Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
GreatScott!   10 mW

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cost of lithium

Post by GreatScott! » Dec 12 2007 7:26pm

Kind of off on a tangent here, I am just wondering why Lipo is so expensive. @19$US per A123 cell how can this be? what costs go into making these puppies. Are we paying for the production processes or is it just that raw lithium is so expensive?

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BiGH   100 kW

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Post by BiGH » Dec 12 2007 7:40pm

two words:

research and development.

for example:
intel processors are fairly cheap to manufacture. (i'm not sure of the going rate of silicon but its much less than what we're paying). The cost to intel is creating the manufacturing plants required to create the processors and designing and testing the damm things.

a123 cells are expensive because they use a proprietary nano treatment on the plates in the cells. this had to be developed, and as such they inflate the price to cover the development costs and give a healthy profit. In theory they will go down in price, but they don't really need to - they are still competitive. They also have to pay for patent protection on the treatment (assuming they have a patent or 3), so they're protecting their costs.


and finally they're not *That* much more expensive than regular cells.

many ebike batteries are around the $500 mark inc charger for a 36v 12ah pack. 4 dewalt batteries in parallel produces a 33v 9.2ah pack (can be had for around $400 using dewalt packs) plug a bms($50 from ggoodrem) and 10 single cell chargers ($150) and its what $100 more than the competition!
Bike / Motor: Electric specalized rock hopper with Crystalyte 504 / 26"
Batt: Yesa 72v (36v*2) (getting 6.7ah) LiFEPO4 in a Topeak bag. OR 1x eMTB 48v 20ah pack (straps to frame) -depending on range requirements.
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Current Prob: Bike is in parts getting painted / drying / testing replacement BMS
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Li-titanate storage balances Indianapolis power grid

Post by paultrafalgar » Jul 10 2008 8:49am

If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? Albert Einstein
A paranoid is someone who has SOME idea of what's going on. Allen Ginsberg(?)
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Re: Li-titanate storage balances Indianapolis power grid

Post by paultrafalgar » Jul 10 2008 10:55am

What's particular about that type of battery is that it can be recharged in 10 minutes and cycled 20000 times if they are to be believed. Now if they became very popular the grid would have a problem charging cars and trucks in that time (too much power drain). But for electric bikes it's perfect. How to get hold of some? :twisted:
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? Albert Einstein
A paranoid is someone who has SOME idea of what's going on. Allen Ginsberg(?)
If the greatest pleasure is giving, be selfish - give pleasure.

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Re: Li-titanate storage balances Indianapolis power grid

Post by paultrafalgar » Jul 10 2008 11:07am

And here's a reference to the Toshiba Scib Battery:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05 ... velop.html
also based on Lithium Titanate and specifically for HEV applications.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? Albert Einstein
A paranoid is someone who has SOME idea of what's going on. Allen Ginsberg(?)
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Patriot   10 kW

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The Navy's new battery

Post by Patriot » Sep 10 2008 5:13am

I just had to post this press release.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALTAIR NANOTECHNOLOGIES DEVELOPS REVOLUTIONARY BATTERY FOR U.S. NAVY

Goal: Reduce dependency on costly jet fuel for back-up turbines and reduce carbon emissions

RENO, NV -- September 8, 2008 -- Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. (NASDAQ: ALTI), a leading provider of advanced nanomaterials technology used in power and energy systems and other applications, today announced that it has completed the 500th full depth cycle of a unique lithium titanate battery developed for the U.S. Navy. Altair's $2.5 million contract is funded as part of a $3.5 million United States Navy program that includes independent product testing by the Navy. Additional funding of $5 million has been approved by Congress for FY 2008.

The Mark 0, Characterization Module allows the Navy to test and better understand the unique properties of Altair batteries. For example, capacity tests show that the battery has lost only about one percent of total capacity—a remarkable result, and highlights one of the benefits (long life) of the technology. It is anticipated that early next year Altair will deliver a 1MW battery-based energy storage demonstrator.

"This is an important milestone in our battery development," said Terry M. Copeland, Altair's chief executive officer. "Proving out our unprecedented battery technology for a large-scale operation like a Navy destroyer paves the way for a safe, less costly, and environmentally sustainable substitute for turbines that use increasingly costly imported oil.

"We are proud to be working with the U.S. Navy and assisting in the launch of a new battery backup system," continued Copeland. "Given the number of ships to which Altair's technology could be applied, this electrical storage and rapid power delivery system could reduce the Navy's consumption of fuel by tens of millions of gallons each year. Once proven, our technology could be used by, not only the U.S. Navy, but commercial and foreign buyers," added Copeland.

With an Altair battery installed as an uninterruptible power supply (UPS), a vessel could avoid the cost of keeping the backup generator online. If there is a problem with the primary generator, the battery would provide enough power to get a second unit up and online.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"completed the 500th full depth cycle...... the battery has lost only about one percent of total capacity—a remarkable result"

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


Apparently 11ah per cell. Fast recharge in 10 minutes.

I can't wait to put a bunch of these on my Ebike. Only question I have, is when?

Image
Last edited by Patriot on Sep 10 2008 8:41am, edited 2 times in total.
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olaf-lampe   10 kW

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Re: The Navy's new battery

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 10 2008 5:18am

Li-Titanate is more in the range of 2.2-2.3 Volt. The low voltage compared to Li-Ion is one reason for their long life.
-Olaf

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Re: The Navy's new battery

Post by swbluto » Sep 14 2008 8:00pm

These miracle energy storage technologies will probably start popping up in 5-10 years or so. First the technology is marketed towards large-scale consumers(like the navy) and it then eventually trickles down to consumer products through various channels(Whether that be chinese pop-up companies or an established battery brand).

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Re: Li-titanate storage balances Indianapolis power grid

Post by swbluto » Sep 15 2008 1:44am

This at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =14&t=6380 seems related. They seem to be making a similar "Long-life" claim though my linear extrapolation puts it at 80% of original capacity at 10,000 cycles. Since it seems capacity degradation is parabolic(at least for SLA: Maybe the rate of capacity degradation is different for other chemistries due to whatever underlying processes), it's probably somewhere around 6000-7000 which still isn't bad.

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Re: The Navy's new battery

Post by swbluto » Sep 15 2008 1:57am

http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/nanosafe.php

It seems this sports car is already using these batteries and it's supposed to go on sale sometime this year(or has it already?). So we might see this chemistry sooner than later. Regardless, a linear extrapolation of 1%/500 cycles leads to 80% original capacity at 10,000 cycles. Since there's some likelihood the degradation is parabolic, you might see somewhere around 6000-8000 cycles which is about on par with a123's batteries, which also owes its performance/longevity due to "nano-technology" at the anode. So, I'm thinking we'll be seeing more and more of these "nano"-batteries in the near-future of various chemistries. That means... THE RACE IS ON!

You'll probably see something, then, within the next 3-5 years. Possibly sooner from Chinese pop-up companies.

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Re: The Navy's new battery

Post by nutsandvolts » Sep 15 2008 12:48pm

.
Last edited by nutsandvolts on Oct 17 2009 4:44am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sacman   10 kW

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Re: The Navy's new battery

Post by Sacman » Sep 15 2008 2:39pm

Patriot wrote:
"completed the 500th full depth cycle...... the battery has lost only about one percent of total capacity—a remarkable result"

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


Apparently 11ah per cell. Fast recharge in 10 minutes.

I can't wait to put a bunch of these on my Ebike. Only question I have, is when?

Image

That one pack is 11ah! I wonder how much it weighs (or charge to weight density)?

And is it resistant to thermal runaway like LiFePO4 batts?

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Re: The Navy's new battery

Post by swbluto » Sep 15 2008 6:17pm

nutsandvolts wrote:
swbluto wrote:These miracle energy storage technologies will probably start popping up in 5-10 years or so.
Where have I heard this before? People were saying the same thing in the late 90s when we were excited about LiPo and strapping computers to our bodies. I have been watching tech for too long to buy into any "miracle" just around the bend ideas. I was supposed to be able to download an entire movie in three seconds too. Also, a few other observations:

Notice how the toner industry dwarfs the printer industry. There really isn't a printer industry! It's all about toner, expensive toner. It is a similar situation with batteries. Replacement battery for my laptop that lasts only one hour is $300. My point is that even if there are much better batteries available, they're not going to be cheap. Finally, I have been suckered into "future excitement" about tech way too many times, to the point where my measuring stick is: can I buy it now, from who, at what price? Many companies make miracle tech announcements that are purely R&D, they never become products. One example is flexible LCD displays, wear them on your shirt! Cool but not a product you can buy. They have done in it a lab, yes it works, but that is all.

Also these navy batteries, if available to consumers at all, would be priced way out of reality. It is defence industry, which almost by definition means megabucks.
I didn't say availability = most economical. :D

But my "miracle" technology was slightly sarcastic. I don't think "10,000" makes it a miracle as A123's are already around there... but it'd be kind of nice. With competition between different advanced technologies, it'd eventually become "affordable" from the "long term" view-point compared to contemporary technologies as opposed to... "What are the upfront costs?" and have it crap out in a third the time but cost 1/2 as much.

It only seems inevitable that chemical-based energy storage technology will be pushed with our advancements in nanotechnology and that *something* else will be developed. The change in battery technologies have been kind of dramatic in the last decade, as compared to the preceding 3 decades before that(and the preceding 5 decades before that), and with continued and increased interest in alternate technologies, it almost seems inevitable that something(s) else will come into play.

Right now, I'm just going to wait until my LiFePO4 finally craps out(Projecting 2-4 years from now) and I'll be investing in the best-value-technology then and I wouldn't be surprised if it were a better value than the best-value product
available today. That tends to be the long-term nature of markets as history supports(Although 2-4 years is a bit short as it may be vulnerable to "short-term" fluctuations like Lithium availability and other market vulnerabilities.).

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Re: The Navy's new battery

Post by Patriot » Sep 16 2008 3:44pm

Sacman wrote:
Patriot wrote:
"completed the 500th full depth cycle...... the battery has lost only about one percent of total capacity—a remarkable result"

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


Apparently 11ah per cell. Fast recharge in 10 minutes.

I can't wait to put a bunch of these on my Ebike. Only question I have, is when?

That one pack is 11ah! I wonder how much it weighs (or charge to weight density)?

And is it resistant to thermal runaway like LiFePO4 batts?
I was listening to an interview from one of the companies reps they had on the radio. Apparently, car manufacturers are interested, but they are a little more expensive than A123's right now. So, it's all about money. Latest I heard on the net, was GM is "investigating" them for future possible use in the Volt, or similar vehicles.

The big advantage they have, is they can be charged up to 80% in only 10 minutes. 15 min total. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Also, the guy said they only have about a 30 deg F rise during rapid charge and max current discharge. I think he said temp peaked around 120F, or something like that. Well within safety margins by design. That's pretty darn good considering what they put them through.

They have a website, and do answer questions through email for anyone interested.

I emailed them and asked about personal sale, but they aren't selling to general population yet. They did admit they will most likely have general sales within a few years once many of their existing contracts are satisfied.
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317-volts / 480-amps from 96 cells - iron-phosphate, lithium

Post by myzter » Oct 10 2008 12:55pm

###########

Single Battery Cell Data
· Capacity 160 Ah
· Operating voltage 4,25 V charging, 2,5 Volt discharging
· Nominal Voltage 3,3 Volt
· Max. Temperature Level 80 °C
· Life cycle 3000 charging cycles
· Self-discharge under 3 % per month
· Weight per Unit 5,6 kg

maximum output level of 150 kW

over 80 percent efficiency over the majority of its power range, extending 90 per cent in the upper end of its
power range

##########

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/10/rufs ... aks-cover/

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World’s First Chlorophyll Organic Battery Runs on Any Liquid

Post by myzter » Nov 03 2008 2:35pm

Here is the best link I could find describing :
http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_c ... ?id=779449

"But, the battery's flexibility does come with a catch: it only produces half the power of a conventional battery. But, power duration problem will be solved in future, said Liao "
/ quantum effects improve the efficiency of plant photosynthesis in a way that classical physics cannot allow
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Re: World’s First Chlorophyll Organic Battery Runs on Any Liquid

Post by cerewa » Nov 03 2008 3:30pm

it looks likely that they're nonrechargeable, and they may never become rechargeable.

half the "power" may actually refer to half the energy density...
...relative to alkaline nonrechargeable cells maybe?

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New one-off Energizer Zinc Air Prismatic battery

Post by myzter » Dec 08 2008 5:35pm

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zht ... highlight=

...
highest energy density of any consumer portable power solution (either disposable or rechargeable) with up to three times (3X) more runtime compared to similarly sized alkaline or lithium ion batteries.
/ quantum effects improve the efficiency of plant photosynthesis in a way that classical physics cannot allow
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Re: New one-off Energizer Zinc Air Prismatic battery

Post by Ypedal » Dec 08 2008 5:45pm

Not rechargable... doh.
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Re: New one-off Energizer Zinc Air Prismatic battery

Post by paultrafalgar » Dec 09 2008 10:36am

Of no interest if not rechargeable. But, out of curiosity, isn't that the battery that EbikeMaui used to drive him up the volcano?
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? Albert Einstein
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Re: New one-off Energizer Zinc Air Prismatic battery

Post by Ypedal » Dec 09 2008 10:59am

ES site status page:
http://www.ypedal.com/ES/ES.htm
----------------
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Boston-Power: The Next Generation of Li-ion Batteries

Post by myzter » Dec 10 2008 11:02am

http://www.boston-power.com/boston-powe ... ttery.html
... Sonata is the longest lasting and fastest charging Li-ion battery cell available. Its patent-pending, whole-system design makes it capable of benefiting a wide range of end-applications – from consumer electronics to transportation.

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Re: Boston-Power: The Next Generation of Li-ion Batteries

Post by oofnik » Dec 10 2008 8:52pm

I was totally just about to post that. :shock:
I couldn't find any info about the chemistry on their website, but they have a PDF with a pretty pathetic looking discharge curve at 2C. Obviously these are high capacity cells, not high power.

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Re: Boston-Power: The Next Generation of Li-ion Batteries

Post by dogman dan » Dec 11 2008 8:17am

Long as you don't overvolt the laptop, they should work fine. :roll: As far as I go, I could use a 1 c battery with the pack size i have to carry.

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fuel-cells by the end of 2009

Post by myzter » Dec 11 2008 9:06am

http://www.mtimicrofuelcells.com/news/a ... asp?id=348
...At the core of MTI Micro´s compact charger prototype is its proprietary third generation Mobion® Chip, a design architecture that embodies a reduction in the size, complexity, and cost of fuel cell construction. These changes drive improvements in reliability, manufacturability and low cost products. The Chip is based on 100% methanol fuel, passive, direct methanol fuel cell technology, and integrates a power module with fluid conditioning that allows the system to run in a wide environmental range including temperatures from 0oC to 40oC at any humidity level — an industry standard and a requirement of many OEMs who want to integrate fuel cells into their products. In laboratory testing, this third generation Mobion® Chip demonstrated power of over 62 mW/cm2 while producing more than 1800 Watt Hours Per Kilogram (Wh/kg) of energy from the direct methanol fuel feed.
...According to the company, you can charge a cell phone ten times on a single charge. The Mobion charges pocket-size gadgets, and itself fits into a pocket. It's powered by a 100% methanol fuel-based chip, and is based on the proprietary intellectual property of a whopping 110 patents.
...MTI MicroFuel Cells says the Mobion should ship by the end of next year. But a recent company regulatory filing says they have funds to survive only until the end of January unless they stop funding the fuel cell product (all current revenue comes from other business). The company gets funding from Samsung, and that company could inject more cash into MTI, or pursue an acquisition.
Medis Technologies Power Pack is the world’s first consumer fuel cell product...
Medis Xtreme Charger Starter Kit (Amazon.com) http://www.amazon.com/Medis-Xtreme-Char ... 537&sr=1-1

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