it through a fuel cell with ~60% efficiency or an ICE with ~30% efficiency.

That is too many steps... and too many losses along the way.

The resulting fuel is more expensive than gasoline ( on a per kw-hr basis ) when extracted from hydrocarbons. 2-3 times more expensive when generated from renewable sources.

On the other hand, if you have an industrial waste stream from manufacturing or petroleum extraction/refining, then you skip one of these expensive conversions, and for you, the cost of hydrogen then becomes significantly cheaper than gasoline.

I don't see it as a mainstream thing unless there are some serious breakthroughs.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 27 2021 12:58pm

One of the methods for powering a fuel cell was to strip H2 off of methanol, which is typically made from methane.

Of course it requires an on-board reformer, and current designs use a lot of heat to operate. There is also work going on developing catalysts to lower the temps and make the reforming process better.

I'm not saying its a good idea. But some big players are still improving this.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by stan.distortion » Aug 27 2021 4:54pm

neptronix wrote:
Aug 27 2021 12:50pm
The true issue with hydrogen is that the electrolysis uses a lot of power, then you have to spend a lot of power compressing it into a tank.
....
Actually, you don't. Electrolysis can generate pressure too, the splitting and compressing stages can be the same process. Quite efficient too, more so than a separate compression stage but I'm not sure about separating hydrogen and oxygen, usually it's screened and I'd imagine pressure could assist that but never looked into it much. Didn't play around with it much beyond that, the mere thought of browns gas at high pressure is enough to cause brown trousers ;)

Like you say, as far as vehicles go the process is more or less a kludge to get a few more years out of infernal combustion engines and there's no fxing way anyone with any sense would put themselves anywhere near a 500,000psi hydrogen tank so even with major improvements mobile applications are a dead-end imo. Not so sure about stationary though, hydrogen has a lot of potential there imo.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Aug 27 2021 6:21pm

stan.distortion wrote:
Aug 27 2021 4:54pm
neptronix wrote:
Aug 27 2021 12:50pm
The true issue with hydrogen is that the electrolysis uses a lot of power, then you have to spend a lot of power compressing it into a tank.
....
Actually, you don't. Electrolysis can generate pressure too, the splitting and compressing stages can be the same process. Quite efficient too, more so than a separate compression stage but I'm not sure about separating hydrogen and oxygen, usually it's screened and I'd imagine pressure could assist that but never looked into it much. Didn't play around with it much beyond that, the mere thought of browns gas at high pressure is enough to cause brown trousers ;)

Like you say, as far as vehicles go the process is more or less a kludge to get a few more years out of infernal combustion engines and there's no fxing way anyone with any sense would put themselves anywhere near a 500,000psi hydrogen tank so even with major improvements mobile applications are a dead-end imo. Not so sure about stationary though, hydrogen has a lot of potential there imo.
Stan, do you have a link to a reputable source for that “self pressurising” Hydrogen production ?
..because there is a line of industry investors waiting to give me money for that information ! :roll:
10,000 psi (700bar) seems to be the industry standard for practical storage and transport....and even at that , it is still not realistic in most situations.
500,000 psi storage would be convenient....but who is using that ??
PS, did you notice this..
https://plasmakinetics.com/
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by e-beach » Aug 27 2021 8:21pm

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 27 2021 6:21pm

..Stan, do you have a link to a reputable source for that “self pressurising” Hydrogen production ?
..because there is a line of industry investors waiting to give me money for that information ! :roll:
.......
Actually Stan is correct to a degree. Things like HHO generators only use the pressure of electrolysis to push the gas'. Pressuring to store in a tank takes a pump system.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Aug 27 2021 9:01pm

Actually Stan is correct to a degree. Things like HHO generators only use the pressure of electrolysis to push the gas'. Pressuring to store in a tank takes a pump system
So, as Nep’ was talking about storage in a tank,.....stan is not correct ?
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by ZeroEm » Aug 27 2021 11:44pm

Hydrogen Storage - Basics

Was going to mention storing hydrogen in solids. It has been a while so that link says it all.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by stan.distortion » Aug 28 2021 4:56am

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 27 2021 6:21pm
....
Stan, do you have a link to a reputable source for that “self pressurising” Hydrogen production ?
..because there is a line of industry investors waiting to give me money for that information ! :roll:
10,000 psi (700bar) seems to be the industry standard for practical storage and transport....and even at that , it is still not realistic in most situations.
500,000 psi storage would be convenient....but who is using that ??
PS, did you notice this..
https://plasmakinetics.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroly ... h-pressure

Pressure from electrolysis is one of those uncommon common knowledge things, I'd done loads of digging into using hydrogen as storage and never came across it once but found any amount of info on it with just a search for "electrolysis under pressure". No idea why it's rarely mentioned, probably well known in industry but maybe most diyers have enough sense not to try it or suggest it to others, idk :/

Iirc there's no upper limit to the potential pressure, often wondered if it would be possible to have combined liquid hydrogen and oxygen at the crazy-high end and if it could be somehow fixed in that state. Fairly sure we're missing something huge and obvious like that with water, the thing essential for all life on the planet just coincidentally being a perfect combustor... I'm not religious but that sounds like god having a laugh to me.

500,000 psi was the working pressure being tested with composite tanks intended for vehicles the last time I checked but that was several years ago, wouldn't be surprised if some fekin genious has pushed it over a million by now. I just hope they're doing it a long way from built up areas and the fearmongering headlines will be spectacular if they ever try to market vehicles with them, 1000 foot high fireballs will be sure to put the punters off.
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