Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Re: VERY EXTREME HIGH POWER li-ion battery for HEV

Post by zzoing » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:42 pm

Perhaps we make a battery-lottery... we wager 20 dollars into a winning-fund, to guess the time and day when someone on E.S. buys and tests an 18650 with more than 4000mah, or a 21700 with more than 6000mah, or someone buys a battery with higher density than that. I'm betting my $20 that we someone will buy that on 20th june 2020. 3800 will come in end of 2018. even in 2019 if they have 4000mAh cells, they will only put out 3950.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by crazymanc » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:16 am

The thing is the standard li-ion tech of today will keep improving pretty much how it already has been doing.

If one of the new emergent technologies should actually do what they've said they could, then we could be looking at 7000-10000mAh 18650s...once the tech is secured that could happen almost over night. It would certainly be game changing.

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Re: VERY EXTREME HIGH POWER li-ion battery for HEV

Post by zzoing » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:59 am

It would be very cool. 3D printing has managed that kind of leap from printing in 4 hours to printing in 15 minutes (Carbon3D printers cost 100k a year to rent!).

Most technologies do seem to follow a linear increment: LED's LCD's SSD's SD cards Silicon and ICE's, solar panels and batteries, have all for the moment printed revolutionary articles every month for the last 20 years... If there was a 5000ah battery then they wouldnt need an electrolyte and they output would be about 1c for a while, and they can have cars that include both long range and performance chemistries in the same car, 10c lipo is going to be beating those other technologies perhaps until 2050 because it's so performant. I want a fuel cell lipo hybrid bike with 2 pints of whisky in it:) they are two techs that are going in a linear graph at the moment, since 1992 they have gone straight.

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Re: VERY EXTREME HIGH POWER li-ion battery for HEV

Post by parabellum » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:01 pm

zzoing wrote:
Most technologies do seem to follow a linear increment
Really? What do you mean exactly?
Usually technologies follow geometric progression curve until they get obsolete over night and get replaced by something else.

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Re: VERY EXTREME HIGH POWER li-ion battery for HEV

Post by zzoing » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:26 am

You are right it's geometric, it only appears linear on the graphs.

18650 is 1000 mAh every 10 years:
1992= 1Ah.
2002= 2
2012= 3
2017= 3.5
2027= 4.5Ah

solar cells have 7% efficiency every 10 years

LED's have 10 lm/w every year

silicon lithography size has 0.85^2 every year

A good graph of batteries would be equivalent to this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... encies.png

http://www.technology.matthey.com/wp-co ... n15-f1.jpg

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:36 am

So the rate of capacity improvement is slowing...
1992-2002.. 100%..10%\yr
2002-2012....50%...5%\yr
2012- 2017...17%...3.4%\yr
2017- 2027...28%....2.8%\yr
We are going to need a technology change !
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Re: VERY EXTREME HIGH POWER li-ion battery for HEV

Post by liveforphysics » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:12 pm

zzoing wrote:Perhaps we make a battery-lottery... we wager 20 dollars into a winning-fund, to guess the time and day when someone on E.S. buys and tests an 18650 with more than 4000mah, or a 21700 with more than 6000mah, or someone buys a battery with higher density than that. I'm betting my $20 that we someone will buy that on 20th june 2020. 3800 will come in end of 2018. even in 2019 if they have 4000mAh cells, they will only put out 3950.
4Ah 18650s that you can really discharge 4Ah from existed at least 2 years ago from my first experience with them, but are low C rate (<1C).

The amazing improvements in the last couple years for can cells has been getting the cell impedance down to EV useful levels (like 3C continous 3.5Ah cells).
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by LockH » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:39 pm

LG Chemicals and Samsung SDI Decide to Use Their Plants in China to Produce Batteries for Non-Chinese Automotive Manufacturers:
http://english.etnews.com/20170922200001

Starts:
LG Chemicals and Samsung SDI’s batter plants in China that stopped operating due to retaliation from Chinese Government regarding THAAD (Terminal High Altitude Area Defense) will be converted into center for foreign supplies. Although they were worried about how they were going to use production facilities due to sudden sanctions from Chinese Government since end of last year, they have found a new way out as number of demands for electric vehicles has risen throughout the world.
Samsung SDI’s plant in Xian and LG Chemicals’ plant in Nanjing have become active again by supplying batteries for BMW and Hyundai Motor Company and Kia Motors respectively.
According to electric vehicle and battery industries, LG Chemicals converted its plant in Nanjing as a battery production base for Hyundai Motor Company’s ‘IONIE Electric’ and an electric SUV called ‘KONA’ and Kia Motors’ ‘Niro’. Samsung SDI’ plant in Xian will be in charge of producing batteries for BMW’s ‘i3’. They have taken these alternative measures as their suppliers, which are about 20 Chinese automotive manufacturers, were cut off from them.
Hmm.... Sure hope markets aren't now flooded with cheaper batteries... [Cough Cough] :mrgreen:
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:11 am

Return of the Supercapacitor Battery ?..
He makes it sound viable ?
http://www.kilowattlabs.com/about-us.html
https://youtu.be/3K8JIC-ov_Y

And this..
https://vimeo.com/152428341
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by crazymanc » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:13 am

With an energy density better than 115Wh/kg.

The decent 18650s of today are at 200+ Wh/kg.

115 is certainly a very impressive figure for a completely chemical free solution. Not great for bikes or cars in a completely practical sense but it's a great step in the right direction. Of course this depends largely on its volumetric energy density which is not mentioned.

Price will determine practically for other applications.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by speedmd » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:35 am

They do have some advantages as in being able to suck up huge regen loads in a hurry. Would think a mix would be something to look at on stuff like buses, garbage, and mail trucks that are stopping all the time.
Last edited by speedmd on Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by crazymanc » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:13 pm

That makes me wonder what the current hybrid busses I see around town have in them now. I always assumed that the onboard storage could soak everything that the regen could kick out but maybe not...if not then for sure that's a brilliant application for them.

The same is true for an all electric bus. It might only have 30 miles of electric range but if it could charge in 60 seconds periodically it'd be perfectly feasible.


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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Punx0r » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:49 am

Interesting
The lab combined the anode with a sulfurized-carbon cathode to make full batteries for testing. The batteries showed a high-power density of 1,322 watts per kilogram and high-energy density of 943 watt-hours per kilogram.

"While the capacity between the former and this new battery is similar, approaching the theoretical limit of lithium metal, the new asphalt-derived carbon can take up more lithium metal per unit area, and it is much simpler and cheaper to make," he said. "There is no chemical vapor deposition step, no e-beam deposition step and no need to grow nanotubes from graphene, so manufacturing is greatly simplified."

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by crazymanc » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:53 am

943 watt hours per kg...that's 4-5 times current 18650s...

All these emerging battery techs, something needs to make it from the laboratory to everyday life.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:59 pm

crazymanc wrote:.......something needs to make it from the laboratory to everyday life.
It already has......the White Rat ! :lol:
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by chessir » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:58 pm

This Just In---https://www.google.com/url?q=https://ww ... LErTxpADIV

To be commercialized in 2019 Toshiba Scib - Prismatic
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by spinningmagnets » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:03 pm

Japanese electronics giant Toshiba unveiled a new battery that they developed using a new “titanium niobium oxide” anode material.

The company claims the new battery, which is aimed at the automotive market, can enable 200 miles (320 km) of range on an electric car with just 6 minutes of charging. Its next-generation li-ion battery is the latest iteration of their ‘SCiB’ batteries launched back in 2008...
...They have a 50Ah prototype (pictured above) and they say it maintains over 90% of its initial capacity after being put through 5,000 charge/discharge cycles...
https://electrek.co/2017/10/04/toshiba- ... -charging/

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Pajda » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:32 pm

This announced Toshiba SCiB new cell sample with 50Ah capacity and volumetric density of about 360 Wh/l seems to me finally usable for BEVs if they can keep other parameters of the current technology like 30 000cycles at 100% DoD and 10C fast charging = 6 min to 80% capacity.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:12 pm

^^^^^ ..and at a realistic cost ! :wink:
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by neptronix » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:27 pm

I saw that today and it got me pretty excited because they had actually produced a good set of information..
Lack of dendrite formation is huge..

Lots of big generational leaps on the horizon.. at least a few should pan out!
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Solarsail » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:32 pm

Pajda wrote:This announced Toshiba SCiB new cell sample with 50Ah capacity and volumetric density of about 360 Wh/l seems to me finally usable for BEVs if they can keep other parameters of the current technology like 30 000cycles at 100% DoD and 10C fast charging = 6 min to 80% capacity.
Sorry to disappoint. But 360 Wh/L is so low that few automakers will be inclined to use this. There is no indication of the energy capacity of this technology, in the article. Makes me think that the energy capacity is about half of today's batteries.

18650 by Panasonic, volumetric energy density = 630 Wh/L
Gravimetric energy density = 263 Wh/kg

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Solarsail » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:38 pm

neptronix wrote:
I saw that today and it got me pretty excited because they had actually produced a good set of information..
Lack of dendrite formation is huge..

Lots of big generational leaps on the horizon.. at least a few should pan out!
Most important measure is Wh/kg (or kg/kWh), which the press release omits, and makes me suspect that it is not very good.

The Wh/L of 360 is almost half of commercial batteries today (of 630 Wh/L). So it makes me suspect that their energy density is low.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:07 pm

first generation LiTitinate (SCIB) cells were used by several manufacturers in bikes, cars (honda, Mitsubishi) and even buses (Protera).
these new gen versions are much better, so should find a similar acceptability.
their main advantage is fast recharge and huge cycle life with near zero loss of capacity.
they wont suit for an aircraft, but a Taxi or bus will benifit from those attributes.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by speedmd » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:09 pm

From the science daily pc on asphalt adder. This looks to be bigger news.
" The lab combined the anode with a sulfurized-carbon cathode to make full batteries for testing. The batteries showed a high-power density of 1,322 watts per kilogram and high-energy density of 943 watt-hours per kilogram."

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