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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 05, 2017 10:59 pm
by LockH
Suspect "Lack of dendrite formation is huge"... is huge... :)

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 06, 2017 12:36 am
by Hillhater
pity they didnt state the Wh/L....but if i assume its similar to current LiCo cells, then that 943 Wh/kg would give approx 50 Wh in a 18650 size cell...or 4 times the current best , meaning about 10-12 Ah per cell ( if the voltage remains the same ?)
BUT.. 1322W/kg "best" power , would imply a output of less than 2C :| :cry:
Ah well, early days i guess !

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 06, 2017 9:14 am
by Pajda
Solarsail wrote:
Pajda wrote:This announced Toshiba SCiB new cell sample with 50Ah capacity and volumetric density of about 360 Wh/l seems to me finally usable for BEVs if they can keep other parameters of the current technology like 30 000cycles at 100% DoD and 10C fast charging = 6 min to 80% capacity.
Sorry to disappoint. But 360 Wh/L is so low that few automakers will be inclined to use this. There is no indication of the energy capacity of this technology, in the article. Makes me think that the energy capacity is about half of today's batteries.

18650 by Panasonic, volumetric energy density = 630 Wh/L
Gravimetric energy density = 263 Wh/kg
No problem :D I compared the current LTO technology with about 170Wh/l with this newcomer. If we used as example Nissan Leaf, the current LTO technology allows to install about 14kWh in its battery box. Which is not practically usable even with 6min ultra fast charging option. But this new LTO anode technology gives you about 28kWh and it is fully comparable with standard Nissan 30kWh battery (because with LTO anode technology you can use 100% capacity without problems with cycle life). And you still have 6min ultra fast charging option (of course you need a 300kW charging station). I can imagine that this could be interesting for taxis, pizza delivery and so one. I would personally prefer a 60kWh battery with regular 45 min fast charging as a regular driver, because the price of the battery 28kWh with LTO anode vs. 60kWh C(Si) anode will be almost the same.

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 07, 2017 5:38 am
by crazymanc
Hillhater wrote:pity they didnt state the Wh/L....but if i assume its similar to current LiCo cells, then that 943 Wh/kg would give approx 50 Wh in a 18650 size cell...or 4 times the current best , meaning about 10-12 Ah per cell ( if the voltage remains the same ?)
BUT.. 1322W/kg "best" power , would imply a output of less than 2C :| :cry:
Ah well, early days i guess !
How is that a problem? A 1C discharge of a 10-12Ah cell is already as good as something like the NCR18650GA/PF at ~3C.

If 2C of these new cells would be anything like 3C of the old ones (in the way then discharge curves compare) that'd make them ridiculously good. 20-25A discharge currents from one high capacity 18650? You could easily run 250 watt ebikes on one series string!

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 07, 2017 6:22 am
by liveforphysics
Hillhater wrote:pity they didnt state the Wh/L....but if i assume its similar to current LiCo cells, then that 943 Wh/kg would give approx 50 Wh in a 18650 size cell...or 4 times the current best , meaning about 10-12 Ah per cell ( if the voltage remains the same ?)
BUT.. 1322W/kg "best" power , would imply a output of less than 2C :| :cry:
Ah well, early days i guess !
True peak power is also when a cell voltage is pulled down to half its open circuit voltage, so in practice if it's 50% voltage sag at 2C, it's actually around a 1C useful cell ('which would still be ~25% voltage sag losses).

For a few years some lithium sulfur cells have been around with stupendous energy density >600Wh/kg, but the downside was always the poor native conductivity of the sulfur behaving like a substantial added series resistance, and poor mechanical stability from volumetric changes as it intercaltes and deintercalates lithium.

If asphalt solves the conducive issues and mechanical interface issues and cycling issues of using sulfur, even if they are 1C useful cells they still have the potential to be game changeing at the right energy density for longer range EV aircraft and long range commuter vehicles, as asphalt and sulfur are dirt cheap materials compared to exotic microscopic silicon particle doped graphite anode blends used in many modern cells today.

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 07, 2017 10:53 am
by e-beach
Wonder what the asphalt does to recyclability?

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 07, 2017 2:25 pm
by liveforphysics
e-beach wrote:Wonder what the asphalt does to recyclability?
Solvents would cut the asphalt more easily than any other binder material I'm aware of, and all the solvent can be closed-loop vapor distillation process.

My hunch is that the aspht and sulfur would not be worth recovery at today's recycling tech and prices for the raw materials.

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 07, 2017 6:48 pm
by e-beach
liveforphysics wrote:.......
My hunch is that the aspht and sulfur would not be worth recovery at today's recycling tech and prices for the raw materials.
Then it all gets dumped into a landfill when the cells reach the end of their lifespan. I suppose a recycling tax could be placed on them.

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 07, 2017 10:46 pm
by liveforphysics
e-beach wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:.......
My hunch is that the aspht and sulfur would not be worth recovery at today's recycling tech and prices for the raw materials.
Then it all gets dumped into a landfill when the cells reach the end of their lifespan. I suppose a recycling tax could be placed on them.
If the ingredients are something like beach sand and the waste stocks of petrochemical refining and/or stored fly ash piles from power plants, to make the grid storage batteries, it will be a while before its recycled.

As electricity today is likely to remain useful to store, batteries don't have a hard requirement to fail after 20-30years. As size and weight doesn't matter much, it should be possible to make energy storage systems that last millennia without needing to waste the time and expense to recycle

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 09, 2017 1:04 am
by LockH
Mmmm... "beach sand"... Mmmmm... :mrgreen:

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 09, 2017 1:40 am
by Buk___
This Toshiba SCiB with titanium niobium oxide anode looks both interesting and imminent (2019); I wonder how they'll be priced.

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 09, 2017 2:25 am
by LockH
^^ HeHe... "I wonder how they'll be priced." Might qualify as "COST per mile" over the life of the cells. Yah? :wink:

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 09, 2017 5:06 am
by Hillhater
Buk___ wrote:This Toshiba SCiB with titanium niobium oxide anode looks both interesting and imminent (2019); I wonder how they'll be priced.
Its a good idea to read the thread and do a search before posting... :wink:
From last weds..
chessir wrote:This Just In---https://www.google.com/url?q=https://ww ... LErTxpADIV

To be commercialized in 2019 Toshiba Scib - Prismatic

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 10, 2017 12:20 am
by zzoing
It would be a weird situation if they have batteries that last 3000 cycles with high capacity and that cost 3x as much inherently as current techs, so a car battery would be 40,000 dollars fixed cost but 3 times better.

The Asphalt leaching/nanotechnology/nanodeposition/electroplating sounds complicated.

The asphalt lithium prototype is probably 0.1g and as heavy as a fruit fly?

There are precedents of porous asphalt batteries from 2014 and 2016 in research journals, with stated gravimetry at 500mah / g^-1

Density wise, if it's a flake of sponge, it doesnt sound as dense as mouldable material. sponge isn't very pressable and mouldable.

I'm not very optimistic for the asphalt research, unless they have patented it. I think they even put graphene into the sponge first before putting the lithium on there. They leached the graphene with at least 1 acid and another product to purify and remove stuff from the asphalt.

There have previously been super performant forms of porous carbon form plant matter and coffee grounds, I don't know if they can be commercialized.

There are also porous asphalt sulphur battery research articles from 2 years ago.

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 10, 2017 2:19 am
by liveforphysics
zzoing wrote: I'm not very optimistic for the asphalt research, unless they have patented it..

A patent means you filled out some forms, and has no bearing on a thing being functional or viable or useful.

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 10, 2017 7:39 am
by Ypedal
What i want, is a battery that will last 10 years.... period.... give me a calendar life guarantee and i'm on that like stink to shoot.

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 10, 2017 9:19 am
by LockH
ESB "No suitable matches were found."... for Zap&Go?

Carbon-ion battery could mean rapid charging:
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-4 ... d-charging

Vid caption:
A new type of battery could let people charge gadgets, appliances and electric vehicles in seconds.

British start-up Zap&Go has developed carbon-ion supercapacitors that allow rapid charging.

The current version is not able to store much power, but the company hopes future generations will store much more.
V.Interested in the supercaps to do the "heavy lifting" at startups and up hills so don't much care re "not able to store much power"... by which time the batt "kicks in" to spin the motor and recharge the caps, ready for the next EVent. :wink:

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 10, 2017 11:53 am
by chessir
http://newatlas.com/sodium-ion-battery- ... ium/51682/

Touted as 80% cheaper , this would be my choice from Stanford.

New Journal: Joule (?)

Posted: Oct 12, 2017 10:31 am
by gogo
http://www.cell.com/joule/home

I didn't see anything posted about this.
What is Joule?
Joule, a sister journal to Cell, is a home for outstanding and insightful research, analysis and ideas addressing a key global challenge: the need for more sustainable energy.

Joule is a distinctive and forward-looking journal, bridging disciplines and scales of energy research. Joule connects all who are researching and analyzing the challenges — scientific, technical, economic, policy and social — of providing sustainable energy solutions.

Joule spans scales of energy research, from fundamental laboratory research into energy conversion and storage up to impactful analysis at the global level.

Joule will purposefully highlight and amplify the implications, challenges and opportunities of novel energy research for different groups working across the entire spectrum of the field.

Research areas will include but not be limited to:
Batteries and supercapacitors
Biofuels and biotechnology
Carbon capture and storage
Energy access, security, and behavior
Energy grids and networks
Energy-harvesting devices
Energy policy and economics
Fuel cells
Geothermal energy
Hydrogen storage and energy
Materials for energy systems
Nuclear power
Solar energy
Techno-economic analysis and life-cycle assessment
Transportation fuels
Wave energy, wind energy, and hydroelectricity

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 12, 2017 11:57 am
by LockH
^^ 8)

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 16, 2017 3:06 pm
by LockH
Air-Breathing Aqueous Sulfur Flow Battery anybuddy?

Air-Breathing Aqueous Sulfur Flow Battery for Ultralow-Cost Long-Duration Electrical Storage:
http://www.cell.com/joule/abstract/S254 ... 17)30032-6

Starts:
Highlights

•Chemical cost analyzed for 40 rechargeable couples developed over the past 60 years
•Aqueous sulfur/sodium/air system identified with ultralow chemical cost of ∼US$1/kWh
•Air-breathing flow battery architecture demonstrated at laboratory scale
•Techno-economic analysis shows installed cost is comparable with PHS (pumped hydroelectric storage) and CAES (underground compressed air energy storage)
... and:
Here, we demonstrate an ambient-temperature aqueous rechargeable flow battery that uses low-cost polysulfide anolytes in conjunction with lithium or sodium counter-ions, and an air- or oxygen-breathing cathode. The solution energy density, at 30–145 Wh/L depending on concentration and sulfur speciation range, exceeds current solution-based flow batteries, and the cost of active materials per stored energy is exceptionally low, ∼US$1/kWh when using sodium polysulfide. The projected storage economics parallel those for PHS and CAES but can be realized at higher energy density and with minimal locational constraints.
Huh. ESB "No suitable matches were found."... for anolytes. :mrgreen:

MIT's new flow battery breathes air to cut costs of renewable energy storage:
https://newatlas.com/air-breathing-battery/51720/

Image

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 17, 2017 9:33 am
by rumme
Ypedal wrote:What i want, is a battery that will last 10 years.... period.... give me a calendar life guarantee and i'm on that like stink to shoot.
Well such a " guarantee" is highly unlikely, considering that some people may use a battery for 200 cycles per year while others may only use it for 75 cycles per year.

Giving a guarantee on complete charge/discharge cycles would make more sense, as long as the battery had a built in " counter" to keep track of those cycles { kinda like a hour meter on a backhoe} . Of course the battery company would have to come up with some technology that guaranteed the batter cycle meter, could not be altered by the owner along with having some technology inside the battery to inform the manufacturer if the battery was abused in any of the charge/discharge cycles which would void the warranty.

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 17, 2017 9:50 am
by LockH
Also? May wish to add that "expected ambient temps" thingee in there (re "useful life").

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 17, 2017 7:36 pm
by Hillhater
rumme wrote:
Ypedal wrote:What i want, is a battery that will last 10 years.... period.... give me a calendar life guarantee and i'm on that like stink to shoot.
Well such a " guarantee" is highly unlikely, considering that some people may use a battery for 200 cycles per year while others may only use it for 75 cycles per year.

Giving a guarantee on complete charge/discharge cycles would make more sense, as long as the battery had a built in " counter" to keep track of those cycles { kinda like a hour meter on a backhoe} . Of course the battery company would have to come up with some technology that guaranteed the batter cycle meter, could not be altered by the owner along with having some technology inside the battery to inform the manufacturer if the battery was abused in any of the charge/discharge cycles which would void the warranty.
For a battery that might be a " WattHour " meter to record the total Whs discharged during its life.
But then you have other effects like DOD, charge/Discharge rates, temperature conditions , etc etc..all of which have been shown to affect battery life.
But why would you expect a 10 yr guarantee on a battery ?... you dont get one on any of the other major purchases in your life, like Cars, houses, etc. ?

Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Posted: Oct 24, 2017 8:19 am
by fechter
Ypedal wrote:What i want, is a battery that will last 10 years.... period.... give me a calendar life guarantee and i'm on that like stink to shoot.
Lithium Titanate is supposed to last 25 years, but the energy density sucks.