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Re: Saft LiIon-SouthernCaliforniaEdison Tests OK at 180k miles

Post by RoughRider » Jun 05 2009 1:00am

i read about LiNiO2...it can provide lots of power, but it is the unsafest chemestry of all Li-chemestrys... :?

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Re: Saft LiIon-SouthernCaliforniaEdison Tests OK at 180k miles

Post by swbluto » Jun 05 2009 1:18am

Surely improvements have been made to safety or DOT wouldn't be involved in funding the research?

Remember, gasoline is one of most dangerous derivatives of petroleum! :wink:

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Re: Saft LiIon-SouthernCaliforniaEdison Tests OK at 180k miles

Post by dogman dan » Jun 05 2009 5:32am

So did the delivery van on the rollers in the lab ever get loaded down, and then driven up the hills on a hot day by a guy that makes minimum wage? That could shorten lifespan of a battery just a little. Of course it all has to start in the lab, but don't try to tell me you can street the thing and get the same results. with the cost of a car size pack in the $30,000 range they will have to go very far to be cheaper than a $4,000 ICE engine.

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Re: Saft LiIon-SouthernCaliforniaEdison Tests OK at 180k miles

Post by liveforphysics » Jun 05 2009 6:32am

The graph in the discharge test on the .PDF would indicate an Ri of 1.66mOhm, or ~10mOhm/Ahr.

That's twice as good as premium RC LiPo.

I'm very interested.

The RC crowd doesn't care about saftey of batteries, only performance and lightweight. This makes me really wonder why I've never seen this used in RC projects. People pay $10,000 for a mini-turbine engine for RC helicopters. I'm sure somebody would pay a few hundred bucks a cell to have an advantage. I get a hunch this technology isn't actually available.
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Re: Saft LiIon-SouthernCaliforniaEdison Tests OK at 180k miles

Post by liveforphysics » Jun 05 2009 6:35am

dogman- With an Ri of 10mOhm's per Ah, you could do terrible terrible things to a battery made from them, and it wouldn't even get warm. Outside of over charge or over discharge, I'm not sure you could even damage a cell with that low of Ri. You could definately cook some motors though :)
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New Lithium-Air Battery Has Huge Storage Capacity

Post by MitchJi » Jul 30 2009 2:25am

Hi,

http://gas2.org/2009/07/28/new-lithium- ... -capacity/

Image
A team of Japanese scientists have developed a new type of lithium-air battery cell with an ultra-large capacity, and say that it holds great potential for the next-generation of electric cars.

Researchers at the country’s National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST) predict that at a filling station, the driver of a vehicle equipped with the new battery could make use of a revolutionary new cassette refill system, and then continue driving without waiting for batteries to be recharged.

Although Lithium-air batteries have been singled out as having great potential as future large-capacity batteries they have been plagued by a persistent problem. A solid reaction product (Li2O or Li2O2), which is not soluble in organic electrolyte, clogs on the air electrode (cathode) during the discharge process. If the air electrode becomes fully clogged, oxygen from the atmosphere can no longer be introduced to the system.

To remedy this, the team used an organic electrolyte on the anode (metallic lithium) side and an aqueous electrolyte on the cathode (air) side. The two electrolytes are separated by a solid state electrolyte (lithium super-ion conductor glass film - LISICON) so that the two electrolytic solutions do not mix. As a result, only lithium ions pass through the solid electrolyte, and the battery reactions proceed smoothly. At the cathode, the reaction product in the discharge process is water-soluble and no solid substances are produced. Continuous discharging of 50,000 mAh/g (per unit mass of the carbon, catalyst and binder) has been experimentally confirmed.
Best Wishes!

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Re: New Lithium-Air Battery Has Huge Storage Capacity

Post by mwkeefer » Aug 28 2009 1:48pm

Wow!

Where do I order 2 15S packs (hot swappable) from?

-Mike

Seriously thought... this could be very nice for all EVs, eBikes included = )_
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Re: New Lithium-Air Battery Has Huge Storage Capacity

Post by monster » Aug 29 2009 6:26pm

but we would all need to carry purified compressed air with us.

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Re: New Lithium-Air Battery Has Huge Storage Capacity

Post by swbluto » Aug 29 2009 7:38pm

MitchJi wrote: Continuous discharging of 50,000 mAh/g (per unit mass of the carbon, catalyst and binder) has been experimentally confirmed.
What's the wH per gram? Is it lithium's usual 3-4 volts, and so that's 150-200 wH/g?

If so, dang. Are you sure that's not 150-200 wH/kg? Wait, lipoly is 130-200 wh/kg as wikipedia suggests so that wouldn't make sense, but yet a thousand-fold increase doesn't make sense either - that just seems to be too extreme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fueled ... on_battery states a ten-fold increase.

What I'm curious about, though, is the power density. I've heard that lithium air has a pretty poor power density - Might be OK for energy sipping laptops, but it doesn't yet seem practical for EVs. If it's cheap and your car has a lot if it, it might be suitable for capacity and some other form of lithium would be suitable for that main current to get that good acceleration and speed.

Anyways, with this and silicon nanowires (And with fringe technologies like EESTOR), it seems likely that there's going to be some pretty dramatic improvements within the next decade with energy storage.

I think I found a first-source or very close second source or review at http://www.aist.go.jp/aist_e/latest_res ... 90727.html.

Here's where I found a reference to the actual current:
The newly developed lithium-air cell with alkaline aqueous electrolyte gel has a discharging capacity of approximately 9000 mAh/g when it is discharged in the air at a discharge rate of 0.1 A/g.
I don't know what the output voltage is (It's probably in the paper somewhere), but even if it's 1 volt, that's a power density of .1 watt/g or 100 watts/kg. With an output voltage of 3, that goes upto 300 watts/kg. That seems like its in the neighborhood of ping's gravimetric power density. If the volumetric power density goes up at least 10x, then that would certainly be a usable LEV power density. I think I'll read through the paper to see what relevant values I can get.

Some clarifications of the research.

They tested 50 Ah/g at .1A / g with a "20 day" rate with an aqueous solution (Liquid solution) as opposed to a gel. Do thenumbers add up? 500 hours = 20.8333 days. Sure does. The output voltage averaged at 2.9 volts. That corresponds to ~150 Wh/g which is remarkable - that's like 15,000 Wh/kg. The gel solution got 9 Ah/g, which corresponds to 27 Wh/g which is still pretty amazing. 2700 Wh/kg? I assume the average output voltage was 2.9 volts in that case with .1A/g. Gasoline's energy density is around 12,000 Wh/kg and in the typical petrol car, the "usable energy" density is more like 2000-3000 Wh/kg. This is lithium with a usable specific energy density comparable to or exceeding gasoline.


The gravimetric power density was 2.9 volts * .1A / g = .29 watts/gr. That's 290 watts/kg, which is a little better than ping's gravimetric power density. It looks like 3C or 4C batteries in relation to weight? More exactly, ping rates his batteries at about 1000 watts/5.5 kg or 180 watts/kg and 2C. 290/190 = 1.53 times the power density ~= 3C.

Now, for volumetric power and energy density...

I couldn't find any references to volume. Any educated guesses? If the battery is essentially filled with air... :wink:

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Re: New Lithium-Air Battery Has Huge Storage Capacity

Post by MitchJi » Aug 30 2009 12:08am

Hi SW,
swbluto wrote: This is lithium with a usable specific energy density comparable to or exceeding gasoline.

I couldn't find any references to volume. Any educated guesses? If the battery is essentially filled with air... :wink:
The main reason the energy density is so high is that the battery uses the outside air for the reaction rather than containing/carrying all the required chemicals.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


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Re: New Lithium-Air Battery Has Huge Storage Capacity

Post by Miles » Aug 30 2009 12:56am

Ref: http://www.batteriesdigest.com/lithium_air.htm (scroll down to 2nd article)

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Re: New Lithium-Air Battery Has Huge Storage Capacity

Post by monster » Sep 02 2009 5:59am

pollution in the air would kill this battery in under 10 cycles. remember lithium reacts with moisture.

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Re: New Lithium-Air Battery Has Huge Storage Capacity

Post by Robomaniac » Oct 02 2009 8:58am

Image

Read the article on engadget that linked to this link below:
http://www.smartertechnology.com/c/a/Te ... tric-Cars/

http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/02/ibm- ... -miles-or/



Look at 1:52 to see that picture above.

I can't wait to see consumer battery!

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Re: New Lithium-Air Battery Has Huge Storage Capacity

Post by spinningmagnets » Oct 02 2009 12:36pm

IF...this new technology turns out to be a true advance, the details can be worked out. Passive (non-electrical-drawing) humidity absorption is easily added. If they are bulky, but surprisingly light, they could be mounted inside a fairing system (front or rear), as their low weight would not upset a reasonable weight balance.

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battery of the futur?

Post by lifepo4ever » Oct 10 2009 8:19pm

the futur of electric vehicule with the lithium titanate here a link of the already exist battery:

http://www.altairnano.com/profiles/inve ... 0&ID=10701


http://www.b2i.cc/Document/546/50Ah_Dat ... 012209.pdf


I wish I had a battery like that running my motocycle and car .

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Re: battery of the futur?

Post by def215 » Oct 10 2009 9:45pm

that is interesting. i wonder why we dont see them yet in everyday applications,unless they are and we dont see them yet. they also say it is the safest lithium based battery, yet the electrolyte in it is flammable which i find a little sketchy in the event of a puncture or in the case of the battery pack heats up during use.
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Re: battery of the futur?

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 10 2009 10:09pm

These guys have been out for like 5 years now, and I've yet to see anything in the marketing info change over the last 5 years.

The batteries do work though, and they have some NEDRA records to prove it.

Expensive. Stagnant.
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Re: battery of the futur?

Post by lifepo4ever » Oct 11 2009 12:50pm

the reason why they don't sell them right now , the oil company want to sell more oil and after there no more oil these company will buy the battery technology and sold the electricity to recharge it !!!

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Saft develops Super-PhosphateTM technology

Post by Lock » Nov 03 2009 4:23am

"Saft designed and developed the VL 10V Fe Super-Phosphate™ cell capable of producing continuous power of 7 kW/kg, making it the world’s highest power lithium iron phosphate cell."
http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Uploa ... -09_en.pdf

http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_La ... fault.aspx
SAFT_VLFe.jpg
SAFT_VLFe.jpg (13.72 KiB) Viewed 3156 times
VL 10V Fe
10 Ah
W/kg 5000 (2 second pulse / 2.5 V)
Wh/kg 54
Maximum discharge @ cont./25°C 1500A

6.8 in.
1.85 in.
1.3 lbs.

tks
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Re: Saft develops Super-PhosphateTM technology

Post by monster » Nov 03 2009 6:09am

nice another competitor for A123

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Re: Saft develops Super-PhosphateTM technology

Post by Ypedal » Nov 03 2009 8:30am

can you say " Looking for investors " .. unless you are selling some mass market product, they likely don't want to hear from you.. grrrr..
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Re: Saft develops Super-PhosphateTM technology

Post by swbluto » Nov 03 2009 8:53am

And, finally, LiFePO4 sees some significant advances akin to those with LiPo. I just hope the second-rate market starts to pick up accordingly so we can see Hobby-City prices on high power LiFePO4.

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1.2V 10,000mah rechargeable NiMH used in Steorn Orbo

Post by myzter » Dec 16 2009 1:53am

Is any members watching Steorn these days ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JikYfmE ... 90&index=9


apparently an 1.2V 10,000mah Nimh battery cell is used.
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Re: 1.2V 10,000mah rechargeable NiMH used in Steorn Orbo

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 16 2009 7:15am

This company makes zero friction passive magnet bearings.

The device is encapsulated in clear materials easily thick enough to be holding a hard vaccuum inside.

The battery has 12whr's and they plan to show it running for 6 weeks...

2whr's a week= a power draw of 11.9mW


A typical quartz movement watch as a 1.5v button cell with ~40mAh. Many can run for 3+ years on this 0.06whr of energy. That is a power use rate of .00228mw to start and stop a second hand once a second in an enviroment with air, and with bearings that have friction.

4,250 times the power to spin a balanced freewheel on magnetic bearings which may be in a vaccuum. Once at operating speed, the mass of the flywheel makes no difference if it is running on magnetic bearings.

If it really is on magnetic bearings in a vaccuum, and getting 24-7 direct lighting, they could drop the motor/battery part of the setup and do a 90/45deg sawtooth micro pattern texture on the surface of the flywheel, surfacing the 90deg sides dark, the 45deg sides reflective, and make sure the illumination on the object is more from 1 side than the other, and the object would stay spinning as a solar motor. ;)
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Re: Toshiba has quadrupled the output density of its SCiB

Post by swbluto » Feb 20 2010 7:09pm

Does anyone know what chemistry this consists of? It seems to be pretty mysterious. Does it sound like Lithium titanate?

Oh wait, it appears wikipedia thinks so.

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